Speaker Placement and K-Horn (Can it image?)

[mikebse2a3]

The problem is Imaging is easily masked and unless you have a reasonably good size (room acoustically speaking) and attention to any acoustical treatments that might be needed in the room then KHorns (or any speaker for that matter) will not give you all that they are fully capable of. For proper Imaging to develope you (must delay and/or reduce the SPL Level of) the early reflections from the room so that they don't mask the the imaging cues of the sound you are trying to reproduce and also that there is good diffusion over as wide a frequency range as you can acheive for a given size room.

You don't have to convince me about the room, the need for a good recording and so forth. I know.

Look at the question from every angle, the khorn placement even in the best of room will always be an handicap for "outstanding" imaging. Other good speakers, especially single point sources will have the advantage, especially for having that nearfield 3D "holographic" type of imaging.

Jeff I have to disagree because I have heard the Khorns give outstanding "holographic" imaging.

The two best reproductions image wise that I have heard was Klipschorns and Quad ESL 63 US Monitores.

The Quads(An Electrostatic Speaker Designed to be electrically manipulated to be equilivent to a point source for those not familiar with the design) as you described were setup well away from the walls creating a nearfield listening situation. As you said they reproduced a very detailed image and very lifelike. Holographic is a good description of the effect.

The Klipschorns on several occasions that I heard them in the above room I described also had that Holographic Effect and they had the Dynamics/Impact to make the illusion even more believable with demanding dynamic recordings that the Quads couldn't approach.

The Klipschorns by being located tight in their corners and with the controled directivity of the Horns is a very good compromise in dealing with the VERY early reflections from the speakers since they for the most part either attenuate the level of the VERY early reflections due to the MID/High Horns Directivity and the intimate combining of the Corners Mirror Image of the KHorns Woofer section.

Neither the KHORN or the QUAD is perfect and they both demand respect of their particular needs/designs to pull off the Holographic Imaging Illusion.

My Real Point is untill early reflections are dealt with by using room dimensions and treatments and speaker design and setup a person will not acheive great imaging or for that matter good tonal balance and clarity thats available in the recordings. Many around here blame alot of there problems with their sound on their speakers and componets when the real CULPRIT IS THE ROOM AND SETUP!

mike tn[]

[DrWho]

If you feel the epitomy of imaging is to be had with khorns, then you

obviously haven't listened to the right speakers. The few

electrostatics I've heard would most certainly not be in my category of

good imaging either. I wish I could provide specific models, but I

can't for the life of me remember them right now (which I suppose is a

cop out, but I wasn't paying attention to model numbers in my

pre-klipsch days). They were always direct-radiators, often but not always small single driver or small

2-way speakers. Position in the room was irrelevant. Off the

walls, in the corners, it was always better. Heck, I would argue my

Chorus II's are capable of better imaging than khorns - and I would

argue that my Marantz 940's (4-way with direct radiators) are even

better than my Chorus II's. Yet I prefer to listen to my Chorus II's

over the 940's because they're more dynamic, etc etc....but bringing

other variables into the mix isn't fair when you're trying to compare

one signle aspect of performance.

And how do you know that you aren't making the acoustics of your room

compensate for deficiencies with the speakers? In light of some

psychoacoustic effects, I would argue that there is a great deal more

to room acoustics and its effects on imaging than simply dealing with

the sound from the speakers... [] (so basically, everything being

discussed in that thread mas started doesn't touch on any of the

psychoacoustics). For the sake of being specific, the largest issue

comes from the presence of two acosutical environments once the music

starts playing. This alone prevents the possibility of true "imaging"

with any speaker. Our brains are great pattern recognition devices and

often can ignore one of the two environments, but this is still a

fabricated false result - one which is going to be vastly different

than what was originally intended. Whether or not you enjoy this result

is purely subjective, but objectively it's not accurate playback.

Yes, there is a lot that can be blaimed on the room acoustics and

recordings and every other part of the signal chain - but the khorn is

not perfect. Heck, not even the Jubilee or any speaker is perfect. What

would your response be if I told you that you could modify your

speakers such that more recordings suddenly image better? Would it not

be a fair assessment to claim that the modification improved the

imaging abilities of the speakers? Just to be direct about it....maybe

so many recordings don't image well because the speakers are screwing

up in some aspect of their performance...[]

I just want

to say that I've heard the khorns image extremely well (to the point

that I was almost sick after opening my eyes), but they only do it with

such few recordings....and I wouldn't blaim the recordings that don't

image well because they image well on every other system and setup I've

heard them on...

Anyways, that's just my opinion and hopefully it will be taken with the

proper inflection - not trying to step on any toes or anything like

that.

[Painful Reality]

Other good speakers, especially single point sources will have the advantage, especially for having that nearfield 3D "holographic" type of imaging.

Jeff, That might be what I am looking for. I think I also know the solution but they are too expensive for me, unless you are planning to get rid of some heavy speakers before the move.[6]

Kudret

The Lamhorns 1.8 are moving with me for sure!

Be sure to hear a pair if interested to go with these. Like every other speakers, including (yes yes) the khorns, they come with their drawbacks too!

[Painful Reality]

The two best reproductions image wise that I have heard was Klipschorns and Quad ESL 63 US Monitores.

Well I guess there are no other choice than to settle for a "I'm glad these are working out for you"!

[mikebse2a3]

If you feel the epitomy of imaging is to be had with khorns, then you obviously haven't listened to the right speakers. The few electrostatics I've heard would most certainly not be in my category of good imaging either. I wish I could provide specific models, but I can't for the life of me remember them right now (which I suppose is a cop out, but I wasn't paying attention to model numbers in my pre-klipsch days). They were always direct-radiators, often but not always small single driver or small 2-way speakers. Position in the room was irrelevant. Off the walls, in the corners, it was always better. Heck, I would argue my Chorus II's are capable of better imaging than khorns - and I would argue that my Marantz 940's (4-way with direct radiators) are even better than my Chorus II's. Yet I prefer to listen to my Chorus II's over the 940's because they're more dynamic, etc etc....but bringing other variables into the mix isn't fair when you're trying to compare one signle aspect of performance.

