Subwoofer w/ Cornwalls for 2-channel hifi?

[Allan Songer]

I have tried a few subs in my system including Klipsch, Velodyne, Sunfire and all of them totally messed up the timing and overall timbre of the music, even though they definately added a more firm bottom end. I read with interest the lastet "Listner" (here's a BUNNY!) subwoofer survey and Art Dudley really made me want to try the new Linn Sizmik.

Has anyone out there successfully integrated a sub with a pair of Cornwalls?

My System (just the basics):

Pair of McIntosh MC-30 monoblocks (w. GEC KT-66)

McIntosh C-22

Thorens TD124/SME 3012/Ortofon SPU

BAT VK-D5 CD player

The only thing I really want to improve is the tightness and autority of the lowest registers--THIS IS NOT A HOME THEATRE APPLICATION! I listen to 1950's and 1960's jazz 90% of the time (90% vinyl/10% CD).

[Mike Lindsey]

Allan,

I think you should take a look at the SVS subs www.svsubwoofers.com . I have a 20-39CS with the Samson S700 amp (350 w/ch) and couldn't be happier. I have a pair of Chorus II's and Chorus I's that I run with this sub and feel it is very musical. I have played this system at over 105 watts continuous and it has no problem keeping up. Tom Vodhanel (TV on this board) is the "V" in SVS and can answer any technical questions you may have. I believe the sub and amp go for about $825 if that is within your budget...

Mike

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My Music Systems

[Stu Pidass]

Try auditioning a Paradigm PW2200. Very excellant sub at a reasonable price. I have one mated with a pair of 1981 Cornwalls. The sub is noted for being "very musical" whatever that means. I connected it to the same binding posts as my Cornwalls, adjusted the crossover to it's lowest point (50 hz) and then played with the volume until it was just right. Sounds like majic to my ears but let yours be the judge.

PS - Make sure it's broken in before passing judgement. Good luck.

[Ray Garrison]

Allen,

When you say that "...all of then totally messed up the timing and overall timbre of the music...", given the different ones that you tried, I think one of two things is happening:

a) You don't like subwoofers. There is no denying the fact that a subwoofer, ANY subwoofer, is a different and distinct source from the main speakers, and there's nothing you can do about that. Some folks (ME!) don't seem to be bothered by, or in most cases even notice this discontinuity. Others, Tom Brennen springing to mind, find this completely, totally and absolutely unacceptable because it fundamentally changes the character of their system. If this is the case, I'd sure make sure you can return any sub you get for auditioning, because I don't think you're going to ever find one you can live with.

(and to my mind more likely, but then, i *LIKE* my subwoofer ) Maybe you didn't have them balanced in with the Cornwalls properly. If you had the volume and cutoff frequency adjusted so that you could "hear" the subwoofer(s) doing something, then you probably had them set at too high a level and cutting off to late. A properly balanced sub should be *INAUDIBLE* almost all the time, and only noticed by its absense when you turn it OFF. How'd you go about setting them up?

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Music is art

Audio is engineering

Ray's Music System

[eq_shadimar]

I use an SVS 20-39CS with my Cornwalls for 2 channel listening and I think they are very well matched. The combo works great for music and HT in my opinion.

Laters,

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...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world...

My Home Theater Page

[mobile homeless]

I guess for once I agree with ole Tom! Well, perhaps we have agreed a couple of times ... Seriously, I agree with Ray's first part and Allen in general. I have never heard a sub that I felt really worked enough to my liking to leave it in for long term, critical listening or not.

Frankly, while it does bring a nice foundation, I think its faults are more glaring. I have heard some great subs but I have to say that a proper system does not really benefit from the use of a sub, especially two channel with 50s and 60s jazz, something I have A LOT of and listen to quite a bit.

