How will my system benefit from a tube amp?

[mas]

Here, you want a VERY simple example of how a Heyser spiral might be useful?

Given

a system where you knew the reactances of various amplifiers in a

bi-amped SR system, you have LF bins, and MF/HF packs. You have a

choice of amps, and one model is predominantly capacitive at <1KHZ

and inductive in the >1KHz passband, the other is primarily

inductive <1 KHz and capacitive in the >1KHz passband.

It

would make more sense to use the model that is inductive at <1 KHz

to

drive the LF bins, as using an amplifier that was capacitive at less

than 1 KHz to drive low frequencies would not be an optimal match.

==============

That's it? That's your great scientific work? No data, no specifics, no outcomes, no process, no measurements, no math, no speculative design criteria? Just a couple of nifty generalizations?

And for this we had to be scolded about "rejecting science?"

Generate data on a general postulate. ROFLMAO.

You are indeed an idiot TubeBoy.

Go sell your noisy 6DJ8 tubes. You want all of the theory, use some of he money you make peddling your crap here to buy the text. You want a secretary to sit on your lap, buy one.

Your ignorance is YOUR problem and everyone else's source of noise, Mr Subjectivity.

If you want to debate the validity of what Heyser and others have postulated and what we can measure, you go buy the equipment and figure it out. You want someone to present to you what you nothing but belittle? I couldn't care less what ignorance you are dependent upon selling here.

But I don't have to do that which you are too lazy to do. I don't have to waste my time trying to teach you that which you spend your time belittling as you promote your tubes. And I certainly have no desire no obligation to teach you when you are too stupid and lazy to have familiarized yourself with the concepts that have been presented over the last 25 years. I didn't see you at the many seminars and conferences. I haven't seen you do much of anything except push the vested interest you have in selling tube equipment and expose your head up your posterior audiophile snobbery . And yet you are the one who hasn't a clue as to why anyone would use an active crossover or signal delay. And if you have yet to familiarize yourself with the fundamental issues presented by analysis of the signal in the time domain, and the associated topological relationships and yet want to challenge my knowledge of the area, please be my guest. But you will have to demonstrate that you have at least a basic idea of the topic. I don't have any great desire to do anything for someone who simply whines, can't figure out what linear operation is as 'everything has distortion'. (Duh!)

If you want the sources, I may list some of them. Then you can get off you *** and go read them TubeBoy.

The fact that you don't even know to what I am referring, and have no basis for any comments except for your arrogance and ignorance and your presence on the forum for the purpose of selling your products does not render me accountable to you to do anything.

You see, I am not looking to buy your product, I already have both solid state and tube equipment. And unless you happen to have a Crown K2 in great shape, you haven't said anything that hasn't been covered in greater detail and accuracy in an intro circuits class. But you have continued sufficiently to display your grand ignorance for areas of audio and acoustics that anyone involved in the area would do well to familiarize themselves.

The fact is, I don't are about what you speak. We've been there and done that. Your profound "all amps have distortion" speech was impressive, not for its insight but for the fact that you think that this is where the discussion should be. Does that grand insight normally impress your prospective customers? Then your ignorance of issues pertaining to the time domain and other related domains must really impress your prospective customers! Is this some trendy - "who needs to be familiar with current technology" marketing approach? Or is this a novel marketing pitch to the Luddite "technology and science is evil" market space so popular these days?

Its obvious that you haven't even done a web search for a cursory introduction to the subject matter of which you proudly parade your ignorance.

And its been fun. But when you aren't even smart enough to recognize the jokes and the intended humor, your sales must really be slipping.

But you might want to go with that trendy "All amplifiers have distortion" line. And you might add, "...and thats the good news! But we don't screw around with noise, we revel in it! That's why we feature the 6DJ8 in our designs!"

That will show them just how serious you are about distortion. And no one will be able to challenge you in that regard.

ROFLMAO

[mas]

So do all of these posts on this thread mean that there is no black or white answer to my question? []

Some of us have already suggested that you can do well with either SS or tubes. And no, there is no one definitive route that you must take. Besides, many other factors present a much larger opportunity to make a very apparent improvement in your listening experience - especially when considered in terms of ROI..

Just beware of those with a vested interest in selling you or others a particular topology product.

[Parrot]

Your continued attempts to paint everyone here is ignorant and incapable of understanding anything about the choices they make is supported by your continual "rephrasing" or simply lying about what has been said.

Speak for yourself, dude. You may think he's painting you as ignorant, but I don't feel offended.

lol, were you even in the conversation? Why would you be offended?

I was referring to the comment about attempting to paint EVERYONE as ignorant. But that wasn't what mas had said; it was just a bad paraphrase.

