picky Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Many of you may know that it has been very cold around the Michigan area for the last week: Teens, single digits and below zero (F) has been the recent norm. A disaster was averted about two hours ago. What we thought to be water on the basement floor from an ice dam that had formed on our roof, instead, turned out to be a frozen pipe that had burst. We removed the ice dam yesterday in the early evening. We expected the water to stop flowing after that. The water was still flowing this morning, but it was in such a widely-spread area where there are no pipes that I thought is was still melting ice. Not satisfied with that diagnosis, I continued to check things for evidence that might lead me to a source. Then, while standing near our left-front channel (RF-7) I thought I heard the sound of water running like white noise. I popped the outdoor sprinkler system shut-off valve access panel on the wall above the RF-7. It was near the ceiling. Sure enough, there it was: water was spraying from a crack in the bottom of the valve housing and down the cinderblock wall behind the insulation onto the basement floor behind the wall. The water then seeped under the wall any place it could which is why it was spread out over such a broad area. The ony way to shut the supply to that valve down is the close the main gate valve, which I did. The sprinkle valve is ball valve that is part of a 1" copper branch line off the house main line. We filled out bathtub before shutting it down so a least we'll have water to flush the commode with until the plumber comes out tomorrow. Our regular plumber is up North this weekend and called us back to tell us he's sorry he can't help us. I have another guy I called and he'll take care of us. Things could have been a lot worse. The water that did escape went across the tile floor and right into the floor drain without hurting any furniture or speakers. We also mopped and had thrown towels and rags down. Everything is drying up now. I will have to open up the wall floor-to-ceiling to remove the wet insulation and allow the area to dry thoroughly for a few days. Thankfully, I installed pressured-treating sole plates on all of the walls so the wood will not need replacing after it dries. I can replace drywall and insulation all day long so I consider this an inconvenience more than a disaster. But it could have been much worse if we weren;t home when it happened or if I hadn't kept searching for the real cause. As it turns out: the ice dam did not leak into the house at all, and that's a good thing! I could probably fix the pipe myself, but I want it done right the first time! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 OH NO...I'll keep a good thought for full recovery...I was awakened the other night with water dripping on me from an overhead light fixture...scared the stuff out of me...positive karma sent your way...take care, Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Uh-oh, sounds like you caught it in time, good thing there was no damage to the equipment... luckily that is what your homeowner's insurance is for, but still a pain to replace all the equipment and all the effort that you have poured into your space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzp Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Glenn, In spite of how bad it could have been I'm happy you figured it out soon and got the H2O shut off. Good call filling the bathtub up to flush the comode. Stay warm and good luck Amigo!!! -p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Pretty scary stuff there Glenn. I had a sump pump line freeze outside the house again this year, until I get this right I'm not going to be finishing the basement at all for my proposed HT. You got lucky, but acted quickly and appropriately as well. WHEW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted February 11, 2007 Author Share Posted February 11, 2007 And of course, I have my reputation to protect: So, here are the inevitable pictures.... I used a utility knife to score the drywall down the stud line first and then carefully broke out the drywall in large pieces using a claw hammer. Then I used the utility knif to cut through the thick, rubberized membrane I had installed beneath the drywall. The wet insulation was then easy to remove prior to my taking these pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted February 11, 2007 Author Share Posted February 11, 2007 Holes that burst in the sprinkler shut-off valve and 1" supply line... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted February 11, 2007 Author Share Posted February 11, 2007 The thick, black stuff is the special GAF roofing material I used as my acoustic membrane through-out the entire theater. Many told me it would not work, yet I believe it has contributed significanlty to the improved sound quality of the room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted February 11, 2007 Author Share Posted February 11, 2007 Our lonely left front channel RF7 doing a "time-out" in a neutral corner for the time being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shmoe Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 I wish I would have taken a picture of the same disaster I had. It was also in my home theater, and it was also the shut off valve for the outdoor spicket. It was a real bummer having to tear down the drywall & re-do eveyrthing.... So I can really relate. I just made sure that I wrapped the new valve in insulation & used a frost free valve on the outside. I'm glad nothing major was damged for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted February 11, 2007 Author Share Posted February 11, 2007 My contractor friend was here and we sawed the valve completely off the line and placed a 1" copper plug on the end of the supply link. He sweated it on for me as I have very little experience with sweat solder plumbing and I want it to hold. He said you need a larger torch to heat up 1" stuff so he brought a mapp gas torch. We used doubled-up aluminum siding to protect the