Klipschorn as a two-way

[DrWho]

Mike, no one is denying the response is a little

rough, it's been talked about plenty over the years. However, if we

prioritized FR, no one here would be listening to any of the Heritage

speakers (or horns in general).

"Power output with low distortion are the two primary criteria. You

can put one first and the other second, either way, since after all the

two are directly related mathematically. Third in importance is the

polar pattern, whether the speaker radiates into the angle you want to

cover. And last, probably the least important, is the effective

frequency response." -- PWK

I see what you're saying, but I kinda disagree too [] I think the

reason FR can be lower on the list is because our rooms have a larger

impact. Why bother aiming for +-1dB when the room is going to introduce

+15, -60dB? I also think some of the latest research in the time domain

goes to show the unimportance of the frequency response as well...at

least in terms of something you'd measure with an RTA. That's probably

where PWK is coming from? A lot of his writings are rather old and I

would love to hear about his perspectives on some of the latest

measurement practices.

However, I think once you start looking at the Haas window in a

properly treated room, the frequency response suddenly becomes

important...but only within that window. But the importance of the

window is that it is what we percieve as the direct sound. Anything

happening outside of that window is perceived as part of the

"reverberation" of the room. So if you can manage to avoid

significant reflections within that first 30-50ms, then the percieved

direct sound of the system is going to match that of the measured

anechoic response. In other words, that +-1dB on the speaker is now

important - despite what an RTA might show you at your listening

position. Basically picture all of the

benefits of near-field mini-monitor listening in the middle of the

room, combined with all the other positive attributes of far-field

large-speaker listening. In a crazy world I suppose you would be able

to find a situation where the room induced frequency response

aberrations within the Haas window are going to flatten out the natural

behavior of the khorn - but I'd hate to be the engineer to decide what

rooms and what furnishings and all that are required to achieve this.

In other words, it's a case of classic engineering where you choose the

problems that you are able to deal with.

Anyways, that's just my current take on the issue of frequency

response. But you make a great point....I certainly like my Klipsch a

lot more than many of the other speaker topologies out there - and I

contribute a lot of it to the lower distortion as PWK describes. So I

guess the real question is "when does the frequency response trump

distortion"? That sounds like something that can only be answered with

experience, so perhaps I should just trust PWK's and Roy's judgement.

But at the same time that is hard to swallow because the frequency

response is the number one thing I dislike about much of the heritage

too (if I had to point to anything I disliked).

"I probably wouldn't go with a 2-way khorn though. It's hard as

heck to cross from the beaming comb-filtered highs of the khorn bass

bin to the uncontrolled dispersion of a "small" top end. The 402 isn't

even large enough to control the directivity down into the region of

the bass bin."

Roy might disagree with you. I think we need to defer to him on this issue.

I thought that was kinda along the lines of what Roy was talking

about when mentioning that part about PWK saying to just put it on the

new speaker? And when talking about the discontinuity problems? Maybe I

misread that.

"...The discontinuity issues aren't going to be much different than any of the other aftermarket mods that many enjoy."

Exactly, but the problems should be reduced (comparatively speaking) with the solution we're talking about.

"...For what it's worth, I don't think anyone here could

accurately tell the difference between 400Hz and 500Hz by just

listening to music. In other words, a 500Hz crossover is going to be

sonically very similar to a 400Hz crossover and I don't see anyone

complaining about going with 400Hz."

You couldn't identify which is which, but you could tell one was

different than the other.

In that range, the difference between 400Hz and 500Hz is going to be

under 2 notes on the scale (less than 1/4 octave). I was just

mentioning that in terms of the frequency spread of typical

instruments, that the difference between either crossover point isn't

huge. It's nowhere near the difference between 400Hz and 2kHz! [] I

would also argue that most of the perceived difference between the two

is going to reside in differences in distortion, phase, and polar

response. Heck, sit around with an active for a bit and slide between

the two at will - the difference is minimal (as long as you're within

the passband of each driver).