I think the right wire, amp, preamp, and sources will give you plenty of quality bass in a well balanced room. I am getting VERY powerful and articulate bass with my Linn, Rega Planet, Cary, 2A3 Moondogs, and 77 Cornwalls. My room IS small but the bass is VERY nice. IF fact, if you listen to small group jazz having a subwoofer is really not needed. Of course, the HT crowd wants to hear The Matrix rip the floorboards up...but for real music, having a subwoofer slows the system down and you lose a bit of the speed and articulation. Of course, the bass fiends cannot do without it...but I find the bass to be a very hard thing to get right... and if you are a standup bass jazz lover, a subwoofer is not doing you any favors.

What wire are you running?

kh

[Allan Songer]

First-- I was VERY careful about setting up the subwoofers I auditioned. HOURS playing with location and settings and volume and listening to JUST the subwoofer, etc.

Second-- I use Wireworld Oasis speaker cable and Silver Audio Hyacinth interconnects. I used laugh at high priced wire until I started to fool around with the "good" stuff. Now I am a true believer.

I am happy with the bass from the Cornwalls, but am very open to improvements. I can't think of any way to improve anyting else with this speaker (I have the original ALK networks for the Cornwall and was one of the original "auditioners" for these; I've rope-caulker the squaker and tweeter and have rewired the cabinet with DH Labs stuff).

[mike stehr]

Sounds like it boils down to one's taste in

music.

I have two SVS 16/46's to go with a two channel

system with Chorus II's.

This is plain overkill in most eyes, but not

with my taste in music.

You want the sub to extend the bottom end

smoothly and matched as possible with the mains,IMO.

So there is no need to crank them up.

But the Cornwalls are horn loaded on the Bass,

not passive radiators like Chorus's.

So on that note, I gotta agree with Kelly and

Tom's ideas.

Either your taste in music doesn't require

absolute bottom end, or you need a monstorous

high-effciency horn-loaded sub cab with many drivers.

Looks like all the Klipsch Pro sound subs are ported,

or Bass reflex.

These probably won't help much.

THANX!

[eq_shadimar]

I would agree with Mike that maybe it is your music tastes. In my opinion electronic, club, dance, trance, or techno music needs a sub to be complete (and yes I do consider this "real" music. It is the 00's right?)

On the other hand my SVS hangs right in there with classical and jazz too but it is not nearly as active. I am using SS amplification and the bass management so maybe that is where the match is occuring...dunno.

FWIW Tom V (the V in SVS) owns KLF-30's so I wouldn't be at all suprised that the SVS's match up well.

Opinions on Tubies, vinyl, and subwoofers...couldn't tell ya. No experience there.

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...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world...

My Home Theater Page

This message has been edited by eq_shadimar on 12-11-2001 at 05:45 PM

[Mike Lindsey]

Mike,

The Cornwalls are not horn loaded. Only the Khorns, Belles and La Scala's are. They have a 15" woof just like your Chorus II's...

Mike

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My Music Systems

[Klipschguy]

Hey Allan,

I had exactly the same situation with my Cornwalls. I liked the bass of my Cornwalls (F3=38Hz), but wanted the real low bass that can be found in some music recordings. I listen to mostly CD's (Jazz, Classical, Country, Rock, etc.), but also to vinyl. No interst in HT. Like you, I wanted to experience the low bass, but in a MUSICAL way. I can't stand flabby or boomy subs. And I don't really care if a sub puts out 120dB at 20Hz - that's not what I need. My sub needs to sweetly blend and fill in below 38Hz with my Cornwalls.

After my research and some listening, I decided to go with a sealed enclosure sub for "tightness." I bought a beautiful walnut veneered M&K Volkswoofer off Ebay (for $137.50!!!!!ALL SMILES!!!). The sub has a sealed enclosure with a 12" driver and was designed as a "music sub." Build, fit and finish are all excellent.

My Cornwalls are run full range, the crossover point on the sub is set low, and volume is brought up just enough to properly blend with the Cornwalls. I've found the best way to blend the sub is to play some music with a lot of very deep bass (the deeper the better) and the volume at a moderate level (the system volume, not the sub's). Then slowly bring the sub volume up to a natural level, where the bass is not "overdone" (while you're in the listening spot). Then leave it! You're system should now be reproducing deep bass as is appropriate to various recordings - some recordings will have it, some won't.

