Are we foolin' ourselves...

[ssh]

You get what you play for.

SSH

[DrWho]

So how high in frequency does a playback system need to go?

This is an excellent question and I don't think the answer has been definitively answered, so best to error on the high side, right?

So if we sample at 192kHz and can achieve 96kHz then that's even better, right? [][]

You're complaining that a 10kHz square wave and sine wave on a CD is exactly the same thing...but they're supposed to be the same thing!

Only for the CD based on it's design spec, not necessarily for other sources that are analog.

It has nothing to do with the "CD design spec" - this is true for both analog and digital frequencies. I would be more than happy to bust out the math if you're interested. []

Is 20kHz not high enough for playback? Heck, is 50kHz high enough? Why not set the limit to 1MHz?

Guessing from people's experience that 20KHz (CDs) is potentially too low for ultimate audio fidelity replayback, 50KHz (records) may be closer or fine enough?

To pass back an argument you've thrown at me regarding low frequency reproduction....show me mics that are good above 20kHz [] There's usually a bunch of equipment rolling off the top end - heck, the engineers probably throw in some low pass stuff as well. Btw, I say that knowing full well about a few mics that have some sort of a response out to 30kHz or so [] But a lot of popular mics don't...

What you're elluding to may be true from a certain perspective, but you're implying that it has an audible effect that doesn't exist.

The "Life Above 20KHz" research indicates the classic "can't hear above 20KHz" is misleading, possibly quite wrong, and that higher is important to some subtle aspects that influence our music perception. There are other research papers that indicate the same thing - that sound up to 30KHz which could not be "heard" never the less changed the way people heard music (they could tell the difference). If this had been known at the time CDs were designed I think the sampling frequency might have been spec'ed up another octave or two. Maybe when and if this happens the CD will become an absolute contender with vinly (and high speed wide tape).

Btw, just because tape can make noise at higher frequencies doesn't mean that it's accurately stored information. I could easily throw some white noise onto the output of a CD player and have it measure up to 1MHz if I wanted [6] In other words, any measurements I've seen showing that the frequency response of tape are insufficient. Not saying I disagree with them - but the measurements really aren't showing anything.

If a person can't hear above 20kHz, then a 10kHz square wave will sound identical to a 10kHz sine wave. If you claim that you can hear a difference, then you need to pick a higher sampling rate until you can achieve the high frequency limit of your hearing. Of course you'll actually have to hear it for yourself to determine if there's a difference []

Exactly! And if ultra 20K sounds do influence our perception of music as the research implies, differentiating sounds in the high range would seem to become important. So many folks are trying to resolve their experience with noticing differences between records and CDs, and possible differences among different CD players... is it so strange to wonder if the presence or absense of sounds we "can't hear" might influence the one's we do hear?

I'm not sure I would blaim the high frequency response as being the culprit. I would wager that it has more to do with the impact of the lowpass filter that needs to be employed (which for redbook audio has an extremely steep slope). This is going to introduce group delay and phase anamolies in the top octave - the audible effects of which seem to be slightly debated. Some of the 96kHz 24-Bit DACs are still low-passing just above 20kHz, but are implementing shallower slopes so that there is less of an impact on the audible passband - which results in an audible improvement (yet the frequency response is about the same).

[ben.]

I'm glad some folks clicked on that link and thanks for reacting. For quite some time, I've firmly believed that humans - yes, even drummers - can perceive energy past 20kHz. Even in reproduction system that roll off significantly before that, ultrasonic content still matters in my experience. As I've said, it's not mandatory in the pursuit of enjoyable music but it is there and I like it, anyway.

I have a notion that part of it is how the sound behaves in the air. It's impossible that air pressure or lack thereof above 20kHz wouldn't affect the pressure and behavior of sound below 20kHz after it leaves the speaker.

[ben.]

Mike -

What's "good past 20kHz" mean? Even if rolling off above that, there's likely quite a bit of useful information above that. I'm contending that our brains don't need a lot of energy above 20k, but that it is perceptible and significant if it is there.

Of course, Earthworks had a handful of mics that are essentially flat to 30, 40, and even 50kHz. I have heard demos vs. familiar microphones and the results are worthy of attention. Of course, the impulse and phase response of the mics are exceptional and surely contribute to the sonics. David Blackmer (the db in dbx) was the principal developer of the microphones. Check out their site - they offer a free demo CD (which rolls off sharply around 20kHz, unfortunately). They're relatively affordable.

[DrWho]

It means pretty much everything that defines good....flat frequency response, low distortion, wide polars, etc....

I totally agree on the high frequency reproduction bit, but as an engineer you gotta decide where the cap needs to be. As of right now, I don't think there is any popular medium available capable of 'accurately' storing high frequency information to be filtered and tested for audible effects. I do know that very high frequency DACs exist (like the one that guy used in his tests) so I would look in that direction if I were ever to do some experimentation. But even if the research yields positive reults, it's gonna take quite an influence to shift the "20-20 hearing" perspective that nearly everyone seems to have.

