Conductor Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 RE: BORP Ok, I thought maybe it was an onomatopoeia like 'blatt', which is the wet, flatulent sound of a trombone coming from Klipschorns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 18, 2001 Share Posted December 18, 2001 Chickey, what is your system? Perhaps this accounts for some differences. My 2 channel system is of such high resolution that these differences can be easitly ascertained. I am basically running my 2A3 amps from a dedicated circuit, more or less, while my Linn LP-12, Rega Planet, and Cary tube preamp (with a passive preamp at times) are from another outlet/circuit. I am using a power strip but it is completely devoid of any current limiting or spike protection. I am using DIYCable.com wire which is very revealing and open, while still sounding smooth, relaxed, and natural. These 2A3 monoblocks, while being only 3.5 watts per channel, have HUGE power transformers/output transformers, and choke filtered, multi-regulated Power Supplies. I can tell the difference between times of the day, current wise...a single change of interconnects, an input tube swap, moving my components on or off isolation devices/cones etc. My Cary has the balance removed and Kimber Silver wiring with a TKD Attenuator which is extremely transparent (it has a single holco resistor for each volume setting). With the addition of the very revealing Cornwall I, subtle changes are REALLY noticable. Perhaps these changes are not as noticable on different systems. I do not consider myself some golden-eared elitest audio guru, pointing at the mass of unwashed audio dremels, unable to hear *** from said hole in the ground. What I am saying is that when experience, systems, or conditions render subtle differences as imperceptable, then I find it problematic when conclusions are reached with the differences nullified. Still, one must allow for differences in opinion here, just like you said. And you are very right in that these differences are healthy and contribute to more in-depth understanding. I have had about five people firmly in the solid state amplifier path write me emails of gratitude after discovering the merits of tube amplification with their vintage Klipsch speakers. And because of some of the comments within, I have since re-hooked and auditioned some solid state gear to get another idea as to what the others are hearing. This kind of exchange is positive.... Alas, this is too much positive in one post for me. kh s y s t e m Linn LP-12/Linn Basic Plus/Sumiko Blue Point Rega Planet Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Creek OBH-12 Passive Preamp Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks DIYCable Wire - Various 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico Alternate Components: EICO HF-81 - btw, perfect Cornwall match ASUSA A-4 EL-34 UL ProAc Mini-Towers EICO HFT-90 Tube FM Tuner Sumo Aurora Tuner Nakamichi CR-7af>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-18-2001 at 02:56 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted December 20, 2001 Share Posted December 20, 2001 OK, so inspired by the talk of power amps and the relationships between them and AC filtering I took a little experimenting upon myself. First, I have the Belden 14Ga shielded power cables connecting everything to the AC filter box. So the first step is to bypass the filter box for the amps, by plugging them directly into a simple power strip. Huh. No big diff, as far as I could tell. Disappointing, and I had to go to bed and sleep on it. Then, with inspiration from AA, I took off the Belden power cords and put back the cheapie AC cords that came with the amps (and every other detachable AC cord in existence: 18Ga unshielded). Five seconds of Eije Oue with Stravinsky's Firebird and I'm convinced: power cords make a difference. In this case, the Beldens sucked the life out of the amps. I got slam back. LOTS of slam. Damn. Now I gotta think that they can make a positive difference if they can make a negative difference. NOT what I wanted to believe. Thanks Kelly for putting me back on track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted December 21, 2001 Share Posted December 21, 2001 Randy, Are you saying the stock 18ga power cords sounded better than the Beldens? Were they plugged into the power strip or in a wall outlet? Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted December 21, 2001 Share Posted December 21, 2001 yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. The unshielded 18 gauge power cords sounded better than the 14 gauge shielded power cords on my power amps. They were plugged into a power strip, and I don't know if the strip has a shielded cord or not. I don't have sufficient outlets to plug the amps directly into the wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 21, 2001 Share Posted December 21, 2001 Interesting post, Randy. What you REALLY need to do, and what I have also found that made a difference, is get the power amps (I know you have the Laurel Monos) plugged directly into their own dedicated outlet. And plug all your source components into a SEPARATE outlet. Dot NOT plug your amps into one power strip plugged into one plug in an outlet. Knowing the Welborne gear quite well, you will get an improvement by going into the wall, each amp with at least it's own plug if not a different socket. Having both amps plugged into that power strip is a no go. See if you can figure out a way to do this. If you have some extra ducats floating about, I would seriously consider wiring a dedicated circuit for your gear. And put in some extra outlets where needed. I have found some of the same things you have with shielded wire as well. I have never liked the sound of shielded interconnects. And sometimes big $$$ power cables foul the sound - sometimes they bring out things; lile power conditioners, it all depends. Half the time, I find myself prefering stock cords to the aftermarket brands although at times, the good cables can REALLY make a positive difference. