Klipschorn as a two-way

[theplummer]

I'm probably not knoweldgable enough about the how or what it is that makes me drool over the the Khorn, but I was wondering why there hasn't been an effort to update the mighty khorn with a tracktrix style horn for the mid and tweeter. Wouldn't the wider dispersion of the tracktrix alleviate some of the issues of widening the sweet spot, or potentially eliminate the toeing in of the speakers ruining the bass because of the poor seal to the back walls?

Mark Kaufman who is responsible for the revamped Heritage line said they did not feel comfortable moving that far away from the original Klipschorn design as it is know. I have heard Roy mention that PWK left instructions regarding the KHorns future. I could be wrong but I swear I read that on a post. PWKs ultimate answer was the Klipschorn Jubilee. The revamped cornwall and heresey have a tractrix tweeter though. I have been kicking the two way design around lately for my Belles. The Belle bas bin if I remember right goes up to 500hz and would be easier to use with the k510.

I understand PWK still has a hand in the decisions, but there's an easy fix there also. Since the Bass Bin separates from both the Khorn and Belle, why not offer the Traditional sqwaker and call it "Classic", and create a new top section and give it a new moniker E.G. "Klipschorn SS". This would give customers additional choices.

If PWK was still with us the Jubilee would be available but he passed away in 2002. I think we are lucky the heritage line is still available and they won't offer a split heritage line as they are trying to keep as close to original as possible.

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_paul_klipsch/

Seti,<

Seti, I'm sorry, I guess I should have clarified my statement. I know PWK has since passed, but I also realize that he made it known how he wanted his legacy (company) to continue. I feel that Fred has honored Paul's wishes and hope this continues, but, evolution must continue even in this (dead end) offshoot of their lineup. I would prefer to see new life injected into the Heritage line, as the current home design has gone "Retro". Its time for Klipsch to dive into that phenomonon.

Sorry I misunderstood. I see your point of view and it is an interesting idea. The more attention to the Heritage line the better. I think the new KHorn looks as good as it ever has just stunning. The revamping of the heritage line was just completed not long ago and they re-introduced the Cornwall. What else would like to see them do? I have thought a reeducation of the sellers and public would be a good idea. It would be cool to be able to sign up for the Dope From Hope again : )

P>This very topic came up about 6 months ago, but the thread got deleted due to others getting belligerant.

I'll re-iterate my thoughts from that thread. First, we all know that if the product is unknown to the public, it will not sell. Second, we all know that if the product is not where people can experience it, it will not sell. Third, if the dealers are doing what I suspect, purposely not having your products so they can sell a more expensive product, because if the Klipsch product was on site, a customer might just ask to hear it, and prove what we all know. Equal or better listening experience without the added cost.

Now how do we fix these three problems. I propose that first, Klipsch needs to manufacture "Dealer" speakers. These are not sellable, they do not have serial numbers and are the property of Klipsch. These units will have every combination of wood type on each speaker, kind of like an easter egg. These speakers would be maintained by dealer reps. When upgrades go online, the Rep goes to the Dealer and installs the new network or driver into the Dealer Demo unit. Dealer reps are also responsible for presenting educational material to the sales person, and written tests administered about your products.

I believe that it this is implimented, your Heritage sales would increase dramatically.

I also believe that an effort to push your in-wall products to Residential home General Contractors would also increase name recognition. Make it possible for General contractors to purchase direct your products so they can install Home theater's in high end living rooms and master bedrooms.

[J.4knee]

To answer your original question Dean .... YES....I am very interested.........actually I wanna do that very thing with my LS.

[Guest " "]

J.4knee

"To answer your original question Dean .... YES....I am very interested.........actually I wann do that very thing with my LS. "

This would work very well with a LaScala

[IB Slammin]

Dean,

I've wondered about it. Seemed like the possibility was limited by the top end of the Khorn bass bin and capability of the HF driver to pick up at that threshold.

What do you think is the usable range of the Khorn bass bin? What about the driver? How low can it cross?

Anyway, the idea of a two way based on the Khorn is most interesting. I think it could be fun to set up a CW with your HF, since it can be crossed at 800 or so.

.................."I think it could be fun to set up a CW with your HF"..................

Pop, I been thinking about one. Ya know, the 510/K-69 would fit in the box. However, the 510/K-69 is a bit above my pay-grade at this time.

tc

[Bill W.]