As for the 500Hz crossover point, realize

that this is the original crossover point for the Klipschorn, and that

PK in fact ran his set up with no low pass filter -- he ran the bass

sections full out, connected directly to the amp. I ran mine that way

for almost a year, and if there's a distortion problem in that

350-500Hz area, I sure couldn't hear it. I also believe Artto runs his

set up that way, and I don't remember you exactly being repulsed by

what you heard.

Interesting, I never knew PWK or Art were doing things like that []

"Basically, the awesome new horns are pretty much K401's, but with the ability to replace (and improve upon) the tweeter."

Uh, the old horns are exponential types and collapse the vertical.

The new ones are tractrix constant directivity types. I don't think the

horn type has as much to do with whether or not you can go two-way as

it does the actual bandwidth of the driver. You can put on the squeeze

with an exponential and get some lift in response, but it's no

substitute for a wide bandwidth driver.

Yikes, that's what I get for writing while falling asleep. I can

totally see how you took it that way, but I was intending to describe

the notion that with a 500Hz crossover point, that you're pretty much

doing the same thing sonically as a 400Hz crossover point with a K401.

In other words, the K510 and K402 can really be thought of as

"squawkers" that happen to have insane high frequency extension (so

much so they can be used as tweeters). They also happen to way

outperform many tweeters too, but that's a side issue. I was just

trying to point out that the LF/MF crossover point with the 402 isn't

much different than that of the 401. In other words, the only real

difference between 2-way and 3-way in this scenario is going to be the

absence of a crossover to the tweeter. I dunno how to say it in one

sentence, but I think y'all get the point? It's not like you're

crossing over to the high frequency section at 2kHz.

[Duke Spinner]

Hmmnnnn ...

at what freq's do those horn's start to beam ...

'm familiar w/ the behavior ofmy 2360's ...

but not the K model orns

[theplummer]

Mike, no one is denying the response is a little

rough, it's been talked about plenty over the years. However, if we

prioritized FR, no one here would be listening to any of the Heritage

speakers (or horns in general).

"Power output with low distortion are the two primary criteria. You

can put one first and the other second, either way, since after all the

two are directly related mathematically. Third in importance is the

polar pattern, whether the speaker radiates into the angle you want to

cover. And last, probably the least important, is the effective

frequency response." -- PWK

I see what you're saying, but I kinda disagree too [] I think the

reason FR can be lower on the list is because our rooms have a larger

impact. Why bother aiming for +-1dB when the room is going to introduce

+15, -60dB? I also think some of the latest research in the time domain

goes to show the unimportance of the frequency response as well...at

least in terms of something you'd measure with an RTA. That's probably

where PWK is coming from? A lot of his writings are rather old and I

would love to hear about his perspectives on some of the latest

measurement practices.

However, I think once you start looking at the Haas window in a

properly treated room, the frequency response suddenly becomes

important...but only within that window. But the importance of the

window is that it is what we percieve as the direct sound. Anything

happening outside of that window is perceived as part of the

"reverberation" of the room. So if you can manage to avoid

significant reflections within that first 30-50ms, then the percieved

direct sound of the system is going to match that of the measured

anechoic response. In other words, that +-1dB on the speaker is now

important - despite what an RTA might show you at your listening

position. Basically picture all of the

benefits of near-field mini-monitor listening in the middle of the

room, combined with all the other positive attributes of far-field

large-speaker listening. In a crazy world I suppose you would be able

to find a situation where the room induced frequency response

aberrations within the Haas window are going to flatten out the natural

behavior of the khorn - but I'd hate to be the engineer to decide what

rooms and what furnishings and all that are required to achieve this.

In other words, it's a case of classic engineering where you choose the

problems that you are able to deal with.

Anyways, that's just my current take on the issue of frequency

response. But you make a great point....I certainly like my Klipsch a

lot more than many of the other speaker topologies out there - and I

contribute a lot of it to the lower distortion as PWK describes. So I

guess the real question is "when does the frequency response trump

distortion"? That sounds like something that can only be answered with

experience, so perhaps I should just trust PWK's and Roy's judgement.

