SET, yes. 2A3 Moondogs, absolutely!

[Deang]

"Part of that might have to do with what sort of tonal characteristics one likes, and in my case that's probably a little more to the cool side than warm. I'm not talking about blistering detail, but a slightly sharper sort of edge, as it were, to the sound."

That's where I ended up (but it's not where I started).

[kev313]

"Part of that might have to do with what sort of tonal characteristics one likes, and in my case that's probably a little more to the cool side than warm.   I'm not talking about blistering detail, but a slightly sharper sort of edge, as it were, to the sound."

That's where I ended up (but it's not where I started).

It's all about what's in between.

Have fun!

[jazman]

I wouldn't play "acoustic jazz" at high volumes either and bet 1/4 watt would be too loud for me if I had to listen to it for long. []

So much for musical tastes, huh? Coldplay is my mellow stuff. I keep trying to listen to jazz from time to time but Jesus, what torture.

Anyway,

I would like to hear your opinions Jazman on the different equipment you did hear. This is our first chance to hear some comparative reviews of VRD's vs. pCats vs. set vs. others. Take volume out of the equation and lets hear about the nuances between the various amps.

I can try to gather some thoughts and write my impreessions. It will likely require a few days to get it written though. Work always manages to interfere with my free time, but I think your question is legit.

Klipsch out.

[jazman]

"@Gary,

I have no idea why vinyl playback should lead to different listening results than using CDs.....especially if you always use the same phono-/linestage and only swap power amps. Anyway, to my ears the source doesn't matter (in terms of evaluating the tone of each amp)......each amp has its own flavour.Wolfram

Wolfram,

I don't know why that was the case but the 4 or 5 of us in the room all heard the same thing. Maybe a really good vinyl rig brings out more of the amps character then a CD player/SACD player."

Gary

I think it's possible most CD players sound like crap. A good vinyl rig will usually have a good cartridge in the playback loop.

Klipsch out.

[Audible Nectar]

"Part of that might have to do with what sort of tonal characteristics one likes, and in my case that's probably a little more to the cool side than warm. I'm not talking about blistering detail, but a slightly sharper sort of edge, as it were, to the sound."

That's where I ended up (but it's not where I started).

It's all about what's in between.

Have fun!

Yes it is. I find myself seeking that "in between" the more time I spend tweaking my gear. Even in the realm of the amp used (for me, the MC30), I started with a warm, cushy, and at times "rolled off" sound that grew "old" over time. Through cap selection we "opened" this amp up sonically and just let the circuit and tubes shine through. These amps now sit in that "in between" area that Dean and Kevin speak of - that balance of cool/warm, with accurate detail and natural sound.

While not SET, I use my MC30s for much the same reasons sonically that SET users do thier amps: for acoustic/unamplified music is where these excel.....I think of these as my "SET", even though they aren't. They possess much of the SET allure for me (especially with good outputs), without having to give up power (the main reason I didn't buy SET for my main system - and thought seriously about 300B). It's funny that I end up having similar GOALS to SET users, just in my own "realm" and preferences to get there.

I still look "forward" with SET in mind, as I figure to play more with that in the future, possibly with some kit setups. I am in the process of "firming up" my system choices for the long haul (all PP and SS amps), but figure some SET kits will give me something to explore later, just for something different. I have an understanding as to the benefits of SET, and while I find the power restrictions get in my way of using them for my main systems, there are sufficient goodies to know that I will want to play with SET in the future.