On a lot of music I can't even hear the sub (i.e. no contibution to the Cornwalls whether the sub is on or off). HOWEVER, when a low bass signal is fed to the sub from a good recording, it reproduces it in an accurate, natural, punchy, deep, clean, appropriate to the recording, way. The deep bass is very nice and blends beautifully. I can feel it in a subtle but powerful way. It far exceeded my expectations which is rather unusual for me.

Also, this sub is probably not appropriate for Home Theater wall cracking, but for music is sure is lovely. By the way it does sound fine with movies too. For me, I like the deep bass to be subtle and natural like a live performance.

You don't hear too much about M&K here, but they're worth checking out. Website is MKsound.com. I also think there is a Volkswoofer on Ebay right now if your interested.

Just my opinion, hope this helps,

Andy

[Colin]

I agree with the klispchguy, Ray as usual, but strangely not this time with the mobile one. It may not be high fidelity, but I love what a deep bass sub-woofer can do for movies, especially the Matrix, but many others as well. "Life is Beautiful" is a tragically poignant comedy, for example, which is enhanced by sub-woofers. When the Nazi trucks take the hero away, when the final solution train leaves the station with the wife and when the American victors roll their tanks into the compound's square, all of these scenes rumble with sub-woofer bass. Many movies have dark earth tones in them which can use a sub-woofer.

Unfortunately, the big old Cornwalls are full range speakers, so not just any sub-woofer will do. Most of the mid-bass sub-woofers sold around the $500 price point today will not help them much, even with the EQ knob dialed down as low as possible.

My Klipsch KSW200, for example, was great for movies when I first got it, although its peak in spectrum is about 60 Hz. This meant that I could not get any punch from it without it intruding on the Cornwalls low end. The result made the Cornwall bass boomy. They could help with the low-end, but not dramatically. (Hey, what did you expect for $250?)

Klipschguy and Ray are absolutely right, the subs have to be dialed up behind the music so that most of the time you have no idea they are even there. (This makes the little green light on the front a very nice feature. A remote control would be a wonderful feature as I am constantly dialing sub volume over the top for action movies and down for music.) The best way to do this is with a test CD and a Radio Shack SPL meter. I did dial a flat frequency response before I used the meter, but it was just as they said, so low that you do not hear the sub.

A year after the KSW200, I added the notorious Klipsch LF10 for $450 off uBid.com. This is a much better sub-woofer for the Cornwall. It was designed to sell at the $1000 to $1200 price point, so that gives you some idea of the level of performance it competed with. The ears and TV can list several currently available models that will match its performance. I can not speak about the speed of LF10 bass, for I am not sure how "fast" 30 cycles per second bass really is. Those are some awfully long waves, we are talking about here, but the LF10 does help with the low end.

The bump in the LF10 response curve is about 40 Hz, so it too can intrude on the Cornwalls lower end if too much volume is used. My EQ on this sub is also set at its lowest level and volume for much of my music listening is now half-way, about 12:00 on the dial. Even that is probably more than a perfectly flat response would dictate, but I confess to be a bass lover. I think bass lower than 40 Hz adds so much to movies and music.

My Cornwalls begin to fall away at 63 Hz in my room without any bottom end support. At 50 Hz, they are 13 dB below the 1 kHz level. By 31.5 Hz, they are down 19 dB from the 1 kHz level, as measured on a SS amp. Probably less with my flea-powered 2A3 Paramours. These levels are inaudible at my normal listening volume about 73-76 dB. Using a deep bass sub like the LF10, I can increase the frequency response at 50 Hz by 4 1/2 dB and extend it down to 31.5 Hz, but 25 Hz is still inaudible. The subs bump up below that. In fact, about half-way on the volume dial they give a boost of 18 1/2 dB at 32.5 Hz. This is much too much for a ideally flat response, but it sure is nice to hear low bass at normal listening levels.

Even with the subs, bass response is inaudible at the 25 Hz, so there is no telling how much I am getting at the 15 Hz sensory level - probably none at all.

I would love to be able to get a 15 to 25 kHz response within 1.5 dB at the 73- 76 dB level ...with horns!