But at the same time that is hard to swallow because the frequency

response is the number one thing I dislike about much of the heritage

too (if I had to point to anything I disliked).

"I probably wouldn't go with a 2-way khorn though. It's hard as

heck to cross from the beaming comb-filtered highs of the khorn bass

bin to the uncontrolled dispersion of a "small" top end. The 402 isn't

even large enough to control the directivity down into the region of

the bass bin."

Roy might disagree with you. I think we need to defer to him on this issue.

I thought that was kinda along the lines of what Roy was talking

about when mentioning that part about PWK saying to just put it on the

new speaker? And when talking about the discontinuity problems? Maybe I

misread that.

"...The discontinuity issues aren't going to be much different than any of the other aftermarket mods that many enjoy."

Exactly, but the problems should be reduced (comparatively speaking) with the solution we're talking about.

"...For what it's worth, I don't think anyone here could

accurately tell the difference between 400Hz and 500Hz by just

listening to music. In other words, a 500Hz crossover is going to be

sonically very similar to a 400Hz crossover and I don't see anyone

complaining about going with 400Hz."

You couldn't identify which is which, but you could tell one was

different than the other.

In that range, the difference between 400Hz and 500Hz is going to be

under 2 notes on the scale (less than 1/4 octave). I was just

mentioning that in terms of the frequency spread of typical

instruments, that the difference between either crossover point isn't

huge. It's nowhere near the difference between 400Hz and 2kHz! [] I

would also argue that most of the perceived difference between the two

is going to reside in differences in distortion, phase, and polar

response. Heck, sit around with an active for a bit and slide between

the two at will - the difference is minimal (as long as you're within

the passband of each driver).

As for the 500Hz crossover point, realize

that this is the original crossover point for the Klipschorn, and that

PK in fact ran his set up with no low pass filter -- he ran the bass

sections full out, connected directly to the amp. I ran mine that way

for almost a year, and if there's a distortion problem in that

350-500Hz area, I sure couldn't hear it. I also believe Artto runs his

set up that way, and I don't remember you exactly being repulsed by

what you heard.

Interesting, I never knew PWK or Art were doing things like that []

"Basically, the awesome new horns are pretty much K401's, but with the ability to replace (and improve upon) the tweeter."

Uh, the old horns are exponential types and collapse the vertical.

The new ones are tractrix constant directivity types. I don't think the

horn type has as much to do with whether or not you can go two-way as

it does the actual bandwidth of the driver. You can put on the squeeze

with an exponential and get some lift in response, but it's no

substitute for a wide bandwidth driver.

Yikes, that's what I get for writing while falling asleep. I can

totally see how you took it that way, but I was intending to describe

the notion that with a 500Hz crossover point, that you're pretty much

doing the same thing sonically as a 400Hz crossover point with a K401.

In other words, the K510 and K402 can really be thought of as

"squawkers" that happen to have insane high frequency extension (so

much so they can be used as tweeters). They also happen to way

outperform many tweeters too, but that's a side issue. I was just

trying to point out that the LF/MF crossover point with the 402 isn't

much different than that of the 401. In other words, the only real

difference between 2-way and 3-way in this scenario is going to be the

absence of a crossover to the tweeter. I dunno how to say it in one

sentence, but I think y'all get the point? It's not like you're

crossing over to the high frequency section at 2kHz.

Hey Guys, this is all very interesting, and I think I'm learning a lot.

But, even if a speaker was developed to produce a perfectly flat frequency response, room accoustics would reek havoc on the signal, right?

My way of thinking is that the ideal situation would be to reproduce the sound exactly as the sound director heard it in his final cut, in his sound room. I'm going to assume that the sound mixing rooms probably don't have their system checked with a RTA prior to the mixing, or am I wrong about that. That being said, it's going to be impossible to reproduce the same accoustics in your listening room as the room where it was originally mixed. Especially since there are numerous mixing rooms and many different theorys on what an ideal accoustic sound is.

