DrWho Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 Yes I did. I just finally got my computer back from the shop today and am now trying to catch up on emails and homework and all that fun stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Meagain, I use a RSW-15 Klipsch subwoofer with Klipshorns SOMETIMES. I cut it in at 40 Hz (the lowest low pass available) precisely because at a higher lowpass, the tight, clean response of the KHorns are degraded, just as you predicted. I also keep it 1 to 3 dB below the level of the Khorns, so the clean attack of the Khorns will predominate) from 38 Hz for some very big bass drums, on up to 150 or 200 for various instruments and combinations. People tell me that although the big bass drum of timpani fundamentals may be as low as 38, the sound of the impact -- of beater hitting drum head -- is actually higher, and well into the Khorn's best range. And here is what may be the most important thing: We use the bass enhancement setting on the preamp, that allows the Khorns to keep responding all the way down, without any attenuation, even though the RSW-15 is joining them below about 40. It only took me about 14 hours of moving the sub around and playing with the phase switch and the sub level to get good integration. SOMETIMES? How often do I use the sub? On DVD movies, virtually always, because of the ubiquitous Bass Machine they can't resist using. On CDs, anywhere from 3 out of 4 times to 1 out of 4 times ... the CDs are so damn variable in every way imaginable. Eventually, every CD gets a sticker spelling out the ideal setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Eventually, every CD gets a sticker spelling out the ideal setting. I am not laughing at you... I am laughing WITH you.. My kinda guy! hahahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 I should start doing that with my movies and DVD-A discs. All of the volumes and sub settings are different, and I'm always fidgeting until I get it right. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 WHO!!! "Yep, even khorns need subwoofers - but that's like signing your death warrant here on the forum...I'll go get my rope ready." Hahahah I can prove that with the RSW 15" in most if not all movies..98% of the time. It is awesome.. Anyone saying you do not need a great sub in any HT application is kidding themselves. Now with music... I prefer them off 90% of the time.. Go Figure? OK, Hang me too! What forum is this? Agreed for HT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 How big do these fonts go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 A pipe organ can go well below the range of even most subs, as long as the recording can record it, so with some music you might need a great sub to feel all of the bass, cause at that low of a level hearing isn't exactly what you are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Megain, Oldtimer, Who, etc. A CHURCH pipe organ's biggest pipe usually produces 32 HZ. A THEATER organ sometimes has a 16 Hz pipe. In the old Fox Theater in San Francisco (torn down by shortsighted Ferengi in 1962) the 16 Hz pipe used to cause plaster to fall from the ceiling, so they put up a net to catch it. The theatre would seem to roll back and forth a bit, the walls would creak, and out-of-towners would wonder if this was the beginning of The Big One. I'm not sure if there were "beats" at 1/2 the frequency, but I don't think so .... I heard of a theater somewhere that had two 16 Hz pipes, so (do I understand this correctly?) if they weren't tuned to exactly the same frequency, there might be beats at 8 Hz, or so? A theater like that might knock itself down. Grace Cathedral in S.F. had two organs -- one at either end of the cathedral that could answer one another antiphonally. Outrageous! One reason I turn the RSW -15 sub off some of the time on Classical and Jazz recordings, is that too much "Original Hall Rumble" comes through during quiet passages. Even the Klipschorns alone sometimes reproduce too much room rumble, and too many cluncks, booms and pulses as the conductor tromps around on the podium. Some of my organ CDs have very little deep bass. Can anyone recommend some? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Duke, just because the horn "cuts off" at a frequency doesn't mean it's a brick wall filter and drops off instantly. I have heard it mentioned that it's basically behaving like a direct radiator below the cutoff - the K33 is a 97ish dB sensitive speaker? It's comparable to lots of PA systems out there. Soooooooo.... YOU are saying ... 10dB of EQ ..... is OK...?????? [:^)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 I get it. I was just pointing out that if you want to reproduce frequencies that low a sub is the beast for the job. I also understand that reported response is +/- 3db. Have you seen the youtube video of the carpet flying up at very low frequency? Its funny but true. Its more air moving you feel than hear. As for the big one, that's a risk people take, we live on a violent planet, been saying it to my sister in law on the big island of hawaii for years, i think she might be starting to believe me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Some of my organ CDs have very little deep bass. Can anyone recommend some? Just organ or any music in general with deep bass? Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon Massive Attack, pretty much any album - "Intertia Creeps" and "Angel" are really good songs to demonstrate the dissapearance of melodyCirque du Soleil - Le Best of Yes , not sure of any albums but "starship trooper" is probably the most insane of their deep bass [] Cell Dweller, Crystal Method, Moby, Ayreon, Nightwish, VNV Nation, just to name a few more bands...most of which aren't everyone's cup of tea though. For what it's worth - there is nothing inherant about low frequencies that magically makes them able to cause structural damage - even at very loud listening levels. Wind, for example, could be considered an extremely low frequency - like on the order of a few Hz. And it's amplitude is extremely large, especially on a very windy day and I bet you don't see the church being blown away. All that to say, the reason the place was "falling apart" probably had much more to do with resonance, or possibly mechanical conduction from the facilities providing the necessary air pressure to fill the pipe. I think I lost them (harddrive failure just a few weeks ago), but I recorded quite a few songs being performed on a very nice and expensive grand piano in a hall designed for recording. Pretty much just a single mic very very carefully placed. To convince myself of some of the numbers, I messed around with a high-pass filter in the digital domain that I could instantly turn on and off. The system I was monitoring on was good to around 22Hz and I could tell the difference with a filter as low as 18Hz...was it huge? No, but it was bigger than the differences any fancy wires or other "audiophool tweaks" one might make. I was monitoring at 85dB which is a bit loud, but it's the start of a good linear range of our ears (Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves). I think the most interesting thing is that you would notice the most difference in the midrange clarity (and no, it was not due to distortion in the filters). But when you consider the complex nature of sinusoidal waves of any type, then it should be quickly intuitive - even if it's beyond the scope of the audible range. Bringing the volume down (say around 70dB) made the differences much smaller. I usually listen at home between 55 and 60dB and I can still tell the difference between Chorus II running large and then adding a sub to fill in below 40Hz. I've also measured my system and can show that I'm not running the subs too hot (if anything, they're about 1dB down). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Soooooooo.... YOU are saying ... 10dB of EQ ..... is OK...?????? [:^)] I wanna say heck no, but in light of the fact that just about any PA spec considers the -10dB point the limit of its usablity, then I'll have to say yes. [6] I really hate discussions involving general claims and blanket statements - especially when it pertains to specs / measurements. It's all about compromise [6] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 resonance: as in sympathetic and parasympathetic frequencies? Starship Trooper: Baaaaaaaarrrubaaaa! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Soooooooo.... YOU are saying ... 10dB of EQ ..... is OK...?????? [:^)] I wanna say heck no, but in light of the fact that just about any PA spec considers the -10dB point the limit of its usablity, then I'll have to say yes. [6] I really hate discussions involving general claims and blanket statements - especially when it pertains to specs / measurements. It's all about compromise [6] Noooooo ... Who .... YOU have to take Position ....[6] 10 dB EQ ... yes, or NO ../??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Pulled out The Yes Album last night and gave Starship Trooper a spin. Yeah, there was that bass that used to make me think the tunes on that album could grumble along like a bulldozer. Unstoppable bass! Pat on the Island Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Soooooooo.... YOU are saying ... 10dB of EQ ..... is OK...?????? [:^)] I wanna say heck no, but in light of the fact that just about any PA spec considers the -10dB point the limit of its usablity, then I'll have to say yes. [6] I really hate discussions involving general claims and blanket statements - especially when it pertains to specs / measurements. It's all about compromise [6] Noooooo ... Who .... YOU have to take Position ....[6] 10 dB EQ ... yes, or NO ../??? Bah, it's an acceptable situation considering the sensitivity of the system where it's "down" will be comparable to that of any other system out there - meaning you're just getting less distortion at the higher frequencies and the same amount at the low end. Any real PA system would be using dedicated subwoofers anyway so the drop in output could easily be filled in. Now would I use lascalas for PA? Probably not - I think there's better and more controlled options out there for the same price that also happen to be smaller and capable of more SPL. But if I was handed a pair of lascalas and told to mix for a good band, I have no doubt everything would sound just fine - even without subs (provided I didn't royally screw something up behind the board). Heck, I can think of a lot of music with khorns that would sound just fine without a sub too. I would still argue that it's not accurate playback, but that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed. And as many mentioned - they listen to source material with faults in the low-end that are distracting and brought out by the better accuracy (though I would question what was heard in the recording studio - probably NOT the low frequency artifacts - and thus the midrange is going to be attenuated in compensation). But that doesn't mean you can't achieve a more enjoyable sound with better source material and ultimately better accuracy. And that also doesn't mean that people that listen to "better" (I say that very loosely) source material are hearing the same crappy artifacts that the proponents against subwoofers claim to hear. Did I cover all the angles or should I just make it easier and go hang myself? [6][] Where's that rope Roger? [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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