Are we foolin' ourselves...

[Fish]

I've thought about this question and here is the answer.

Drumroll please......

If you think you are fooling yourself you just may be.If you know you are not then you probably ain't.

[BillH2121]

"If I think my Yugo/Vega/Gremlin/Pinto drives good, then it drives good, and I wouldn't need someone to tell me because I didn't spend XXXX amount of dollars, it can't drive good.........that's all I'm saying............"

Sorry, I have to disagree with this line of proposition. To keep the analogy constant re cars - You may be satisfied with the way your Vega drives based on your knowledge and experience, but that doesn't mean that it drives well. In fact, because of certain design elements constrained by cost, it doesn't drive well compared to other cars with more sophisticated designs. There are certain objective measures that can apply to almost any consideration of performance. I'll give you though that things like audio equipment wihch must be perceived primarily through our senses provide more opportunity for subjective criteria. There are many people that are satisfied with their equipment - there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that their equipment actually sounds better than X's equipment. It simply means they either think it does or are satisfied with it even if it doesn't.

[SilverSport]

Bill,

I hear what you say (no pun... ) but I think what OB is sayin' is that if YOU the end user are satisfied, there is no need to do ANY upgrading no matter WHAT anyone else says...because ultimately YOU are the sole judge of what sounds good to you...problem is, many of us get caught up in others excitement or wish to hear what we may or may not be missing...problem with THAT is that we can't always hear what others hear or THINK they hear...so...

If I hadn't ever heard of the "error" net I would have been happy listening to my Nakamichi TA/2A with Klipsch kg2s I bought in 1989...still wishing for Heresys and never believing I could one day own Klipschorns...and boy what I would have missed (and boy, the money I could have saved too )

It is ALL a learning experience...both good and bad...IMO...

S'funny...been A/B'ing a Norah Jones (The Peter Malick Group Featuring Norah Jones...The Deluxe Collection...thanks Craig!) CD between my Toshiba 3950 and the Cambridge 640c V1...the Cambridge seems to have a bit more meat to it but again...am I fooling myself??? Is the gain higher in the Cambridge???...excellent bass from both (through Quartets and a McIntosh MA6200 SS) ... hmmmmmmmm...

Bill

Bill

[BillH2121]

Bill - yeah, I totally agree that if someone is satisfied with a product, they should enjoy it and not allow others to ruin their enjoyment of that product. If that's all they're saying, then I'm on board with that. But, people who drive Yugos can't tell Porsche drivers that they wasted their money because the Yugo drives as well simply because they think it does. Hey, I'm one of those people with the not so high end equipment - Look at Ivan's stuff over on AK and all of us are humbled.

[meagain]

Silver - I'd get a pal over to a/b them for you so you can do a totally blind test. And I'm still dieing to know how that Outlaw gear sounds on those Khorns.

[Lascaladan]

I agree with Russ. There are people indicating they hear little or no difference between "players". I also agree with Russ that differences do occur. This is a perfect post for me to mention this again. Take a cd you think is "bright" sounding. Take a green(preferred by me) or black permanant magic marker and, carefully, go along the inner and out edge of the cd. There is a science to doing this so you do not get marker all over you, and the non edges of the cd. Give a listen to the cd afterwards. Lets us all report your findings here. It will make a good discussion. A real eye opener( I mean ear opener).

wow - pray tell the physics behind that one! You are obviously affected by placebo.

But here's one to humor myself....would your green marker CD sound better or worse than a hard drive replacing the role of the CD transport?

[pauln]

What is the theory of operation for this tweak? The only science here does look like the part about keeping the marker from getting all over oneself.

[Fish]

What is the theory of operation for this tweak? The only science here does look like the part about keeping the marker from getting all over oneself.

Soooo................that's why they called em' magic markers.Never tried it so I'll only say,never tried it.I do on the other hand have a rubber ring that goes around the perimeter of the disc.I got it several years ago on a used cd I bought,the guys here said it was to dampen(I think).All know is it's the best upgrade ever(only kiddin')I notice no difference.It is possible it's the wrong color,it's a funky yellow and I listen to mostly blues rock.

[pauln]

It might be tolerable but unfortunate to fool yourself, but is it a crime to fool others into fooling themselves?