I too look forward to Jazman's comments on the varying topologies, and I look forward to open discussion of all the topologies. There's good in all of them, so let's enjoy them for what they are[]

[Erik Mandaville]

I agree about some of the limitations of SET amplifiers. I have a few of them, and enjoy them tons. I also found that a little more horsepower is really a benefit for home theater sound tracks. I suspect part of that has to do with the fact that I've learned to enjoy some of the really amazing dynamics available with HT, and those huge shifts in contrast between dialogue and effects is something that, for me, is much improved with more power. This isn't to say that triode amps aren't capable of very good, clean and loud SPLs, because I hear that all the time with music. The Moondogs, or Moth on Klipschorns can be awesome. Same with the Horus parafeed amps from a few years back. That amplifier, to me, was very much an in-between sort of design in terms of the cool/warm color temp. thing. With no coupling capacitors between stages, so is the Moth si2A3. The Horus was actually similar in ways to the SE OTL mentioned above. Kind of wish I still had them sometimes, but that's not out of the realm of possibility. It's the kind of amp that Bottlehead specializes in, too, and it's not a new approach to vacuum tube audio.

I agree and appreciate the comment about enjoying different designs for what they are.

edit: Erik (forgot my name)

[jazman]

I agree about some of the limitations of SET amplifiers. I have a few of them, and enjoy them tons. I also found that a little more horsepower is really a benefit for home theater sound tracks. I suspect part of that has to do with the fact that I've learned to enjoy some of the really amazing dynamics available with HT, and those huge shifts in contrast between dialogue and effects is something that, for me, is much improved with more power. This isn't to say that triode amps aren't capable of very good, clean and loud SPLs, because I hear that all the time with music. The Moondogs, or Moth on Klipschorns can be awesome. Same with the Horus parafeed amps from a few years back. That amplifier, to me, was very much an in-between sort of design in terms of the cool/warm color temp. thing. With no coupling capacitors between stages, so is the Moth si2A3. The Horus was actually similar in ways to the SE OTL mentioned above. Kind of wish I still had them sometimes, but that's not out of the realm of possibility. It's the kind of amp that Bottlehead specializes in, too, and it's not a new approach to vacuum tube audio.

I agree and appreciate the comment about enjoying different designs for what they are.

edit: Erik (forgot my name)

Erik,

Wrong forum. This is 2 Channel. This thread really has nothing to do with Home Theater. Thanks.

Klipsch out.

[Piranha]

If you want to listen to jazz while conversing at dinner time you should probably consider a good SET amp as this is where they excel. Otherwise I'd go with pCAT's, VRD's or any other quality PP amp.

[joshnich]

I think you are off base here. The moonies I heard would be a little to loud to hold comfortable conversation given the volume that they delivered. Maybe you like yelling at dinner. Having said that, at any level I would prefer the pCATS

josh

[kev313]

If you want to listen to jazz while conversing at dinner time you should probably consider a good SET amp as this is where they excel. Otherwise I'd go with pCAT's, VRD's or any other quality PP amp.

Why would you even waste your time typing that? What could possibly be your motivation? Is simply it to take a swipe at SET? Why do you care if other members of this forum enjoy an amp topology other than push pull? I cannot imagine that anyone's life would be so empty, so utterly devoid of anything else to do, that making those statments would constitute a good use of leisure time.

Oh well...different strokes for different folks, I guess. I would recommend, however, that if you decide that this is, indeed, the way you want to spend your time you should actively work at getting better at it.

[meagain]

Oh SNAP! []

[Piranha]

I think you are off base here. The moonies I heard would be a little to loud to hold comfortable conversation given the volume that they delivered. Maybe you like yelling at dinner. Having said that, at any level I would prefer the pCATS

josh

Josh, I don't recall mentioning anything about the SET amps playing loud over dinner? And to answer your question, no I do not like yelling at dinner. That would be rude. Perhaps you misinterpreted what I said, so please allow me clarify it for you. SET amps excel at low volume with jazz, we all know that and not many would disagree, certainly not I. So I'll respectfully disagree with you as I'd prefer a SET amp for low level jazz listening, and pCATS or another quality amp for all other listening levels and and genres including jazz.

