IB Slammin Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 So Mark, You think that when PWK tested the first Khorn, LaS, and CW, that he ran out to buy grill cloth before testing? [] IMHO, Grill cloth, nice wood, risers etc., is for LOOKS and Market Share Sales. As I understand it, PWK went to extremes to find the most transparent cloth for his speakers. To me, that means that he was looking for something as grill-less in sound as possible. If in appearance, a finished product did not dictate sales,(WAF)then it is my belief that he would not have installed cloth on anything. Again, if sicko-acoustics are not in play with me, I do think that I can hear a difference with and without. Not in SPL, but in clarity. Could be me, could be that I am nuts. To me, the use of cloth to dampen, and/or attenuate a harsh mid range tells me to re-evaluate the horn selection. Not speaking of the horn body, but cloth slightly in front of the horn mouth. Just don't think that PWK had that in mind. But, I could be wrong.[] Regards, tc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 The grille cloth can make a big difference in the sound. When I got my La Scalas, I didn't like the sound of them. Way too "shouty" and harsh in the midrange, plus the blotchy paint on the inside of the rough-cast K-400 didn't look too good. I had the tone controls set at -4dB on treble and +0.5 dB on the bass and still wasn't happy. I picked up some stretchy black grille cloth at a car stereo shop, then applied three thicknesses to the squawker horn and a single thickness to the tweeter. The cloth was stapled to the back side of the front panel after removing the squawker and tweeter, so it looks pretty tidy. The midrange was much improved, but the tweeter sounded muffled, so I removed the cloth from the tweeter. After settling on that, I was able to set the tone controls at "bypass" and get good clear sound. Since the muffling effect is much more noticeable at the higher frequencies, I'm guessing that the notorious 9KHz "bounce" of the K-55V is pretty well eliminated, plus there's about a 3dB reduction in volume. A mechanical way to get squawker high-end rolloff! The next steps were new caps and CT125 tweeters and I'm really happy with the sound. .........The midrange was much improved......... What does that tell us about the mids? tc The mids are too harsh in stock form, to my ears, at least. The triple layer of grille cloth on the midrange horn didn't obscure the sound to any objectionable degree. It's telling that some of the aftermarket crossovers include squawker attenuators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 So Mark, You think that when PWK tested the first Khorn, LaS, and CW, that he ran out to buy grill cloth before testing? [] IMHO, Grill cloth, nice wood, risers etc., is for LOOKS and Market Share Sales. As I understand it, PWK went to extremes to find the most transparent cloth for his speakers. To me, that means that he was looking for something as grill-less in sound as possible. If in appearance, a finished product did not dictate sales,(WAF)then it is my belief that he would not have installed cloth on anything. Again, if sicko-acoustics are not in play with me, I do think that I can hear a difference with and without. Not in SPL, but in clarity. Could be me, could be that I am nuts. To me, the use of cloth to dampen, and/or attenuate a harsh mid range tells me to re-evaluate the horn selection. Not speaking of the horn body, but cloth slightly in front of the horn mouth. Just don't think that PWK had that in mind. But, I could be wrong.[] Regards, tc I can hear a difference in my speakers with the grills off, yes. But I run the ones that have grills.....with them on....and adjust the volume accordingly. [] It's just my opinion but using layers of grill cloth to "muffle" a harsh squawker is pretty funny.....I guess whatever works for you. You can always stuff some socks in it too. [] Once again....the description of the problem is classic......and networks will correct the issue. Talk to DeanG. Then, you can go back to using just a single layer of grill coth.[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 So Mark, You think that when PWK tested the first Khorn, LaS, and CW, that he ran out to buy grill cloth before testing? [] IMHO, Grill cloth, nice wood, risers etc., is for LOOKS and Market Share Sales. As I understand it, PWK went to extremes to find the most transparent cloth for his speakers. To me, that means that he was looking for something as grill-less in sound as possible. If in appearance, a finished product did not dictate sales,(WAF)then it is my belief that he would not have installed cloth on anything. Again, if sicko-acoustics are not in play with me, I do think that I can hear a difference with and without. Not in SPL, but in clarity. Could be me, could be that I am nuts. To me, the use of cloth to dampen, and/or attenuate a harsh mid range tells me to re-evaluate the horn selection. Not speaking of the horn body, but cloth slightly in front of the horn mouth. Just don't think that PWK had that in mind. But, I could be wrong.[] Regards, tc I can hear a difference in my speakers with the grills off, yes. But I run the ones that have grills.....with them on....and adjust the volume accordingly. [] It's just my opinion but using layers of grill cloth to "muffle" a harsh squawker is pretty funny.....I guess whatever works for you. You can always stuff some socks in it too. [] Once again....the description of the problem is classic......and networks will correct the issue. Talk to DeanG. Then, you can go back to using just a single layer of grill coth.[] You may laugh, but it seems to work, and it cost a lot less than a new network. I may check out an upgraded network down the road, but for now the re-capped AAs seem to suit my listening situation (in terms of room size, listening distance and volume, etc.). BTW, with my previous Audio Logic speakers, I left the grilles off because the improved clarity was very noticeable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 I didn't mean anything by the comment. It just sounded funny to me. I'm glad what you are doing is working for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfandbark Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 So Mark, You think that when PWK tested the first Khorn, LaS, and CW, that he ran out to buy grill cloth before testing? [] IMHO, Grill cloth, nice wood, risers etc., is for LOOKS and Market Share Sales. As I understand it, PWK went to extremes to find the most transparent cloth for his speakers. To me, that means that he was looking for something as grill-less in sound as possible. If in appearance, a finished product did not dictate sales,(WAF)then it is my belief that he would not have installed cloth on anything. Again, if sicko-acoustics are not in play with me, I do think that I can hear a difference with and without. Not in SPL, but in clarity. Could be me, could be that I am nuts. To me, the use of cloth to dampen, and/or attenuate a harsh mid range tells me to re-evaluate the horn selection. Not speaking of the horn body, but cloth slightly in front of the horn mouth. Just don't think that PWK had that in mind. But, I could be wrong.