I personally prefer a slightly dead room, with the mid reduced slightly, especially with a large sqwaker like the Khorn and Lascalla have.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[IndyKlipschFan]

I hope a lot of you that are coming to the pilgrimage next week, give a good listen to the 60 anniversary K horns. They have a Ak-5 network.. Very close to the AK-4 you can purchase from Klipsch. (Which also has 2 new drivers for the mids and new tweeters too.) They are smoother than before, IMO, and are just fantastic.

I think were all curious about a 2 way K horn I just highly doubt Klipsch would officially authorize one. It does not mean through a lot of testing we find a solution to making a 2 way that people may enjoy. Much like we found a PA speaker for big theater chains.. and converted it into our own home use as a Jubilee.

[jwc]

"Which also has 2 new drivers for the mids and new tweeters too."

Not sure I follow you. Can you explain?

jc

[Guest " "]

"(Which also has 2 new drivers for the mids and new tweeters too.) "

You mean the k-55-X and the k-77-f?

[DrWho]

But, even if a speaker was developed to

produce a perfectly flat frequency response, room accoustics would reek

havoc on the signal, right?

Yep

My way of thinking is that the ideal situation would be to

reproduce the sound exactly as the sound director heard it in his final

cut, in his sound room. I'm going to assume that the sound mixing rooms

probably don't have their system checked with a RTA prior to the

mixing, or am I wrong about that. That being said, it's going to be

impossible to reproduce the same accoustics in your listening room as

the room where it was originally mixed. Especially since there are

numerous mixing rooms and many different theorys on what an ideal

accoustic sound is.

They don't use an RTA, but they are going to use tools like TEF that

measure in the time domain. Ever notice how the walls in almost any

studio are splayed, non-parallel, flush mounted speakers, and all that

shnazz? What they

are doing is preventing any early reflections from happening. As long

as there are no early reflections, our brains are able to filter out

the difference between the direct sound and the reverb of the room.

Good sound engineering practices involve only mixing the direct sound.

So as long as we design our listening rooms such that the direct sound

is preserved, then it really doesn't matter what the reverberant field

does as long as it is not distracting (meaning that we are able to

ignore it). Distractions are different for different people, but this

model allows us to have different rooms all achieving what might be

considered perceptually high-fidelity.

I personally prefer a slightly dead room, with the mid reduced

slightly, especially with a large sqwaker like the Khorn and Lascalla

have.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It's never wrong to have a preference. I might argue that your

preference might be slightly related to the bite that the K400 has.

With a less agressive speaker, you will probably be able to get away

with a more live room. But I too prefer things on the dead side -

mostly because I find them less distracting. But too dead and the music feels wierd.

[IB Slammin]

"Which also has 2 new drivers for the mids and new tweeters too."

Not sure I follow you. Can you explain?

jc

Now James, be nice.[]

tc

[IB Slammin]

I hope a lot of you that are coming to the pilgrimage next week, give a good listen to the 60 anniversary K horns. They have a Ak-5 network.. Very close to the AK-4 you can purchase from Klipsch. (Which also has 2 new drivers for the mids and new tweeters too.) They are smoother than before, IMO, and are just fantastic. I think were all curious about a 2 way K horn I just highly doubt Klipsch would officially authorize one. It does not mean through a lot of testing we find a solution to making a 2 way that people may enjoy. Much like we found a PA speaker for big theater chains.. and converted it into our own home use as a Jubilee.

Fan,

Let me try to understand.

The 60th anniversary K-horns are now different than the ones that we listened to on the 60th anniversary Hope trip a year ago? Two new mid drivers available? No new mid horn, just two new drivers? What drivers would those be? Couldn't be 2" drivers, cause we haven't changed the horn as yet. Please discribe exactly what the new tweeter is about that we designed and are now installed in that 60th annv Khorn.