[joshnich]

I think you are off base here. The moonies I heard would be a little to loud to hold comfortable conversation given the volume that they delivered. Maybe you like yelling at dinner. Having said that, at any level I would prefer the pCATS

josh

Josh, I don't recall mentioning anything about the SET amps playing loud over dinner? And to answer your question, no I do not like yelling at dinner. That would be rude. Perhaps you misinterpreted what I said, so please allow me clarify it for you. SET amps excel at low volume with jazz, we all know that and not many would disagree, certainly not I. So I'll respectfully disagree with you as I'd prefer a SET amp for low level jazz listening, and pCATS or another quality amp for all other listening levels and and genres including jazz.

I will respectively suggest that you and everyone reading this know what your intentions are. I am not going to engage any further in your pathetic attempt in taking this thread down a path we have seen before. Not sure what would cause someone to get so passively aggressive about an amplifier. If it wasnt so sad it would be kind of funny.

Josh

[kev313]

I think you are off base here. The moonies I heard would be a little to loud to hold comfortable conversation given the volume that they delivered. Maybe you like yelling at dinner. Having said that, at any level I would prefer the pCATS

josh

Josh, I don't recall mentioning anything about the SET amps playing loud over dinner? And to answer your question, no I do not like yelling at dinner. That would be rude. Perhaps you misinterpreted what I said, so please allow me clarify it for you. SET amps excel at low volume with jazz, we all know that and not many would disagree, certainly not I. So I'll respectfully disagree with you as I'd prefer a SET amp for low level jazz listening, and pCATS or another quality amp for all other listening levels and and genres including jazz.

That is ridiculous. I do not believe you. The tone of the post which I quoted, especially when taken in light of your other recent comments on SET, evidences, at the very least, a snide disdain for that type of amp. You are acting like an obnoxious teenager - Snidely making his or her point known while leaving enough room to distance yourself from that opinion or wash your hands of your statement so as to avoid real conflict or an actual discussion (necessary to maintain your position as your opinions, while perhaps not without merit, are wholly unsupported in your argument).

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Cmon man; at least grab em and say, You know what, SET sucks. You cant take a poop in front of everyone and say it wasnt you.

And, hey, no one is saying that you have to like anything. I used to have SET and now I use PP. My point was simply that it seems like a meaningless endeavor.

[jbsl]

I think you are off base here. The moonies I heard would be a little to loud to hold comfortable conversation given the volume that they delivered. Maybe you like yelling at dinner. Having said that, at any level I would prefer the pCATS

josh

Josh, I don't recall mentioning anything about the SET amps playing loud over dinner? And to answer your question, no I do not like yelling at dinner. That would be rude. Perhaps you misinterpreted what I said, so please allow me clarify it for you. SET amps excel at low volume with jazz, we all know that and not many would disagree, certainly not I. So I'll respectfully disagree with you as I'd prefer a SET amp for low level jazz listening, and pCATS or another quality amp for all other listening levels and and genres including jazz.

No you did not mention them playing loud over dinner but you implied(as I read it or understood it) that is all they are good for low level Jazz. I agree SET amps are great with Jazz at low volume, they are also great at medium volumes, and in my living room 15 x 15 x 8 they would play very loud and sounded great. I used a Ground Grid tube preamp with the Moondogs and bass sound great to me on my La Scalas. Living room size and speaker used will deterime if a SET amp will sound good or not.

I can understand and respect your opinion on SET amps but we will have to disagree on SET amps.

To me a great amp is a great amp PP or SET when used in the right conditions.

[Piranha]

I think you are off base here. The moonies I heard would be a little to loud to hold comfortable conversation given the volume that they delivered. Maybe you like yelling at dinner. Having said that, at any level I would prefer the pCATS

josh

Josh, I don't recall mentioning anything about the SET amps playing loud over dinner? And to answer your question, no I do not like yelling at dinner. That would be rude. Perhaps you misinterpreted what I said, so please allow me clarify it for you. SET amps excel at low volume with jazz, we all know that and not many would disagree, certainly not I. So I'll respectfully disagree with you as I'd prefer a SET amp for low level jazz listening, and pCATS or another quality amp for all other listening levels and and genres including jazz.