Mike

I'm not sure how best to respond to you other than to say I've got a very wide experience with many different models and types of speakers and even the small two ways types you mention and my experience says differently.

My point to you is I'm not aware of any speaker that can ignore all the factors you stated and be capable of excellent imaging on good recordings that attention to trying to preserve an image of a live event was made.

And how do you know that you aren't making the acoustics of your room compensate for deficiencies with the speakers? In light of some psychoacoustic effects, I would argue that there is a great deal more to room acoustics and its effects on imaging than simply dealing with the sound from the speakers... [] (so basically, everything being discussed in that thread mas started doesn't touch on any of the psychoacoustics). For the sake of being specific, the largest issue comes from the presence of two acosutical environments once the music starts playing. This alone prevents the possibility of true "imaging" with any speaker. Our brains are great pattern recognition devices and often can ignore one of the two environments, but this is still a fabricated false result - one which is going to be vastly different than what was originally intended. Whether or not you enjoy this result is purely subjective, but objectively it's not accurate playback.

Thats the point! You must work with your rooms acoustics to bring out the best of any type of speaker wether you choose to call a design choice a defficiency or not is a matter of opinion.

As far as Two acoustical enviroments are concerned I agree and there will always be some influence from our rooms and so yes no two rooms/systems will ever be completely the same.

Mike it's all Stereophoney and an illusion at best!!!

Yes, there is a lot that can be blaimed on the room acoustics and recordings and every other part of the signal chain - but the khorn is not perfect. Heck, not even the Jubilee or any speaker is perfect. What would your response be if I told you that you could modify your speakers such that more recordings suddenly image better? Would it not be a fair assessment to claim that the modification improved the imaging abilities of the speakers? Just to be direct about it....maybe so many recordings don't image well because the speakers are screwing up in some aspect of their performance...[]

Who said the Khorns or Jubilees were perfect? All I've said is I've experienced The KHorns Imaging Abilities ranking up there with some of the Best Speakers reportedly to be excellent at imaging.

I'm saying you want hear the KHorn Image well if the same details necessary for any speaker to image well isn't attended to.

I just want to say that I've heard the khorns image extremely well (to the point that I was almost sick after opening my eyes), but they only do it with such few recordings....and I wouldn't blaim the recordings that don't image well because they image well on every other system and setup I've heard them on...

Anyways, that's just my opinion and hopefully it will be taken with the proper inflection - not trying to step on any toes or anything like that.

No problem Mike all I can do is report my experience as an individual who again has been in this hobby for many years and listened to many of the highly resprected brands and types of speakers.

As often happens in discussions like this people seem to get to defensive. The best we can do is share experiences and knowledge and thats all I wanted to do. When people say things that don't fit my experience as in the case of the Khorn here then I feel the need to report my experience(isn't this what the forum is about) which again is KHorns Imaging suffers when the acoustics of a room aren't proper just like any other speaker but when things are right they can Reproduce a Very Believable Image.

mike tn[]

[mikebse2a3]

The two best reproductions image wise that I have heard was Klipschorns and Quad ESL 63 US Monitores.

Well I guess there are no other choice than to settle for a "I'm glad these are working out for you"!

Appreciate the good thoughts Jeff!!!

[redwood forest]

The problem with Khorns being placed in the corner of any room is that the sweet spot has to be 90 degrees to the two speakers. No wonder there is a problem with imaging. Speakers are suppose to be in an equilateral triangle with the sweet spot in order to get proper imaging. Even with center speakers, the setup won't work. If the sweet spot is facing all three speakers, the center speakers will be too close, the Khorns will be too far away, and the listening field is still 90 degrees which too wide for realism. Do you think recording studios set up microphones 90 degrees to the listening position? I don't think so!

The only way that Khorns will provide proper imaging is to place them within an equilateral triangle with the sweet spot. In other words place them 60 degrees apart. OK so what do you do about the 32 Hz bass without corners? Now you have to create a false corner behind each Khorn with material dense enough to reflect the bass and not resonate. Two inches of dense fiberboard glued together will work perfectly.

In my humble opinion, imaging is still lacking with the above ideal setup. Place two LaScalas in the center with each LaScala connected to it's adjacent Khorn to create two chennel stereo, and you will have imaging beyond belief. I know, because this is my setup.

[Groomlakearea51]

In my humble opinion, imaging is still lacking with the above ideal setup. Place two LaScalas in the center with each LaScala connected to it's adjacent Khorn to create two chennel stereo, and you will have imaging beyond belief. I know, because this is my setup.

Only offered as "IMHO", but based on years of experience in overcoming problems with odd room sizes and geometry of the rooms (until we build the new house...!) Yes, it works, quite well (I have, essentially, the same "array" system). Depending upon the difference in the distance between the Klipschhorns and the LaScala's, the placement of the LaScala's relative to the horizontal "plane" of the array, and controlling the LS's SPL, the room can be slightly "tuned" in terms of directivity, and depth of the "nice" imaging area.

[psg]

The two best reproductions image wise that I have heard was Klipschorns and Quad ESL 63 US Monitores.

Well I guess there are no other choice than to settle for a "I'm glad these are working out for you"

Appreciate the good thoughts Jeff!!!

Count me in as well as one who gets fantastic imaging with KHorns. The speakers disappear with just about any CD I throw at 'em. No fancy amplification required either. Maybe I'm just lucky (Darn lucky!)