[Lascaladan]

I agree with Russ. There are people indicating they hear little or no difference between "players". I also agree with Russ that differences do occur. This is a perfect post for me to mention this again. Take a cd you think is "bright" sounding. Take a green(preferred by me) or black permanant magic marker and, carefully, go along the inner and out edge of the cd. There is a science to doing this so you do not get marker all over you, and the non edges of the cd. Give a listen to the cd afterwards. Lets us all report your findings here. It will make a good discussion. A real eye opener( I mean ear opener).

[oldbuckster]

Why do we spend so much time worrying what a Cd player sounds like, how speakers sound, noises from our power units, when do you find time to listen to the MUSIC ????????????????? If the owner of the equipment is happy with his or her choice, isn't that good enough ?????

Are we foolin' ourselves?............................Could be..............................

[joemcten]

Buckster, I am right there with you. I do enjoy the equipment, but I got into this damn hobby many years ago out of my love for the music...I have always thought that your gear is secondary to the music..I would rather spend most of my time listening..If you enjoy your system that is all that should matter....

[Lascaladan]

OB, as you should know by now, there are several reasons we(the forum members)do the "upgrade" thing we do. For myself, it is to capture every little bit of information that is on my silver(cds,dvds)and black(vinyl)discs. Radio listening as well. I understand all the extremes that are being taken to get us to the next level. The way that I look at my recorded music is in itself a "performance". Some of course are "produced" better than others, but to get the best out of it is rewarding when listening. Case in point. Sinatra "Duets" on cd. It is the amazing technology of the recording process itself that brought Ole Blue Eyes together with all of these other greats, as a tribute to him. To hear Bono and Sinatra together(any of them, actually) is a great listening experience. I am a huge Sinatra fan, which helps in the enjoyment. I enjoy the older Sinatra recordings going back to the "Capitol" days even more. A system of fine quality can capture the experience of being there as opposed to a "boom box"(I am not saying it is as good as being there).. I listen to a boom box as well, during different moments in my life. But these moments are not the same as when I sit and listen. Another favorite recording of mine is Jethro Tull's Aqualung. It is, in my opinion, only a fair recording. But on my system, to me, it is quite captivating. It is dynamically constricted, but I get some good out of it. Speakers, amps, sources, wires and cables, equipment isolation, the room etc., all play a part in the "retrieva of information". Although Hendrix and Jim Morrison are no longer, I have the "recordings" to allow me to "get together" with them, in the comfort of my own home. Some of the members have dissected their Klipsch to become something else. If, to them, it brings them closer to the listening nirvana, why not. Rolling tubes, more power, biamping, you name it. It is to take us to the next level. There always is a next level. I have heard many extreme systems that sound just ok to me(bad in fact). I have heard some simpler systems which really "grabbed" my attention to sit and listen more. Again I am running my mouth, I am sorry. I am trying to explain the mentality of most of the forum members, unless I am alone. Please speak up out there.

[DrWho]

I agree with Russ. There are people indicating they hear little or no difference between "players". I also agree with Russ that differences do occur. This is a perfect post for me to mention this again. Take a cd you think is "bright" sounding. Take a green(preferred by me) or black permanant magic marker and, carefully, go along the inner and out edge of the cd. There is a science to doing this so you do not get marker all over you, and the non edges of the cd. Give a listen to the cd afterwards. Lets us all report your findings here. It will make a good discussion. A real eye opener( I mean ear opener).

wow - pray tell the physics behind that one! You are obviously affected by placebo.

But here's one to humor myself....would your green marker CD sound better or worse than a hard drive replacing the role of the CD transport?

[anarchist]

Take a green(preferred by me) or black permanant magic marker and, carefully, go along the inner and out edge of the cd.

wow - pray tell the physics behind that one!

Gee, DrWho, its not difficult to figure out. It "colors" the sound. Bada Bing!

[oldbuckster]

It just seems to me that some are more into tweeking the equipment, than listening to the music, but, my point was more along the lines of you can't tell another person what they hear.................period. If I think my $10.00 CD player sounds good, then it sounds good, and I wouldn't need someone to tell me because I didn't spend XXXX amount of dollars, it can't sound good.........that's all I'm saying............

[dtel]

I agree with Russ. There are people indicating they hear little or no difference between "players". I also agree with Russ that differences do occur. This is a perfect post for me to mention this again. Take a cd you think is "bright" sounding. Take a green(preferred by me) or black permanant magic marker and, carefully, go along the inner and out edge of the cd. There is a science to doing this so you do not get marker all over you, and the non edges of the cd. Give a listen to the cd afterwards. Lets us all report your findings here. It will make a good discussion. A real eye opener( I mean ear opener).

I always preferred red for rock, blue for blues, and kind of a off white for Jazz. For rap I just prefer to break them in to quarters, it makes them sound better grinding up in the CD player. [Y]

[pauln]

OB,

This is a terrible position to take - how do you identify quality if you insist it is all about what you think... it leads to absurdities, for example:

If I think my Yugo/Vega/Gremlin/Pinto drives good, then it drives good, and I wouldn't need someone to tell me because I didn't spend XXXX amount of dollars, it can't drive good.........that's all I'm saying............