I will respectively suggest that you and everyone reading this know what your intentions are. I am not going to engage any further in your pathetic attempt in taking this thread down a path we have seen before. Not sure what would cause someone to get so passively aggressive about an amplifier. If it wasnt so sad it would be kind of funny.

Josh

Josh, I really don't understand why you're getting so agitated and personal.

[Piranha]

I think you are off base here. The moonies I heard would be a little to loud to hold comfortable conversation given the volume that they delivered. Maybe you like yelling at dinner. Having said that, at any level I would prefer the pCATS

josh

Josh, I don't recall mentioning anything about the SET amps playing loud over dinner? And to answer your question, no I do not like yelling at dinner. That would be rude. Perhaps you misinterpreted what I said, so please allow me clarify it for you. SET amps excel at low volume with jazz, we all know that and not many would disagree, certainly not I. So I'll respectfully disagree with you as I'd prefer a SET amp for low level jazz listening, and pCATS or another quality amp for all other listening levels and and genres including jazz.

No you did not mention them playing loud over dinner but you implied(as I read it or understood it) that is all they are good for low level Jazz. I agree SET amps are great with Jazz at low volume, they are also great at medium volumes, and in my living room 15 x 15 x 8 they would play very loud and sounded great. I used a Ground Grid tube preamp with the Moondogs and bass sound great to me on my La Scalas. Living room size and speaker used will deterime if a SET amp will sound good or not.

I can understand and respect your opinion on SET amps but we will have to disagree on SET amps.

To me a great amp is a great amp PP or SET when used in the right conditions.

Congratulations on your primary choice of amp(s) and speakers. We'll agree to disagree on both. I sold my La Scalas and kept my Cornwalls. Enjoy the music!

[joessportster]

hey gary if you would like to try a seotl amp (or a pair in mono) in your system let me know i can oblidge, or even if you would be interested in 2a3 pp we can do that as well.............

pm or e-mail me if you are interested

Joe

[jazman]

Mr. Piranha,

Please outline for us which SET amp you have owned that would qualify you to make any comment within this thread with any first hand knowledge. BTW,.......A response that you don't own one, never have owned one, but you spent the night at a Birds house last night does not qualify you. [N]

You don't seem to get it. A few members of this forum have now heard with their own ears, evidence that contradicts the propaganda you spew. Why are you, and others like you, so afraid of individuals discussing or pursuing options other than what you have chosen, that it drives you to interfer with their discussions? I truly pity small minds and intellect.

Klipsch out.

[maxg]

Here we go again.

Why do people have such a religious fervour over their choice of amp? If you like low power SET enough to use it and recommend it to others good luck to you. If you like PP / SS / Digital / high power / low power / moderate power / hybrid / separates / integrateds / surround sound then that is fine too - recommend them if you wish.

Bottom line is that to buy any amp on a recommendation here or anywhere else without auditioning it first is a huge risk to your wallet and your ears.

Last night - with all this fuss about low power amps I got inspired to change mine. I ripped out the 500 wpc Yamaha and the pre-amp and replaced it with my original setup (which turned out to be a lot more complex than I had originally intended). It took 3 hours to do as I decided to re-cable the whole thing and then got a ground loop that took time to find and finally a tube in the replacement pre-amp went microphonic and that needed replacing.

Re-cabling was an excellent idea - and having sorted out the ground loop the whole system plays quieter than it has for some time. A couple of hours listening told me that in many ways I prefer this setup to the big one (despite its being a whopping $8,000 cheaper).

Dynamics a plenty - much better balanced sound and a more musical experience - all from only 150 wpc (into 8 ohms) []

Amazing how far the power of a couple of light bulbs goes......at this rate I could see myself coming down further in power to maybe 60 wpc in the future []