[] Regards, tc It's sooo easy to hear the difference in clarity with grills on/off, IB. I agree. You are not nuts. I can't help but think that durability/longevity wasn't a factor when those grills were installed. Big'ol thick weave/cane. Hard to run a Radio Flyer wagon thru that stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 If the charts plotted are to suggest something about grills and Heresys \ Heritage in general, why was the test done with a piezo tweeter? Just guessing, but the nature of the grills fabric and geometry of weave probably makes it a loose week multiple band stop filter - that is the effect is most strong at certain frequencies where the wave length and weave rythym geometry have some kind of "harmonic convergence". Since the piezo tweeter's frequency response is certainly different from the K-77 type tweeter the charts may not mean so much - and if you add the mid horn into the chart the mid's overlap up in the 6KHz range may null out a difference. I don't disagree that grills / no grills might sound different, but seeing the horns vs not seeing them might be part of this...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddyi Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 just grabbed the piezo as was loose and ~same size as T35 type and don't think Heresy's grille cloth could tell a diff between piezo and dynamic tweeter. a very transparent (looking) cloth on a Karlson 12 killed highs, muddled sound plus caught wind from its semi-resisitve slit vent on transients so had to be pulled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted January 13, 2007 Share Posted January 13, 2007 ....................... .......................Hard to run a Radio Flyer wagon thru that stuff............................. ROTF [] tc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 Aftermarket networks may allow adjustment of the squawker output, but do they do anything about the harshness? I found that listening to the open K400/K55V was like watching a TV that had the contrast turned up way too high, to use a visual analogy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 Yes, ALK's extreme slope networks eliminate overlap of frequencies by the drivers. They also place a steep bandpass on the squawker so it can't interact with the tweeter, and it also removes the 9Khz glitch in the squawker. It is MORE than a night and day difference. When you REALLY turn it up, there is no more harshness. Just clarity. Sweeeeet. But....I wouldn't recommend just running out and getting these. You should really try and get a listen to someone's system running these nets first. They're expensive....and they are not for low level listening or small rooms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
km5gn Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 I'd appreciate more details on why the ALKs aren't recommended for low listening or small rooms. I don't do much of the former, but I have what's probably too small of a room. (13 x 22 - horns agains the 13' wall). I've ordered new caps to restore my AA xovers first , but have certainly been thinking of a more modern network for the future. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 "I'd appreciate more details on why the ALKs aren't recommended for low listening or small rooms. I don't do much of the former, but I have what's probably too small of a room. (13 x 22 - horns agains the 13' wall)." Who said this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Actually, the size of the room doesn't matter. But the ES networks will not sound very good until you get some volume pumping. That being said, if you have a small room it could be too loud for what it's worth. In a larger room you can play to the volumes that the networks like to see to sound good, and it most likely will not be too loud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 I'd appreciate more details on why the ALKs aren't recommended for low listening or small rooms. I don't do much of the former, but I have what's probably too small of a room. (13 x 22 - horns agains the 13' wall). I've ordered new caps to restore my AA xovers first , but have certainly been thinking of a more modern network for the future. Steve I would stand to say that the ESN's aren't the network of choice for low volume listening. I know there are people out there that listen to music at "background music" levels. Those ESNs won't open up at low volumes in my opinion. I don't think that is the case with ALK universal network. I love the ESNs. The above is not meant to detract from their greatness. I think they are a waste when just casually listening to music in which the volume remains "lower" such as to carry on a conversation. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfandbark Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 I've been thinking about this a lot. Maybe too much. If the grill was designed to use as a dampener for the squawker and tweeter fine. I know my '76 Cornwalls and '88 Heresies both need it. Keep in mind a lot of this stuff was designed in the '50's. Things were just plain thicker and tougher then. However, much more clarity is gained by pulling the grills. If you have original grill cloth you can't argue it. When they made "Decorator" Cornwalls and Heresies did Klipsch choke the squawker and tweeter for those open faced speakers? I'm not a betting man but, I'd say, I don't think so. So, is tweaking a network better than pulling a grill? Yes. Is pulling a grill better than having an afghan over your speaker? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill W. Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Factory grill cloths have varied over time - -1950's Klipschorns with the K-5 midhorn had a very open- weave plastic grill cloth - The familiar grill cloth of the 1970's has a more dense weave than what was used later (my '78 khorns are clearly different than my '80 khorns) this can only be seen on close inspection. - I believe the combination of rear-mounted tweeter (no "Z" brackets) and restrictive grill cloth has a negative sonic effect. Bill W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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