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted December 21, 2001 Share Posted December 21, 2001 Yeah, I've been thinking about running a dedicated line for the stereo -- the only thing stopping me is that my wife will finally know that I'm crazy. And then there's the issue of how many separate power lines -- I can't put a separate line in for every outlet, so putting two or three outlets in a couple of boxes will end up with them all electrically connected similarly to the power strip. Only diff being the wall outlets will be connected with Romex and not whatever's inside the power strip. And then there's the concept of splitting the house power (which is two hot leads, 120v each) so that the refrig, dish washer, etc. are on one lead, and the stereo is on the other. That would require an electrician I think as the breaker box would have to be juggled a bit. Old M would roll her eyes over that, you bet! But it would be easy to run a single circuit over to the stereo, except it would have to run along the outside of the wall for the last leg from the ceiling to the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomer9911 Posted December 23, 2001 Share Posted December 23, 2001 To add to the debate, I will say this, I lived in a remote community in Canada's High Arctic(Inuvik, Northwest Territories) for 6 yrs(94-00). The power we had(under 5000 pop)was supplied by 3 "diesel" generators. One main, 2nd standby, 3rd reserve. We had power outages on a daily basis (especially when they switched generators)and most defintely weekly(lost count of the number of times, but 3X a day for periods of 10-40 minutes) was NOT uncommon. I had my Khorns in storage and was using a Klipsch KG1 sat system(ps sub)in 2 channel with Adcom. I had purchased the Adcom ACE515 Enhancer previous(Germany 92) and experimented with direct out of the wall and through a conditioner. There was a definite "hisssss" direct, but through the enhancer, nothing...sorry folks, but it was obvious. When there was a power spike my components shut down 2 seconds before the lights went out, it detected it that well in the line. I now use the Monster HTS5100 with my Marantz\Klipsch system and I have no complaints, but just "added" protection for my investment...IMO. This message has been edited by boomer9911 on 12-23-2001 at 12:48 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 23, 2001 Share Posted December 23, 2001 If you were hearing an actual "hissss" direct, then something was a lot more problematic than the typical clean power issue. That shouldnt be happening regardless. I guess my only comment here is for those that hear no difference between their power amps plugged into their own outlets vs plugged into a Monster or similar power conditioner, then power to you! Consider yourselves lucky. Also consider that you might be able to find some extra resolution somewhere in your system not to mention removal of a veil or two. As I said elsewhere, the more tuned your system and ears become, the more these type of differences are noticable. Still, if you are able to enjoy the music and it moves you with the perecption, whether false or not, that all dynamics and shading is there, then smile with this knowledge and enjoy it while you can. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S Posted December 23, 2001 Share Posted December 23, 2001 I would like to personally thank mobile for the permission to enjoy my system, "while I can" even though my ears must not be "tuned" and my system must be "veiled". Of course the fact that I think my system sounds great the way it is is probably just a "false perception" and I hope to someday reach sonic nirvana, as defined by mobile, of course. When are they going to put PWK's bulls**t button on the smilies? I would find it very useful. ------------------ L/C/R: Klipsch Heresy II Surround: Klipsch RS-3 Subwoofers: 2 HSU-VTF-2 Pre/Pro/Tuner: McIntosh MX-132 AMP: McIntosh MC-7205 DVD: McIntosh MVP-831 CD Transport: Pioneer PD-F908 100 Disc Changer Turntable: Denon DP-72L Cassette: Nakamichi BX-1 T.V. : Mitsubishi 55905 SAT/HDTV: RCA DTC-100 Surge Protector: Monster Power HTS-5000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted December 23, 2001 Share Posted December 23, 2001 Kevin, Just tell Kelly his system sounds pretty damn good from your house. "Until your ears are tuned". What the hell does that mean? Does one have to have tuned ears to percieve absolute sound? Music tastes vary, how does this relate with 'tuned' hearing? A live event is the best source IMO, how does tuned ears relate with this? If Kevin and you were at the same live event, and you thought the event sounded bad, is this beacause of your tuned ears? And if Kevin thought the event sounded bad, and you think it sounds great, would you tell Kevin he's full of s**t because his ears are not tuned? Where do you get your ears tuned BTW, is there a course? Music and Audio are too subjective of a topic to say those sort of things, IMHO. My ears are my ears, your ears are yours, if you have 'tuned' ears, so what? It's pointless, because they are not my ears. No offense Kelly, while I agree with you on the power filter/surge protection opinions in general, that last post to me is just a egomanic braggin' about his gear with no intention of giving any sort of realistic advices.