But anyway, I like to stay out of these flame wars. A little bird with singed feathers is a sorry sight. But I am ashamed that EVERYONE else loves these threads. You can usually identify a flame war thread even without opening it, because it'll be the one with the most pages.

[anarchist]

Even the insults are pathetic and repeated ad nauseum; unfortunately they too aren't a creative thought possessed by Mas but rather the mere repetition of a response conceived, encouraged and egged on by another - in this case the innocent Parrot.

Sometimes I don't know where Mark gets the patience.

To the originator of this thread, the simple answer is tubes will bring a realism and palpability to your music you never thought possible. Tubes are oozing with life while the other is sterile. I used to disbelieve it myself until I listened to my first tube amp - fortunately I bought a great one based on the feedback and encouragement I received here. Most here who have tried a good tube amp would never go back.

Building a Home theater - buy a SS amp. Building a dedicated music system - buy a tube amp. Can't make a decision - buy a tube preamp and a SS amp. Doesn't require any theories, math or anything else - given the generalities which were used in an attempt to justify anothers position, this advice is hard-core science.

[pauln]

Mas,

I am prescribing you a dose of PMID (Pre-emptive Meltdown Intervention Distraction) to give you some time to cool off... its a distortion calculation:

Rx - Perform PMID Calculation, take mentally with Music

If current at zero volt grid bias is 115ma, and current at half the quiescent bias voltage is 89ma, and the quiescent current is 65ma, and the current at one and one half times the quiescent bias voltage is 42ma, and the current at twice the quiescent bias voltage is 23ma; then what are the 2nd, 3rd, and 4rth harmonic distortion percentages?

Dr. Pauln

[Audio Flynn]

Your continued attempts to paint everyone here is ignorant and incapable of understanding anything about the choices they make is supported by your continual "rephrasing" or simply lying about what has been said.

Speak for yourself, dude. You may think he's painting you as ignorant, but I don't feel offended.

lol, were you even in the conversation? Why would you be offended?

I was referring to the comment about attempting to paint EVERYONE as ignorant. But that wasn't what mas had said; it was just a bad paraphrase.

But anyway, I like to stay out of these flame wars. A little bird with singed feathers is a sorry sight. But I am ashamed that EVERYONE else loves these threads. You can usually identify a flame war thread even without opening it, because it'll be the one with the most pages.

I guess this one is way too weird to get part of the fray.

Blanket statements about the 6DJ8 noise seems to not apply to me.

Mas maybe needs to fill out his profile so we can understand his premises from a hardware standpoint at least.

Where the hell is the ibuprophen...

[Deang]

"Your profound "all amps have distortion" speech was impressive, not for its insight but for the fact that you think that this is where the discussion should be."

That's rich. Since the discussion was centered around amplifiers, it seems like a good place to be. I feel bad that I'm so stupid. I was hoping that while reading through the white paper posts I would find something that could help someone decide if they might like a tube amp or not.

Tough to learn anything from someone who can't impart it without patronizing and hurling insults while pushing my face down into the book. A few more of those outbursts and you'll find yourself looking for another forum. Since everyone is obviously impressed beyond measure with your pure genius, I'm sure at least half will quit the forum in protest, and follow you to the ends of earth.

[Mike Lindsey]

Mas sounds like a 20 something know-it-all with too many degrees, and no respect for his elders. I meet these guys every day in my line of business. There is no doubt that he is smarter than I am, and also no doubt he has a smaller circle of friends. He throws around a lot of big words but in the end doesn't really say anything. Just another poster that likes to hear himself talk. I am certain if we don't respond to him he'll eventually just go away.

BTW, this has been a very entertaining thread. Boomac would be proud...

Mike

[PrestonTom]

Tom--

With all due respect to you, who has criticized Heyser's work in this thread? Please, let's get specific, ok? Let's stop making up strawman arguments from thin air. Who criticized Heyser? And, who credited MAS with inventing these techniques? I think anyone who has been in audio for more than a couple years knows who Heyser is, and something about his work. I can't recall any post in here which discredits Heyser, or for that matter science, or measurements. Mas is not Heyser, ok? Criticizing Mas is not the same as criticizing Heyser just because he drops that name 12 times in every post. I think a good many people, like myself, have said that measurements simply don't tell the whole story. That's not at all the same as "discounting science" or bashing Heyser now, is it?

You yourself proposed a simple test setup for determining amplifier and speaker neutrality a few posts back. I asked you some simple questions to complete your thought experiment and you have yet to answer. Assuming you do, we'll have something to talk about. But simply SUGGESTING there are measurements is not the same as having them, is it? The criticism of Mas is not that he regards Heyser's work - - it's his reference to Heyser as "the answer" without ever making any use of it to rebut any specific argument, or make a specific point. Knowing that a branch of science exists, and knowing some of the terminology or buzzwords used is NOT the same as knowing the science.