Hey Dean,

I'm a little late to this party but here's my two cents worth - I would upgrade each of my sets of Klipschorns with a Klipsch-engineered, tested and measured top end for a two-way system. One of the things that attracted me to Klipsch many years ago was the low - obsolescence product design philosophy and (particularly for the Klipschorn) a stated commitment to improvements in detail allowing the owner to keep them up-to-date for a lifetime. I fully understand and appreciate that there is a legacy in the stability of the design but one could argue just as strongly that there is also a legacy in the countless improvements that have been introduced over many decades for this speaker.

Let me add some perspective: I first heard Klipschorns at my bosses' house when I was 17 and was in awe. I bought that same pair when I was 18, living in a college dorm. I didn't buy my first car until I was 20 - just goes to show how important great speakers are. The first time I met PWK, I had owed them for about a year. They were an unmatched pair (1950's vintage) with different versions of the K-5 midrange horns and different crossovers and woofers in each cabinet. He explained in detail the various changes that had been made and some of the engineering tradoffs that were faced along the way. When I asked what updates should be done to my pair he surprised me by suggesting certain specific, but not all possible updates. Needless to say, I was greatly impressed by the man's character. Now 30+ years later I still greatly enjoy all my heritage speakers (21 and counting) - yeah I know, Coulter is still winning! []

I came away from that meeting with two very clear perspectives: Paul was very intolerant of casual or misinformed criticism of the performance of his company's products, yet he was philosophical about the fact that no current product, design or technology represented anything like perfection. It was clear from his comments at the time that ongoing research and development directed toward product improvement should and would take place.

Dean, you have the benefit of hearing the Jubilees now as well as modern vs. modded klipschorns in your recent past. These are experiences I haven't had yet. My order for Jubilees will be placed next week. You are in a great position to compare and contrast the results of a range of different approaches. From the comments I have heard about large-format two-way systems, I think there would be considerable interest in a properly engineered, tested and measured system that is a factory- supported update. That approach would seem to be consistent with the longtime philosophy of Klipsch and provide the type of long -term product support that built the reputation and loyal following Klipsch enjoys today.

Dean, thanks for a great thread.

Bill W.

[JBryan]

To me, a well-designed and implemented 2-way system sounds more coherent than a similarly implemented 3-way. I'm much more likely to distinguish which driver is emitting the signal from a 3-way  - especially with less thought out designs and in closer quarters. My preference would be a single-driver set up (no xover) that could cover the full range but I haven't heard such and animal yet. The coaxial designs like some Altec, Pioneer and Tannoy drivers image well enough but they are essentially 2-way speakers and tend to have a limited range.

The Khorn bass bin may go to 500Hz but I think it would be more beneficial to find a top horn that will go down to 300Hz or lower as the bass bin starts adding distortions at frequencies above 250 or so. My solution was to put a full-range driver in a horn on top that naturally cuts off at 150Hz but I can certainly understand why folks would prefer using a compression driver. I'm not familiar with the CD's limits but I'd imagine a 2-way system with a 300Hz cut-off may be asking too much and probably very expensive. Maybe that's why the Khorn ended up as a 3-way design. Have Fun...

[Coytee]

My order for Jubilees will be placed next week

Congrats!!

[Deang]

Dean, thanks for a great thread.

Thanks for the great post.

I asked Roy if it was possible to do this with the Klipschorn. He said that PK and himself had already done it, and it does work. He said it's "Jubilicious". PK decided to incorporate the change into the "new" Klipschorn, but leave the current Klipschorn as is. Smart guy. He's leaves a choice for people, and avoids prison time for causing half the Heritage owners to go into cardiac arrest.

Just to stress - I have nothing against a good 2 way at all - I was mightly impressed with the RF7 on one occasion but that, in common with most 2 ways I know of, crosses over nearer 2K than 500 Hz. It just seems to me that anything at 500 Hz X-over is screaming to be placed in a 3 or more way although it may be fully possible to achieve a 2 way design.

See my post to Buckster towards the top of the previous page, and like Shawn said -- there's no problem getting these drivers to go from 500 to the highest limit of hearing.

Out of interest - what benefit would you expect to garner from a 2 way implementation other than the loss of a single X-over point? Do you see any potential drawbacks?