...................... It does not mean through a lot of testing we find a solution to making a 2 way that people may enjoy. Much like we found a PA speaker for big theater chains.. and converted it into our own home use as a Jubilee

Don't believe that an exponential mid horn has been designed and installed in a BIG floor standing Klipsch cab for some time. So you say that there is a Traxtrix horn available from the factory, for the 60th Khorn? Please provide the mod number. I might want to buy a few.

The Jubilee. We converted it from cinema to home? The pix of PWK standing next to the first Jub with the wood horn.......does that look like a commercial design to you, do you really think that the design was intended to be hidden behind a screen? A great application of product, I must agree.

One last question:

Who the fook is WE? As I take it from you, you had some hand in the design prosess.

tc

[jwc]

DDAAAMMNN

Terry

There was 1 hour and 20 minutes between those last two posts. I KNOW you slurped a few down in between.

jc

[IB Slammin]

DDAAAMMNN

Terry

There was 1 hour and 20 minutes between those last two posts. I KNOW you slurped a few down in between.

jc

JC,

You must be thinking of someone else. LMAO

When typing with one finger, it just takes that long.[]

Regards

tc

[bodcaw boy]

I hope a lot of you that are coming to the pilgrimage next week, give a good listen to the 60 anniversary K horns. They have a Ak-5 network.. Very close to the AK-4 you can purchase from Klipsch. (Which also has 2 new drivers for the mids and new tweeters too.) They are smoother than before, IMO, and are just fantastic. I think were all curious about a 2 way K horn I just highly doubt Klipsch would officially authorize one. It does not mean through a lot of testing we find a solution to making a 2 way that people may enjoy. Much like we found a PA speaker for big theater chains.. and converted it into our own home use as a Jubilee.

Fan,

Let me try to understand.

The 60th anniversary K-horns are now different than the ones that we listened to on the 60th anniversary Hope trip a year ago? Two new mid drivers available? No new mid horn, just two new drivers? What drivers would those be? Couldn't be 2" drivers, cause we haven't changed the horn as yet. Please discribe exactly what the new tweeter is about that we designed and are now installed in that 60th annv Khorn.

...................... It does not mean through a lot of testing we find a solution to making a 2 way that people may enjoy. Much like we found a PA speaker for big theater chains.. and converted it into our own home use as a Jubilee

Don't believe that an exponential mid horn has been designed and installed in a BIG floor standing Klipsch cab for some time. So you say that there is a Traxtrix horn available from the factory, for the 60th Khorn? Please provide the mod number. I might want to buy a few.

nope......can't buy parts......

The Jubilee. We converted it from cinema to home? The pix of PWK standing next to the first Jub with the wood horn.......does that look like a commercial design to you, do you really think that the design was intended to be hidden behind a screen? A great application of product, I must agree.

One last question:

Who the fook is WE? As I take it from you, you had some hand in the design prosess.

now who should be nice?

tc

colossians 1:23

roy

[Deang]

"The 60th anniversary K-horns are now different than the ones that we listened to on the 60th anniversary Hope trip a year ago? Two new mid drivers available? No new mid horn, just two new drivers? What drivers would those be?"

Like Fritz surmized, Roger is just talking about the K-55-X and K-77-F. Though they are "new" drivers, they aren't much different than what has always been used.

[Deang]

"I was just trying to point out that the LF/MF crossover point with the 402 isn't much different than that of the 401. In other words, the only real difference between 2-way and 3-way in this scenario is going to be the absence of a crossover to the tweeter. I dunno how to say it in one sentence, but I think y'all get the point? It's not like you're crossing over to the high frequency section at 2kHz."

I'm following Mike, that's pretty much what I was saying earlier in thread. A funny thing here: If I say it's a midrange driver that goes up to 17kHz - 18kHz, there's all kinds of skepticism. If I say it's a tweeter that goes down to 500Hz, everyone is O.K. with that.

"I thought that was kinda along the lines of what Roy was talking about when mentioning that part about PWK saying to just put it on the new speaker? And when talking about the discontinuity problems? Maybe I misread that."

Yeah, I think you misunderstood him.