[kev313]

It just seems to me that some are more into tweeking the equipment, than listening to the music, but, my point was more along the lines of you can't tell another person what they hear.................period. If I think my $10.00 CD player sounds good, then it sounds good, and I wouldn't need someone to tell me because I didn't spend XXXX amount of dollars, it can't sound good.........that's all I'm saying............

Is your 10dollar cd player an original Playstation? (Sorry. Couldn't resist).

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/867738.aspx

[SilverSport]

OB,

Not so much tweaking but things break or one just wants to upgrade due to rave reviews from those we have come to trust...the GF needed a CD player that plays the home made variety of CDs as her Yammie won't read them...in this specific case, I had read a lot about the Toshiba 3990...being happy with my Toshiba 3950, I thought...give it a try...it sounds nice and the best part is it was only $39 with tax...as for my MUCH more expensive Cambridge...two face plate buttons have gone south...good thing it still works with the remote...I also like to hear what the brainiacs (with respect) have to say...some say a cheap DVD player CAN'T sound good and still others swear there is no difference...I try to let my ears decide with whom I side...

Bill

[mike stehr]

Not so much tweaking but things break or one just wants to upgrade due to rave reviews from those we have come to trust...the GF needed a CD player that plays the home made variety of CDs as her Yammie won't read them...in this specific case, I had read a lot about the Toshiba 3990...being happy with my Toshiba 3950, I thought...give it a try...it sounds nice and the best part is it was only $39 with tax...as for my MUCH more expensive Cambridge...two face plate buttons have gone south...good thing it still works with the remote...I also like to hear what the brainiacs (with respect) have to say...some say a cheap DVD player CAN'T sound good and still others swear there is no difference...I try to let my ears decide with whom I side...

Bill

I liked the sound of my Toshiba 3950 for audio CD's. I slammed many a CD through that unit in a two year period, and watch many DVD's as well.

Does your Cambridge have a warranty? Tell them the buttons don't function and send it back.

I remember the sound of the of the Toshiba being better than a average vintage unit from the early '90's. This old Pioneer 6 disc changer sounds good, but it is more bright and hot on top. Which would make the Toshiba more comfortable to listen to for extended periods. I listened to the Pioneer for a few days, and got tired of that hot top-end. I changed back to the Rega Planet, and the sound was less bright and smoother. The bass on both units is pretty much the same.

The 3950 was pretty close in sound of the Rega Planet, but the Rega's bass is a little more defined and the Toshiba didn't seem as extended....subtle things.....

I'd say in the world of older cheap CD players and DVD players they do have sound differences from one another. The differences in being how much worse one sounds from the other. Some sound ok, nothin' special, some sound worse than others, and others sound even more worse.

Hopefully if everything goes right tomorrow night, I may aquire a ol' vintage '84,'85 Sony single tray CD player that works. If I can't get the tray to open on the unit without prying it, I get swap him for a early '90's Sony unit with remote. Call me a loon, but I want to hear the ol' Sony with the brick wall filter.....

I may toy with the Analog output stage of the Pioneer sometime......

[oldbuckster]

OB,

This is a terrible position to take - how do you identify quality if you insist it is all about what you think... it leads to absurdities, for example:

If I think my Yugo/Vega/Gremlin/Pinto drives good, then it drives good, and I wouldn't need someone to tell me because I didn't spend XXXX amount of dollars, it can't drive good.........that's all I'm saying............

And isn't your statement about the Yugo true, if it works for the owner, it's good for them, and seeing as it was "them" that bought the Yugo, isn't in the end, that's all that matters..............the owner is happy !!!!!!!!!!!! It's like "speaker wire", if Joe x buys speaker wire, and says, his stereo sounds better, who am I to tell him it doesn't.??...............he thinks it does...........that's all that matters.....but NO, there is always someone to tell him it can't sound better...........................Like I stated, I bought the mid range price CD player, has never skipped or failed to play, I like it, sounds good to my ears, and I didn't spend $1000. for it....................No it's not an old Playstation Unit..........

[maxg]

Funny you should mention the Playstation. At the High End show one of the presenters had a system using that as the source. It sounded diabolically bad. I asked if it was some kind of protest against high end audio - they didnt take that question very well.....

[SilverSport]

Mike Stehr,

Thanks for that BUT...I bought it on Audiogon from the "better class of people" there...arrived with one button not working, I asked the seller if he could help me out as I emailed Cambridge in Great Briton about having it fixed if I had the original info...never heard from the seller again...makes me feel he knew about this despite his denial...U.S. Post Office rode me around like a Donkey only to not help me further...again, seller must help out and he fell off the face of the Earth...Cambridge could offer no clues as to the problem other than bring it to an authorized repair shop (what did you expect them to say Bill??? )...but the cost to "open 'er up" and then repair (if it is an easy fix) might not really be worth it as I can still make it work through the remote...I have had better luck on eBay than a-gon...of course, perfect luck buying from you all here on the Forum...

Bill