I've heard of the clocks and pebbles, but this guy takes the cake on tweaks of flake...

http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/product/bpaip.html

[DrWho]

Filed under: should I assume you have not tried it, to listen., Dr.Who

lol - classic. [Y]

Along those same lines, I might suggest you paint your nearest neighbor's albino cat a nice dark blue. It yields a more natural, darker noise floor while smoothing out the mids and making the highs less brittle. I've found that painting the cat black is too dark sounding and sometimes it sounds better to go with dark red - especially if you listen to vinyl.

After that you should paint a fibonaci spiral on the back of your speaker cabinets using ultra-violet paint. The second you turn on a blacklight, you'll notice a huge increase in the expansiveness of the soundstage. Just make sure the spiral is perfectly symmetrical on both cabinets and the lines are exactly 1.61803 cm in width.

[DrWho]

What is the theory of operation for this tweak? The only science here does look like the part about keeping the marker from getting all over oneself.

I think it has to do with the fumes inhaled during the process of marking up hundreds of CDs...

[jheis]

I thougth lascaladan left in a snit after someone questioned his "facts" awhile back.

Now we're back to the green magic marker thing? http://www.snopes.com/music/media/marker.htm

What's next - Magic Pebbles?

Geeze, how can we miss you if you won't go away?

[pauln]

Magic pebbles are nothing compared to this - http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/product/bpaip.html

[Lascaladan]

It is quite unfortunate that some of you need to make fun. I am simply convinced that unless you have tried these tweaks and have listenened for yourself, you have nothing to say to me that makes me feel like I am a looney. Quite the contrary. I will, for all of you birthdays, send you a box of Qtips, as well as a Green marker, just so you can try it. This is the most unprofessional Forum that I belong to. I am a part of this forum because I happen to enjoy, every day, my Lascalas. The only reason!. If none of you want me here, just give the word. I have never made of of anyone if they "do not hear the difference". Believe me, there are many listeners in "my camp". All I am doing is sharing with you my own "listening" experiences. Continue poking fun. Believe me, I am the one who is laughing!

[kev313]

What is the theory of operation for this tweak? The only science here does look like the part about keeping the marker from getting all over oneself.

Now mind you I'm not representing that this is anything other than something I remember hearing or reading, BUT the theory was that the marker reduces laser reflections.

It's all about the laser beams.

[kev313]

From..?

Tweaking CDs

(Updated 2-25-03)

I am constantly amazed at the lack of CD tweaking in the high-end community. No one would dare play a record without the appropriate mat, clamp, cleaning the stylus, cleaning the record, setting the azimuth, overhang, tracking force and vertical tracking angle. Yet these same audiophiles take a new CD, stick it in a player and play it, as if that is all there is to do to get whats on the disc. Every once in a while you read in a magazine that some reviewer greens the edges of the CD or maybe uses the Bidini Clarifier. Thats about it!!!!! Its no wonder that lots of audiophiles think CDs cant produce nowhere near record quality sound. The fact of the matter is that a properly tweaked CD playback system can produce very fantastic sound. CD tweaking is very overlooked because the digital information is thought by many to be very simple to decode. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Everything you do to a CD will change the sound, no matter how low of electrical jitter there is down stream. All the things I am suggesting you do are clearly audible on even low end systems (boom boxes). If you dont hear a difference, maybe you dont want to. The laser is an incredibly powerful light. Any splashing or messing with its beam and you have audible problems. The DVD players that I have played with are far more sensitive. Probably because of the stronger laser beam and the smaller pits. The things I suggest you try are as follows:

1. Lightly sand the outer and inner edge of the CD with sand paper (240 grit works fine) to remove the shine. This roughing of the edges stops a great deal of the laser reflections. This results in a more musical, natural and detailed playback.

2. Green or blacken the edges you just sanded and also green or blacken the top and bottom of the CD around the center hole where it is clear. Make sure you color into any centering grooves or hills. Because the laser is red everyone has assumed that you have to use a green marker to absorb the light. Black absorbs all colors and works very effectively. You want to use a marker that is opaque, doesnt come off on your fingers and also does not peel off. Surprisingly cheap and effective is your basic black Sanford Sharpie marker. With this marker you need to go over each area several times to make it opaque. Doing this will give you even better sound.