Speaking for myself only, I can say I am happy to learn anything new that has utility in my work. I'd love to have a new meaningful measurement regarding, let's say, amplifiers. However, not a soul here as presented anything like that in this thread. Nothing. Not you, not Mas, not anyone. So, lecturing everyone here as though they don't believe in science, when none has been presented, is well...a bit cheeky. Good luck.

I am confused why you think I am making strawman arguments. I was clear to me from the posts, including yours, that this was an attack on the techniques that MAS is advocating. I think the techniques are worth exploring. That is my simple view.

As far as your questions, I think it is a fairly straight forward measurement issue. There might be some interesting details to discuss; however, you have a great deal of anger that is spilling over toward an attack on me. I am sorry if you thought I was "lecturing" but many of the posts do indicate an "anti-measurement bias" that I disagree with. This my simple response.

Quite frankly due to the attitude, I will not bother answering your specific questions. There is already sufficient information and I have no interest in dealing with your anger.

-Tom

[PrestonTom]

The good news is that with all this nonsense above, I am about to break a 1000 posts.

I imagine there is secret handshake that I will need to learn.

[Parrot]

I guess this ranting has become very tedious.

For those of you who are interested, much of what is being referred to (and criticized) is work done primarily by Richard Heyser. Some of you will recognize his name as a reviewer at Audio magazine. In fact he did one of the more interesting reviews of the Klipschorn years ago. His name is also strongly associated with Time Delay Spectroscopy. He regularly published in J. Audio Engineering Society. A complilation of that work is:

Time Delay Spectrometry, softbound, 280 pages, 8.25" by 11.25", is available from Audio Engineering Society Inc

Don Davis also has an updated version of "Sound System Engineering" This uses& explains many of the ideas being discussed.

Although some of you have been gracious enough to credit MAS with inventing these techniques, they actually have a longer and more widespread history and following. Some of the researchers that MAS has mentioned (Richard Heyser, Don Davis, DB Keele - who incidentally was associated with Klipsch Inc at one time) are/were heavy hitters in the audio field. If you are attacking their thinking and work, then you are probably on very thin ice. The is much to be learned from those folks.

At one level this is an engineering & scientific endeavor. There is a great deal of math and physics involved, simply as a preliminary background. It would be nice if these things could be simply summarized, but such summaries end up being simplistic (i.e., "lite" definitions of group delay and impedance). It ends up being frustrating for all concerned. However, at many levels it not a requirement that one understands TDS, systems analysis or whatever. Nor does one need to run a TDS on Klipschorn to appreciate that it is something special. However, the idea that things can not be measured or that physics & engineering should be thrown out the door when audio equipment is being created or is being discussed is bothersome. I work as a scientist, I believe MAS is a practicing engineer. It took some effort to get there, it is not a mtter of owning some audio equipment. Doctors & Lawyers simply don't just hang up their shingle one day and practice. I am not sure what everyone's background is, but I am certain that it is probably fairly varied. Someone mentioned earlier the distinction between engineering and tinkering. I believe this is an apt one. Certainly contributions can result from tinkering - but it can also be haphazard. Having these additional tools is helpful if not crucial. Now the task becomes more systematic and I am biased I don't think the idea of doing something "by ear" (unless it is the final stages) is a systematic approach. I confess, this is my bias. However, these tools do require some homework. When I started working with digital sound, I had to learn quite a bit. You do not pick it up by osmosis or by making some lucky guesses.

Having said this, do you need a dgree in engineering, or physics etc. to enjoy audio? Absolutely not. However, should you blindly argue against something that you have not yet studied for yourself? I'll let others answer that.

Again, what is being discussed (and criticized) was developed by some heavy hitters in the field. Large parts of it I remain ignorant of. But that is simply a reason to learn about it rather than than to ignore it.

Good Luck,

-Tom

An excellent, well-thought-out, reasonable post, Tom. I took the liberty of boldfacing the line I particularly liked.

[DrWho]

Mas sounds like a 20 something know-it-all with too many degrees, and no respect for his elders. I meet these guys every day in my line of business. There is no doubt that he is smarter than I am, and also no doubt he has a smaller circle of friends. He throws around a lot of big words but in the end doesn't really say anything. Just another poster that likes to hear himself talk. I am certain if we don't respond to him he'll eventually just go away.

lol, I guess that's one way to describe the typical sound guy....the second you create a profession that requires the extremes of art and science mixed together, you end up with people that will try to objectively claim why their subjective views are better - it's what makes them so good at what they do! Then combine that with awfully dry humor and a crazy writing style and I can totally see how mas comes across as an arrogant know-it-all...