Sonically, or technically? Technically, it takes a whole chapter out of a loudspeaker design book to cover that. Technical improvements bring sonic improvements, it's rarely if ever the other way around. The loss of the additional crossover point means one less driver, and any designer will tell you that if you can drop a driver without reducing sensitivity, increasing distortion, can get a smoother FR with improved power response -- you do it.

http://www.trueaudio.com/st_xov_1.htm

"...as the bass bin starts adding distortions at frequencies above 250 or so."

In the context of this discussion, we are dealing with the question of a Klipsch engineered solution -- so that means a compression driver with a constant directivity horn. The Khorn bass horn has been playing out to basically 500Hz for 60 years, which makes me wonder how bad that distortion around 400-500Hz really is. "Distortion" isn't a word that comes to mind when I hear Klipschorn bass and lower midrange reproduction.

The Klipschorn became a three-way when recordings finally had something above 10kHz!

[Bill W.]

Dean-

At the risk of getting off track, I will add these comments:

In my experiences with 3-channel stereo, the center channel would benefit significantly by having an improved polar pattern in the horizontal plane. When using a Lascala or Belle Klipsch as a center channel in a shallow room, there is a noticable shift in the apparent location of a soloist as you move laterally in the room, due largely to the reduction in off-axis response in the treble. A change in the listener's position results in a greater angular change relative to the center channel than the flanking speakers. For this reason, a Klipsch - engineered two - way upgrade should provide for updates to the Lascala & Belle Klipsch also (If they were ever so inclined!)

[bhendrix]

Hey, Bill W, what's the latest news on Jubilees in Natalia's?? Can't wait to visit you this summer on one of our motorcycle runs throught Silverton.

Blessings,

Bill

[Bill W.]

Hi Bill,

The order for the Jubilees goes in next week! It takes time to get this type of special order evaluated and approved - BUT KLIPSCH SAID YES!!!!

I don't know what the production timetable will be but I'll keep you posted. Looking forward to meeting you this summer!

Best regards,

Bill W.

[DrWho]

What do you think is the usable range of the Khorn bass bin?

It'll do 500Hz.

But with what kind of directivity?

The +-5dB window of the khorn actually falls into

80-300Hz based on the chart you posted. +-3dB is even smaller than that

[] It's refreshing to see someone else notice the craziness in the

200Hz region....knock that crap out and you might be able to claim

35-350Hz. Maybe 450ish if you don't mind narrow dips in the response.

I probably wouldn't go with a 2-way khorn though. It's hard as heck to

cross from the beaming comb-filtered highs of the khorn bass bin to the

uncontrolled dispersion of a "small" top end. The 402 isn't even large

enough to control the directivity down into the region of the bass bin.

However, I might consider going with a temporary 2-way setup. The

discontinuity issues aren't going to be much different than any of the

other aftermarket mods that many enjoy. I'm not sure if that's what the

K403 was intended to be, but it would be interesting to see a horn like

the K510, but with a 400Hz cutoff frequency.

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone here could accurately tell

the difference between 400Hz and 500Hz by just listening to music. In

other words, a 500Hz crossover is going to be sonically very similar to

a 400Hz crossover and I don't see anyone complaining about going with

400Hz... Basically, the awesome new horns are pretty much K401's, but

with the ability to replace (and improve upon) the tweeter.

[sfogg]

"In my experiences with 3-channel stereo, the center channel would
benefit significantly by having an improved polar pattern in the
horizontal plane. When using a Lascala or Belle Klipsch as a center
channel in a shallow room, there is a noticable shift in the apparent
location of a soloist as you move laterally in the room, due largely to
the reduction in off-axis response in the treble."

If you are using a minibox to do this this would also be because of simple amplitude levels and Haas effect. The minibox is basically just a passive mono mixer. It has channel duplication between L and R and center. In a center channel method like this moving around even with something like the K510 will result in image shifting as you will hear the information that is still in L and R dominate more and more then closer you move to L or R. To keep a soloist central as you move around you need a more active method of deriving a center channel, one that moves the material out of the L/R and into mostly just the center.

Shawn

[Guest " "]

"If you are using a minibox to do this this would also be because of simple amplitude levels and Haas effect. The minibox is basically just a passive mono mixer. It has channel duplication between L and R and center. In a center channel method like this moving around even with something like the K510 will result in image shifting as you will hear the information that is still in L and R dominate more and more then closer you move to L or R. To keep a soloist central as you move around you need a more active method of deriving a center channel, one that moves the material out of the L/R and into mostly just the center."

Passive 3 channel arrangements results in the center signal being the difference between the L+R. There is no left channel signal in the center channel, there is no right channel signal in the center channel.