3. Make 6 black or green lines on top of the CD a little less than one quarter inch wide. These lines run from the center of the CD to the edge (you are dividing the CD into six pieces of pie). You can still read the label with these lines. I got this idea from the Marigo Crossbow mat with its three wider lines. The spinning black lines really make a difference. You might experiment with other amounts of lines (3-8). Let me know what you think. More lines might work better or worse with the faster spinning DVDs.

4. Apply the latest optical treatment to the playing side and the top of the CD. For years I used Finyl, then for 2 years I used Optrix then Auric Illuminator and now I really like Vivid by Walker Audio. If you want to treat a hybrid SACD then you must first use Mapleshade Mikrosmooth to remove a coating on the SACD that interacts badly with enhancers.

5. Remove static on the CD/SACD/DVD by using the Mapleshade Iconoclast. Works similarly to the Zerostat (generally used on records/LPs) but way more powerful. Puts out both positive and negative Ions to completely de-static the CD. According so some, works better than demagnetizing the CD with either the Bidini Clarifier or a bulk eraser. The Iconoclast can be used on your cables for better sound as well.

We do numbers one through five on every CD/SACD/DAD/DVD-A we listen to.

6. Damp the top of the CD with either of the press on damping goodies from Combak or Compact Dynamics (the Optrix Co.).

7. Try one of the latest mats. I personally never liked the Audioprism one but they have a new improved version. The only mat that I have tried and liked is the Marigo Crossbow mat. However, it made CDs and DVDs sound worse on the EVS modified Pioneer and Sony DVD players. Experiment as always.

8. Try the Peter Belt foils. We have not yet heard this ourselves but have heard about the Belt Phenomenon for years. Check out what Greg Weaver of Soundstage has to say about the Belt foils (April 99 and July 99 columns).

9. Try freezing your CDs. See Soundstages Greg Weavers info in his Dec 99 column.

10. Some people have said that copying a CD onto a "black" CDR sounds better.

11. Make copies on the best Yamaha ripper. Suppose to give burn larger pits that make them less sensitive to jitter. With first burning to hard disc and then burning the CDR with the Yamaha ripper people have said it gives improved sound.

So what do you get when you do most of the above inexpensive tweaks? Way more musical, natural and detailed sound, thats all!!!

I like the sandpaper. That sounds like a good idea.

[jcmusic]

kev313 I know alittle something about the black CD's, a friend told me about them 8 months ago. I read the article he sent me got the black CD's and WOW!!! He was right. Anytime I record CD's I use the black CD's with a few other tricks I learned from the article, the recordings are always better than store bought CD's.

Jay

[Fish]

It is quite unfortunate that some of you need to make fun. I am simply convinced that unless you have tried these tweaks and have listenened for yourself, you have nothing to say to me that makes me feel like I am a looney. Quite the contrary. I will, for all of you birthdays, send you a box of Qtips, as well as a Green marker, just so you can try it. This is the most unprofessional Forum that I belong to. I am a part of this forum because I happen to enjoy, every day, my Lascalas. The only reason!. If none of you want me here, just give the word. I have never made of of anyone if they "do not hear the difference". Believe me, there are many listeners in "my camp". All I am doing is sharing with you my own "listening" experiences. Continue poking fun. Believe me, I am the one who is laughing!

Ldan,just for the record,I'm not really passing judgement either way.You do have to realize of course that these subjects lend themselves to lots "witty" comments.If you think it's an improvement and you share your thoughts I see nothing wrong with that.I believe all members have something to contribute,whether I agree or adopt it still may be of value to others.

[jacksonbart]

From..?