Y'all should talk with him over the phone and you'll quickly realize where he's coming from (or rather learn that you're from a different world). It's kinda like Parrot - until you meet him in person he just pisses you off all the time. After you meet him, he just pisses you off some of the time [] I personally have learned a lot from mas and it'd be nice if everyone else could suck up their ego and try to understand where he's coming from - even if he comes across in the most obtuse way.

But the best part about mas is he's really not arrogant - I can see how he comes across that way in his writing style, but he's more full of questions than answers and the first to admit it. Everyone's been complaining about the forum getting boring....I can only imagine it has to do with so many people trying to run off the people that think differently.

[Parrot]

.

[kev313]

Well this was a painful read, but here are my thoughts:

1. Parrot, what is that story with you and Mark? It's been painfully obvious for months that you are waging some type of anti-Deneen campaign. (whoich you've done in classic Parrot style - leaving just enough leeway in your comments that you can deny the existance of the attack (although not with a straight face)).

2. Can I enjoy 2-channel audio without being an engineer? Apparently not.

3. I think I like distortion.[:$]

4. I really thought Mas was Dragonfyr, but since I kinda like Mas I assume that he is not.

[Arky]

mas

I enjoy your posts & I learn things audio exploring your posted links....Thank You.

I do not enjoy reading the personal name calling attacks contained within (lately) & think it beneath you. If it is meant as humor it escapes me....No Thanks.

Hey, if Who vouches for ya you can't be all bad. []

...and yes Boomac should like this one.

Edited for specifics...and for parrot.

[anarchist]

The good news is we have identified another clique with an identified membership. So we now have the set clique, the no-set clique, the pro-jub clique, the no-fugly-speakers clique, the circle-jerk clique, and the please-write-something-that-is-intelligible clique. Membership in one clique isn't necessarily exclusive and some birds fly the coop from one to the other.

The irony in all this are folks trying to lecture a proponent of measurements and science. Its a riot (albeit moronic) watching an objectivist being attacked for being a subjectivist by objectivists who can't explain the science behind their subjective and generalized assertions. Frankly, I don't think they even understand what they are trying to prove or disprove anymore and it was entirely irrelevant to the original question in any case. I am sure many have been enlightened by all the drivel cloaked so pedantically.

[joshnich]

Hey agcllc

If you are interested in trying out a tube amp, drop me a note. Ill lend you one. Give it a shot and then you will be able to hear for yourself what folks here are saying about the "tube sound" What matters is what you hear and what you like. If you dont like it as much as SS ( I cant imagine that would be the case regardless of what Heyers or anyone else'e numbers say) than so ne it!

Let me know. All you will be out is the shipping.

Josh

[anarchist]

Nice Josh. Now he has a simple answer to his question and can answer it for himself. Hopefully he takes you up on it.

[Parrot]

I do not enjoy reading the personal attacks contained within (lately) & think it beneath you. If it is meant as humor it escapes me....No Thanks.

I don't know, did you skip the twenty, thirty, forty posts in which mas was attacked and mocked? I recall one in which MDeneen referred to him as a liar.

On a personal note, it was kind of refreshing to see a flame war that I was not the focus of, but then of course Anarchist's paranoia got into overdrive and he figured everything was my doing, as usual.

X: Straw man!

Y: Straw man!

X: You!

Y: You!

X: You you you times ten!

Y: You you you times a million!

X: You you you to infinity!!!

If we really want to answer the original question, and that is rarely done in the Klipsch Forum once you get past the first page, then the answer is, Check tubes out for yourself, but stay away from SET whatever you do.

And the other question that needs an answer is Where did the bow tie go?

[DrWho]

lol Paul, always knocking on SET every chance you get []

I agree though, let your own ears do the deciding. That offer to demo a tube amp for free at the cost of shipping is definitely an offer I would consider (and one of the reasons this forum is so awesome). Just keep in mind that if you don't care for the tube sound, that all the tube lovers will go off on all sorts of crazy stuff to justify why you need to give brands XYZ a try instead. And then of course the SS crowd will be telling ya "told ya so" and then you'll never hear the opinion of the SET crowd cuz they like to listen to music while on the computer and the sound of typing drowns out the music...

What kinds of music do you listen to and how do you listen to it? Dedicated listening sessions? Jamming around the house? background music? Loud? Quiet? Relaxing?

And secondly, are you interested in replacing your tubes every so often and dealing with the bias and warming everything up before listening and all that crap associated with tubes? It quickly becomes a full time endeavor keeping the things running in their linear range. Some love that tinkering part of the hobby - I would rather just sit down and enjoy some tunes.