(If realistic advice was even intended from the start.) Sorry 'bout that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curmudgeon Posted December 23, 2001 Share Posted December 23, 2001 Tsk, Tsk! Everyone play nice or you'll have to stand in the corner and listen to Abba on a Soundesign 8-track player (repeatedly). Also, the REAL secret to audio nirvana is a boombox. Just think: it totally eliminates the need for separate components, expensive interconnects, expensive speaker cables, power conditioners, and even the need for 120v power itself. However, one must be very careful in battery choice to get the proper "slam" and "imaging": Eveready gives a nice warm sound while Duracells have better RF shielding (Copper-top). Stay away from Japanese batteries - they sound so "transistory" and bright. Improbable as it is, all other explanations are more improbable still. "THE ADVENTURE OF SILVER BLAZE" - Arthur Conan Doyle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 23, 2001 Share Posted December 23, 2001 I knew that post would draw the Klipsch forum up in arms. Alas, that is not too hard to do. Tread the line a bit and someone will come a runnin'. Yes, just tell me my system sounds good...that is what I want. I agree, all that really matters ultimately is that you are happy with your music...and loving it. On the other hand, when opinions and subjective ideas come into play, we have some serious room for banter. Obviously, that post ruffled a few feathers..and I can see why...perhaps, I owe all an apology. I DO apologize. Well, I have moved about 12 times since the mid 70s. I have dragged sytems and a recording studio down the highway so many times, it makes my head spin. I worked in a place where EVERYTHING had to be on power protection with backup (Radio Station) to my home recording studio. I understand the benefit of power protection as well as the positive results that can be had by the filtering terrible power. But in all these 25 years of having various degrees of high resolution systems in many abodes on and off power filtration, I have never ONCE...and I mean NOT ONCE, heard a quality power amp not affected adversely from being inserted in a power filtration device. Yes, many times it is very slight...and almost not worth the risk if you live in a horror power zone, but the affects WERE there. Now, with something like the PS Audio P1200 or P600 where it is a virtual power station at your finger tips, things might be different. But with the average power conditioner we we are discussion here such as the Monster units, Panamax, and Adcom etc, then the results have almost always been of an adverse nature. I frankly went out of my way saying if you dont notice the difference, than POWER to you. I'll say this, the first person on here that shows me a system where his or her everyday power filtration device from Audio Power, Adcom, Panamax, Chang, Monster, etc does NOT adversely affect the presentation of the power amps, then I'll gladly donate my lovely chrome ASUSA A-4 EL-34 tube amp to your collection! Oh, I love high stakes! It gets the blood coursing through thy veins.... Let the games begin! Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to ALL!! kh ps- What's live music???? This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-23-2001 at 05:15 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted December 23, 2001 Share Posted December 23, 2001 Okay Kelly, How could someone 'SHOW' you how their amplication device can benefit from a filtration device or surge protection, on a public forum, without actually listening to the system with or without the devices in a A/B type listening session? HUH? Maybe I should recant on the Live music thing, due to the fact the most rock concerts have giant PA systems with many amps, mixers, condtioners, etc...etc...etc...... It does give your last question merit. Allright, say you and a buddy are at a classical/Jazz concert or whatever with no sort of amplification whatsoever. What sort of thing does 'tuned ears' listen for here? Acoustics? It still boils down to subjectivity, if you and the buddy disagreed on how the presentation sounded. RIGHT? Hell, I just have all my stuff plugged to the wall, amps in one receptacle and the rest in another, though they are the same circuit. I don't hear anything, unless you two inches from the speaker. (Chorus II's are not that great of nearfeilds anyway.) My problem is popping through the system, from the fridge, dryer, washer switching. I want to address these at the sources with maybe