"The Jubilee. We converted it from cinema to home? The pix of PWK standing next to the first Jub with the wood horn.......does that look like a commercial design to you, do you really think that the design was intended to be hidden behind a screen?"

Right, it's the other way around. No real consumer market, so to save it they found a place on the commercial side, where it was customized for that application. What some of us are using is quite a bit different than the commercial version. Of course, with that big horn on top it makes you wonder.

[DrWho]

I'm following Mike, that's pretty much what I was saying earlier in thread. A funny thing here: If I say it's a midrange driver that goes up to 17kHz - 18kHz, there's all kinds of skepticism. If I say it's a tweeter that goes down to 500Hz, everyone is O.K. with that.

Maybe we should just combine both in the same sentence all the time? It's a squawker that gets up to 18kHz and a tweeter that digs down to 500Hz. I wonder if the 402 can work as a sub too with all the boundary gain achieved by wearing the 402 like a pair of headphones? Would that make it a sub that gets up to 18kHz, or a tweeter that digs to 20Hz? Should I eat the spider walking across the floor?

[jwc]

"The 60th anniversary K-horns are now different than the ones that we listened to on the 60th anniversary Hope trip a year ago? Two new mid drivers available? No new mid horn, just two new drivers? What drivers would those be?"

Like Fritz surmized, Roger is just talking about the K-55-X and K-77-F. Though they are "new" drivers, they aren't much different than what has always been used.

Ah. Ok. I knew that. For a moment I thought I was unaware of a big change.

jc

[Guest " "]

'"Don't believe that an exponential mid horn has been designed and installed in a BIG floor standing Klipsch cab for some time. So you say that there is a Traxtrix horn available from the factory, for the 60th Khorn? Please provide the mod number. I might want to buy a few.

nope......can't buy parts......""

Is this a clue....he did not say it does not exists....if it has a klipsch part number....someone will put it on ebay (probally a Klipsch employee).

[IB Slammin]

"I was just trying to point out that the LF/MF crossover point with the 402 isn't much different than that of the 401. In other words, the only real difference between 2-way and 3-way in this scenario is going to be the absence of a crossover to the tweeter. I dunno how to say it in one sentence, but I think y'all get the point? It's not like you're crossing over to the high frequency section at 2kHz."

I'm following Mike, that's pretty much what I was saying earlier in thread. A funny thing here: If I say it's a midrange driver that goes up to 17kHz - 18kHz, there's all kinds of skepticism. If I say it's a tweeter that goes down to 500Hz, everyone is O.K. with that.

"I thought that was kinda along the lines of what Roy was talking about when mentioning that part about PWK saying to just put it on the new speaker? And when talking about the discontinuity problems? Maybe I misread that."

Yeah, I think you misunderstood him.

"The Jubilee. We converted it from cinema to home? The pix of PWK standing next to the first Jub with the wood horn.......does that look like a commercial design to you, do you really think that the design was intended to be hidden behind a screen?"

Right, it's the other way around. No real consumer market, so to save it they found a place on the commercial side, where it was customized for that application. What some of us are using is quite a bit different than the commercial version. Of course, with that big horn on top it makes you wonder.

Deano,

................."What some of us are using is quite a bit different than the commercial version"................

Oh? Would you please expound on those differences? Is it a box thing, different cab vol, different exit pattern, different horn length, what? Always assumed that a Jub LF horn, was a Jub LF horn.

I understand that there was/is a shipping delay with a home-use Jub. Granted, it is not exactly an "off the shelf" sale for the home owner, but again, I assumed that any delay was due to "factory run" schedules. Are you saying that (the bins) orders for the Jubilee (for the individual) are somewhat different than the cinema version?

Warm regards to Deb and the fam,

tc

[pauln]

"Maybe we should just combine both in the same sentence all the time?
It's a squawker that gets up to 18kHz and a tweeter that digs down to
500Hz." Dr Who

How about combining them into a new word to describe the top part of a two way - the "squeaker"...?? Just trying to help...[^o)]

[DrWho]

Squeaker works for me [Y] lol