joists and insulation from the heat and flames as it was in rather tight quarters. Water's back on and no leaks! I'll ask my reular plumber to come out in the spring and install a new valve and everything at that time so I'll be able to use my sprinklers. What a relief to have that done. Each fall we shut the 3 inside valves off to the outdoor spigots. Then we leave the outdoor valves open 1/2 way so the water can drain out. Any ice that forms usually expands outward and out of the faucet. This is the first time we've had one freeze. I blow the water out of our prinkler system every fall. Looks like I need to install some heat tape for use on the coldest days. Good ole Michigan winters.... -Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedball Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 How frustrating to cut up a nice finished room...... Since the pipes are now between the insulation and the cold block wall, getting some heat to that area is necessary. You probably already know pipes must be kept warm wherever they are located. Goodluck with everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theplummer Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Picky, If I may interject here with an educated opinion of your current delimma. I've noticed several things to point out, although most are obvious. First of all, are you sure your main is a one inch line, and not a 3/4" It may just be the photographs, but, it appears to be a 3/4 line. This is measured from the inside of the pipe, the actual measurement outside diamater will be 7/8". This is not really that important, except I've noticed that your meter is a 1/2" meter, or what the meter company will tell you 5/8". This size meter usually will not provide enough volume for a 2 full bathroom home, much less a sprinkler system also. You should have two separate meters, one for the house usage (you pay for your sewer based on this water usage), the other meter is for the lawn (No sewer charges here). You should also have at a minimum 3/4" meter for both. These meters will run you about $165 each. Also, I don't see any backflow preventer's installed on the Sprinkler line, VERY Big No, No. (unless your not showing those in your photos.) You could ultimately contaminate your drinking water with pesticides or other poisions if there should ever be a backflow situation on your public water supply. Also, when you re-plumb the problem pipe, may I suggest that you re-postion the line closer to the drywall, so you can place insulation between the cinderblock wall and the pipe, DO NOT install ANY insullation between the warm drywall and the water pipe. The idea is to allow the heat from the home to penetrate the drywall and warm the pipes, not to insullate the pipe from the heat, without heat, all water will freeze. (Try an experiment, fill a milk jug with water, put it into a empty beverage cooler and place it outside on your back porch. Now, hypothasize wether or not the water in the cooler will freeze.) May I also suggest installing a new ball valve with a bleeder instead of the Watts that you have. The one you want will have a green handle. Make note of the flow direction it is important on that style valve, this will allow you to completely drain the line for winterizing in the future. Also, if your local codes will allow, I'd recommend getting rid of that crappy gate valve before the meter, this will ultimately fail, become nearly impossible to turn, and the packing will deteriorate over time. Replace it with a ball valve also, it will last forever. Some communities will not allow the use of a ball valve in this location as it could cause a "Hammer" to occur if the valve is closed too rapidly. Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 That all sounds like good reasonable advice, especially the bit about insulation in wall cavities with pipes and the backflow problem. The ball valve replacement sounds like a good swap since you're in there already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 This could be the subject of a home theater enthusiast's worst nightmares. My current dwelling isn't so ideal for basement install - but this story has me wondering if it would EVER be a good idea. I can see it now......I get my "dream theater" all set up, then catch myself waking up in the middle of the night, interrupting mental images of flowing water in the basement........[8o|] I can further envision a late night at a Klipsch Pilgimage, campout, or similar gathering, where various forum members are telling "sound system horror stories" in the dark......what might be a scene in a Gary Larson "Far Side" cartoon......slits in waterpipes in the basement......scary stuff......... But getting back to reality, I must say that I'm glad you caught this before it got worse/did more damage. Or as they say in HockeyTown - NICE SAVE!!!! I've known a few who found out wayyyy too late - looks like you are on your way to restoring this to former condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted February 12, 2007 Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 Some very good advise here (on several posts). Thanks.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> The problem was caused due to a flow of cold air from the home's bond joist region that went undetected when the area was enclosed during the summer months 3 years ago. Additional insulation and foaming will resolve the cold air flow issue. The leak was repaired through the use of a copper plug that was labeled "1 inch" by the hardware store. Therefore, whatever the resultant ID or OD is I did not take the time to measure. It fits and does not leak and right now, that's all that really matters to me. I'm still a bit <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />PO'd that this happened so please bear with me. When the valve is replaced in the spring by my plumber, I will request the green-handled valve. Thanks. Just so you know we do have an anti-siphon valve on the line: it's outdoors and it's to code. As for the installation of the main gate valve: it's required locally. That's a lead