a s**tload of ferrite washers on the cords of the appliances themselves, its worth a try. It's cool Mobile, I have to respect a background like that of yours. But you were getting a little big-headed there, no? Now gimme that amp! I'll gladly pay for shipping! THANX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S Posted December 23, 2001 Share Posted December 23, 2001 Mobile, please send me the amp. Your criteria is that since you say you hear certain things, that makes it so. Well I say I do not, and since IMHO there is no reason that my word should not be considered as good as yours, and since you consider your word proof enough for us, you must, by default, accept my word as proof enough for you, I'll look forward to receiving the amp. Just e-mail me for my address. In fact, I'll supply a UPS account number so you do not have to pay the shipping. Or, if you prefer, you can buy the amp back from me before shipping it, and just send me a check for the retail value. Your choice. Now lets see if you are a man of your word. ------------------ L/C/R: Klipsch Heresy II Surround: Klipsch RS-3 Subwoofers: 2 HSU-VTF-2 Pre/Pro/Tuner: McIntosh MX-132 AMP: McIntosh MC-7205 DVD: McIntosh MVP-831 CD Transport: Pioneer PD-F908 100 Disc Changer Turntable: Denon DP-72L Cassette: Nakamichi BX-1 T.V. : Mitsubishi 55905 SAT/HDTV: RCA DTC-100 Surge Protector: Monster Power HTS-5000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted December 23, 2001 Share Posted December 23, 2001 It's bulls**t! He 'ain't gonna give that amp to nobody! Don't hurt to try, LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 23, 2001 Share Posted December 23, 2001 Kevin... Nice Logic. IS that supposed to be a 250GTO or a Dino? kh ps- Arent you gettin' near runnin' out of outlets with that down-to-business Monster HTS-5000? I guess you have about 10-12 or so...That poor BX-1 NAK is going to send it over the edge! By the way, as someone that hears no difference in speaker wire or interconnects, I suspect a subtle shift in the dynamics or air around the performers from your McIntosh 5 Channel 200wpc power house plugged into a 4 stage filter would seem like spying the proverbial needle in the barrel of Whey.... But still, I'm up for the challenge. Heh, MD isnt even all that far away! pps: Hey Stehr, I said I would donate the amp. I just need to hear the system. Hell, I'll even bring a six pack of fine ale! ppps: That amp sure looks nice, doesnt it? Damn beast has been in the closet for 14 months...It wants to see the light of day! This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-23-2001 at 09:38 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted December 23, 2001 Share Posted December 23, 2001 Aw man, I pretty much agree with you on the this subject. main amps go in the wall, everything else on filter/surge, or nothing. Save a trip and just send the amp (my stereo isn't worth the trip), I can use it on the mid and high horns on my Chorus II's. Donate to the Audio challenged, I'll send ya beer money. MERRY CHRISTMAS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 24, 2001 Share Posted December 24, 2001 The real question is.... Where the hell is eglinski, the originator of this meandering thread??? The poor bastard has been MIA since day one! kh - Stehr, I love Washington State.... I'll come just for the beauty of it! s y s t e m Linn LP-12/Linn Basic Plus/Sumiko Blue Point Rega Planet Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 12-24-2001 at 05:43 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin S Posted December 24, 2001 Share Posted December 24, 2001 Mobile, A Dino. It is apparent that you are not going to keep your word about "donating" the amp to my system. What seems to be the problem? I do not believe that your post says anything about you needing to hear the system. You said you needed to be "shown" one. I have previously posted photos of mine, feel free to take a look.. Using your other criteria, which is taking our word for what we say we hear, I have stated, prior to your challenge, in this thread, that the HTS was sonically neutral in my system. What part of your challenge did I not meet? I hope the rest of the posters to this board keep your back tracking on this in mind when reading yor posts. It should give them some idea as to how much credence to place in the things you write about what you "hear"....None. I would be happy, BTW, to put my untuned, falsely perceiving, ears up against yours in a controlled, levels matched, blind listening test. Using my system, I am certain that you will not be able to discern any statistically relevant difference with the HTS 5000 in or out of the system. And neither will I. I am sure you have the contacts to make this happen, lets set a date. Oh, and bring the amp when you come. ------------------ L/C/R: Klipsch Heresy II Surround: Klipsch RS-3 Subwoofers: 2 HSU-VTF-2 Pre/Pro/Tuner: McIntosh MX-132 AMP: McIntosh MC-7205 DVD: McIntosh MVP-831 CD Transport: Pioneer PD-F908 100 Disc Changer Turntable: Denon DP-72L Cassette: Nakamichi BX-1 T.V. : Mitsubishi 55905 SAT/HDTV: RCA DTC-100 Surge Protector: Monster Power HTS-5000 This message has been edited by Kevin S on 12-24-2001 at 08:00 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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