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Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing!

This message has been edited by Colin on 12-11-2001 at 08:26 PM

[mobile homeless]

Simply put, I don't like mixing music and video in the same system. For a music only system, especially one that concentrates on 50s and 60s acoustic jazz as Allan's does, I would find a subwoofer intrusive and not fast nor articulate enough to keep from mucking up an extremely good SET amp and horn speakers.

That being said, I understand Andy's points and if you are to have a sub, then that is the best way to implement it, doing the least harm to the rest of the audio band.

I have said this numerous times that an amp like the 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks with the Cornwalls in a smallish room, properly set up can really deliver very fast, articulate, deep, musically satisfying bass. The amps HAVE to have top notch output transformers and an excellent power supply. I am getting more SLAM in the bass then my friend is with his Bryston 4B-ST! I repeat - MORE slam...and the 4B-ST is a 250w solid state bass champion! To say his jaw was on the floor is an understatement.

That being said #2, I DO like subs with HT systems! I just don't like HT with my 2 channel music.

kh

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-12-2001 at 01:15 AM

[TBrennan]

Allan--I'd just leave the CWs alone. I owned them and was very happy with the bass and I play bass and drums, I know what the stuff sounds like. Given that you like 50s and 60s jazz...most of those drummers were using those punchy little 18 and 20" Gretsch bassdrums, I've owned 20s and they don't go deep, a CW will reproduce one fine. The open E on a bass is only 41-42 cycles with the fundamental down several db from the harmonic around 80. And with electric bass, well most cabinets used playing that instrument don't even go near 40 cycles flat, especially the Fender Bassman and Dual Showman rigs popular back then, though the Ampeg B-15 went lower I doubt it goes as low as a CW. So for the music you like I think the CW is getting it all.

[Klipschguy]

Hey guys,

JUST IN CASE you're interested, there is indeed an M&K Volkswoofer on Ebay: walnut veneer, 12" driver, sealed trapazoidal shaped enclosure (avoids internal standing waves), and a 200W amp. Auction ends 12/13/01 at 9:29 Eastern time. Bid is at $182. IF per chance one of you guys get it, let me know how you like it.

Note: The Volkswoofer was originally designed by Ken Kreisel for reproducing deep organ notes, particularly the transient information of the organ petals. He was recording a lot of organ music and wanted to hear the low frequency information he knew was there.

By the way, great input from everybody on this thread. It's nice to see a discussion on subs with two channel music.

Warm, happy regards,

Andy

This message has been edited by Klipschguy on 12-12-2001 at 03:58 PM

[TheEAR]

Allan,

I think after reading your post and if you want a "music" sub you should look at these...

JBL Ti-K sub(absolute marvel,CHECK IT OUT)

SVS Ultra(single unit) with Bryston 250W(400 into 4Ohms amd module)great buy,a bargain!Oh and you will need the EQ SVS sells...the sub is passive.

Aerial Acoustics SW12(like the JBL,less output,gorgeous finish,superb built quality)

The above subs are musical and have power when needed,

a you can hear the largest pipe organs if you want,full scale.

These dont add boom,they add a solid and real foundation.Not nasty coloration.

With gear like yours you dont want a cheapo sub,quality first.

Hope this helps

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[Klipschguy]

I wouldn't call an M&K a "cheapo" sub. Their decent 12" sealed subs run right around a grand. The V2-B Volkswoofer, while no longer available, would fall into this category.

Anyway, its all personal taste and I basically agree with all the opinions in this thread - they are just from different perspectives. As always: let your own ears be the judge.

Warm regards,

Andy

This message has been edited by Klipschguy on 12-13-2001 at 05:23 PM

[Allan Songer]

Well, I just won an acution for a Linn Sizmik on ebay for just over a thousand bucks. I figure if I hate it I can sell for close to what I'm paying.

I'll keep you all informed as to what I think.

[Klipschguy]

Very nice sub. Congratulations. Let us know how it works out.

Andy

[edster00]

Alan,

That is a great looking sub! Congrats! Let us know how you like it.

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Ed W