[sfogg]

"Passive 3 channel arrangements results in the center signal being the difference between the L+R. There is no left channel signal in the center channel, there is no right channel signal in the center channel."

All the minibox does is sum L and R total. It is nothing more then a passive mixer that mixes everything in left and everything in right into a third channel mono channel.

Anyone with a minibox setup can verify this. Unplug the right channel input to the minibox and play something through the minibox. All that the minibox is receiving is left channel... yet the entire left channel will also be in the center speaker too and you may even get a little bleed through to the right channel.

Only active, not passive, methods can remove the common material (in phase, equal amplitude.. what images from front and center in 2 channel) from L and R and steer that alone to a center channel.

BTW, a difference channel (material out of phase, what images as diffuse in 2 channel) between left and right is the complete opposite of a center channel... it is a surround channel.

Shawn

[Deang]

Mike, no one is denying the response is a little rough, it's been talked about plenty over the years. However, if we prioritized FR, no one here would be listening to any of the Heritage speakers (or horns in general).

"Power output with low distortion are the two primary criteria. You can put one first and the other second, either way, since after all the two are directly related mathematically. Third in importance is the polar pattern, whether the speaker radiates into the angle you want to cover. And last, probably the least important, is the effective frequency response." -- PWK

"I probably wouldn't go with a 2-way khorn though. It's hard as heck to cross from the beaming comb-filtered highs of the khorn bass bin to the uncontrolled dispersion of a "small" top end. The 402 isn't even large enough to control the directivity down into the region of the bass bin."

Roy might disagree with you. I think we need to defer to him on this issue.

"...The discontinuity issues aren't going to be much different than any of the other aftermarket mods that many enjoy."

Exactly, but the problems should be reduced (comparatively speaking) with the solution we're talking about.

"...For what it's worth, I don't think anyone here could accurately tell the difference between 400Hz and 500Hz by just listening to music. In other words, a 500Hz crossover is going to be sonically very similar to a 400Hz crossover and I don't see anyone complaining about going with 400Hz."

You couldn't identify which is which, but you could tell one was different than the other. As for the 500Hz crossover point, realize that this is the original crossover point for the Klipschorn, and that PK in fact ran his set up with no low pass filter -- he ran the bass sections full out, connected directly to the amp. I ran mine that way for almost a year, and if there's a distortion problem in that 350-500Hz area, I sure couldn't hear it. I also believe Artto runs his set up that way, and I don't remember you exactly being repulsed by what you heard.

"Basically, the awesome new horns are pretty much K401's, but with the ability to replace (and improve upon) the tweeter."

Uh, the old horns are exponential types and collapse the vertical. The new ones are tractrix constant directivity types. I don't think the horn type has as much to do with whether or not you can go two-way as it does the actual bandwidth of the driver. You can put on the squeeze with an exponential and get some lift in response, but it's no substitute for a wide bandwidth driver.

Here, is this better?

[Guest " "]

sfogg

So Shawn, whats you take on folks seting up 2 way khorns (componets, configuration, pros and cons, etc)....I'm having trouble reading inbetween the lines....your not speaking before congress....it's just us.

[sfogg]

Dean,

"I don't think the horn type has as much to do with whether or not
you can go two-way as it does the actual bandwidth of the driver."

The horn is going to have some effect on the end result too though.

For example some feel that 511B/902 needs a tweeter and end up running that combo with a K77. The 511/902 is more extended (by quite a bit) then a K77..... on axis. The k77 likely has wider dispersion up high then the 511/902 though. So from a power response point of view it puts more energy into the room which the listener which the listener ends up hearing.

Now you swap in a K510/402 for the horn in a two way and the situation changes. The power response on the top end is more consistent with the rest of the spectrum... it doesn't have less total energy in the room then lower down. Even if its on axis FR is the same as the other setup it no longer sounds a little soft up top.

Shawn

[sfogg]

If I had K'Horns it would be something I would experiment with.

Shawn

[Bill W.]

Shawn, you are correct in pointing out simple amplitude levels and the Haas effect as contributors to the lateral shift. I experimented with an old K-5-J midrange horn on top of a center channel Belle Klipsch and a simple switching network, to select between the K-5 and the stock K-500 in the Belle. Although the K-500 has an overall smoother response, there was clearly less lateral shift with different listener positions when using the K-5. It is very good in the horizontal plane (90 degrees) over its intended bandwith.