Tweaking CDs

(Updated 2-25-03)

I am constantly amazed at the lack of CD tweaking in the high-end community. No one would dare play a record without the appropriate mat, clamp, cleaning the stylus, cleaning the record, setting the azimuth, overhang, tracking force and vertical tracking angle. Yet these same audiophiles take a new CD, stick it in a player and play it, as if that is all there is to do to get whats on the disc. Every once in a while you read in a magazine that some reviewer greens the edges of the CD or maybe uses the Bidini Clarifier. Thats about it!!!!! Its no wonder that lots of audiophiles think CDs cant produce nowhere near record quality sound. The fact of the matter is that a properly tweaked CD playback system can produce very fantastic sound. CD tweaking is very overlooked because the digital information is thought by many to be very simple to decode. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Everything you do to a CD will change the sound, no matter how low of electrical jitter there is down stream. All the things I am suggesting you do are clearly audible on even low end systems (boom boxes). If you dont hear a difference, maybe you dont want to. The laser is an incredibly powerful light. Any splashing or messing with its beam and you have audible problems. The DVD players that I have played with are far more sensitive. Probably because of the stronger laser beam and the smaller pits. The things I suggest you try are as follows:

1. Lightly sand the outer and inner edge of the CD with sand paper (240 grit works fine) to remove the shine. This roughing of the edges stops a great deal of the laser reflections. This results in a more musical, natural and detailed playback.

2. Green or blacken the edges you just sanded and also green or blacken the top and bottom of the CD around the center hole where it is clear. Make sure you color into any centering grooves or hills. Because the laser is red everyone has assumed that you have to use a green marker to absorb the light. Black absorbs all colors and works very effectively. You want to use a marker that is opaque, doesnt come off on your fingers and also does not peel off. Surprisingly cheap and effective is your basic black Sanford Sharpie marker. With this marker you need to go over each area several times to make it opaque. Doing this will give you even better sound.

3. Make 6 black or green lines on top of the CD a little less than one quarter inch wide. These lines run from the center of the CD to the edge (you are dividing the CD into six pieces of pie). You can still read the label with these lines. I got this idea from the Marigo Crossbow mat with its three wider lines. The spinning black lines really make a difference. You might experiment with other amounts of lines (3-8). Let me know what you think. More lines might work better or worse with the faster spinning DVDs.

4. Apply the latest optical treatment to the playing side and the top of the CD. For years I used Finyl, then for 2 years I used Optrix then Auric Illuminator and now I really like Vivid by Walker Audio. If you want to treat a hybrid SACD then you must first use Mapleshade Mikrosmooth to remove a coating on the SACD that interacts badly with enhancers.

5. Remove static on the CD/SACD/DVD by using the Mapleshade Iconoclast. Works similarly to the Zerostat (generally used on records/LPs) but way more powerful. Puts out both positive and negative Ions to completely de-static the CD. According so some, works better than demagnetizing the CD with either the Bidini Clarifier or a bulk eraser. The Iconoclast can be used on your cables for better sound as well.

We do numbers one through five on every CD/SACD/DAD/DVD-A we listen to.

6. Damp the top of the CD with either of the press on damping goodies from Combak or Compact Dynamics (the Optrix Co.).

7. Try one of the latest mats. I personally never liked the Audioprism one but they have a new improved version. The only mat that I have tried and liked is the Marigo Crossbow mat. However, it made CDs and DVDs sound worse on the EVS modified Pioneer and Sony DVD players. Experiment as always.

8. Try the Peter Belt foils. We have not yet heard this ourselves but have heard about the Belt Phenomenon for years. Check out what Greg Weaver of Soundstage has to say about the Belt foils (April 99 and July 99 columns).

9. Try freezing your CDs. See Soundstages Greg Weavers info in his Dec 99 column.

10. Some people have said that copying a CD onto a "black" CDR sounds better.

11. Make copies on the best Yamaha ripper. Suppose to give burn larger pits that make them less sensitive to jitter. With first burning to hard disc and then burning the CDR with the Yamaha ripper people have said it gives improved sound.

So what do you get when you do most of the above inexpensive tweaks? Way more musical, natural and detailed sound, thats all!!!

I like the sandpaper. That sounds like a good idea.

The guy who wrote that is a tweek (if that was not a joke). How about buying a nice system (which you have demoed before hand), placing it in a nice room in the house, adding some acoustic treatment as needed and then enjoying the music on a regular basis. So many people seem to be more into thier equipment then thier music. I could understand people spending time tweaking thier room more so than painting CDs, buying a silk LP matte or buying platnum wire holders.

[Fish]

If I gotta do all that stuff to cd's I'm goin' back to lp's.At least I didn't have to freeze my albums,I mean come on,I got food in there.But.......on 2nd thought,a nice upright freezer/cd storage would make a nice addition to my set up,cool.