main coming up through the floor. We're not happy about that, but every house in the area has one. We filter our drinking water. The two-meter setup to separate sprinklers from the rest of the house is a great idea and I had it 10 years ago. It just became acceptable in this area a year or two ago. I do not foresee me tearing my room up any time soon to accommodate the setup even though it would eventually save me a lot of money. As you might imagine, Ive got other priorities right now. In addition to eliminating the cold air movement mentioned above, I am installing a cold-air return register cover in place of the solid access panel door I had over the valve before. This will allow warm room air to ventilate the valve. Insulation will be installed behind the valve and piping to separate it from the cinderblock. I will also install heat tape that will only be energized during the coldest weather. Finally, rather than replace the drywall, I am installing ¼ thick MDF (Medium-Density Fiberboard) to cover the 16 wide cavity from floor to ceiling. This I will paint flat black to match the rest of the wall. Under normal room lighting conditions, no on will be able to discern there is an access panel there rather than drywall. Should this happen again, I shall have immediate access to the entire cavity after removing about a dozen drywall screws. This should not affect the rooms acoustics in my estimation. Thanks again everyone for your point-of-view and your kind suggestions. Hopefully, I will calm down after things are back to "normal" around here? -Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theplummer Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Picky, Let me calm you down by telling you a story. You can say, "Whew at least I didn't have it that bad". A few years ago, I was working as a full time police officer in my home town, and working on the side as a plumber. I got a call one day for water running out of a house, garage door half way up, and the homeowner's are away on vacation. Upon my arrival, I observed just that. the garage door was half way up and there was a trickle of water running down the driveway. I entered the home by the garage to discover a vintage muscle car convertible sitting in the garage (with the top down). the garage reminded me of a wet cave. water was dripping from every drywall tape joint. the tape was falling off the ceiling, water was as deep as the door thresholds of the convertible and everything in the garage was wet. This house was a two story, with a basement garage, but the basement garage entered out the front instead of the back. My first though is to shut off the entire house electric, as an electrical fire, or my butt getting shocked was pretty high on my priority list. I entered the utility room under the staircase and shut off the electric. I think it had already shorted, but just wanted to be safe. While there, I located the water meter, I expected to see the dial spinning out of control but it was dead still, even the little red triangel "Tattle tale" was still. This thing will move even if you have a dripping faucet. This was very odd, where's the water coming from, I thought. I proceded to the main floor to find that the entire living room was soaked. the carpet squished beneath my feet, the drywall was falling down, and all the electronics in the house were obviously destroyed. I knew that the source of the leak was coming from the second floor. As I walked up the stairs, Nothing, no soggy floor, absolutely nothing out of place, No hissing water leak, no nothing. I stood dead still for at least 15minutes and nothing. I was about to leave the second floor when I heard the second floor toilet ball cock (float valve) activate. I inspected the toilet. Nothing, it looked fine. I was able to finally find a small wet spot on the back of the toilet tank. I used my flashlight and found that the toilet tank porcelain had cracked and water had been running out of the back of the toilet for days. every time the tank level dropped the ball cock would just fill it back up. I was able to find a family member who secured the property until the homeowner could return. I spoke to the homeowner about a year or two later. He said that he had $80,000 damage and no flood insurance. Not counting the damage to the car. Hope this makes you feel a little better. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 theplummer: Yup! That did it alright! I feel a lot better. Thanks! Actually, I've pretty much gotten over this whole thing. I look at it now as a learning experience. I am now actively designing home theaters for other folks and this helps me consider what to do in their spaces to prevent them from having the same experience. While I was desiging my own theater, I tried to think-out every aspect thoroughly. Obviously, pipe insulation was one area that needs improvement. I certainly will not let this happen again if I can help it! Thanks, man. What a bummer! -Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 The cold air return grille and band joist insulation are great ideas. When insulating homes, the band joist area is frequently left out and if it is above grade, represents a significant area of heat loss. I recently had phase one of my home insulation completed and in both crawl space areas, the contractor used a spray urethane foam to coat the entire band joist and block area (about 3' in height) to a depth of 2-3 " in the foam- creating a air tight and moisture and bug resistant coating. I'm worried about the grade my home is on. With the sump pipe freezing about 12 feet outside the home again this winter, I'm expecting a flood of water into the window wells again when the snow and frost thaw soon. I have a backup sump that is city water driven, but when the water exits the house and reenters again almost immediately, there is no resolution. I'm begining to think after three years that my basement will never be secure enough for a HT. I don't want to risk my speakers or sanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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