kaiser SET say Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Sweet Velle Duke, I'm an old Cam 396SS man myself but you can't beat the BK&WT on a SS[] None of my big blocks were ever corner monsters but aim em straight and hold on[] Just something about dropping the C and having your shoulders catch up with the seat of your pants once she levels out[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 What blows my mind is the new ZO6 turning 12.0 at 121 mph in the quarter right out of the showroom. Steel crank, titainium rods and valves, dry sump, aluminum block, aluminum CNC machined heads, magnesium frame, 3120 lbs and God knows what else for 70k. Like Cole Younger says, "It's a wonderment". JJK Wow......that IS something. And to think my 2004 Yamaha FJR1300 will do that bone stock too!! Man....I wonder what would happen if I put another $50K in performance parts in my bike. [] [] Tom A very quick death Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Wuzzer, thanks man, this is turning into a car thread...............Gotta' love it...........TOP NOTCH.........EH Bart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkp Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 wuzzer-the upgrades look great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted July 3, 2007 Author Share Posted July 3, 2007 Uhhhhhh......care to explain how "(struts/shocks/lowering springs)" contrubuted to "Much less body lean in the corners"?? Tom Um, the suspension components are stiffer than stock and the ride height being lowered causes the suspension to have less range of travel and the center of gravity of the car to be lower to the ground? Do you think that those components don't have any bearing on that? "Now that you know body motion is bad, what can you do to control it? The first thing to do is run stiffer springs. Stiffer springs will resist roll and bottoming out under roll and combinations of roll, dive and squat." http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0506scc_handling_cornering/body_roll_reduction.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Adams Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Uhhhhhh......care to explain how "(struts/shocks/lowering springs)" contrubuted to "Much less body lean in the corners"?? Tom Um, the suspension components are stiffer than stock and the ride height being lowered causes the suspension to have less range of travel and the center of gravity of the car to be lower to the ground? Do you think that those components don't have any bearing on that? "Now that you know body motion is bad, what can you do to control it? The first thing to do is run stiffer springs. Stiffer springs will resist roll and bottoming out under roll and combinations of roll, dive and squat." http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0506scc_handling_cornering/body_roll_reduction.html I, by no means, intend to get into a pissing contest with you here. So if that's the way I'm coming off I apologize. However......I've spent many an hour under a car changing suspension components and track testing the results. So I feel confident in my opinion. Whereas lowering a car does, in fact lower the CG, what it also does is to lower the roll center (RC) of the car. Now, initially, that might sound like a good thing. But it's possible that, due to certain geometries, one can lower the RC to the point that the theoretical RC is actually below the ground plane - i.e. beneath the road. That is NOT good. Anyhow..... Does what you did reduce the amount of body "lean"? Well, I'm sure there's a bit of a reduction. But the bottom line is that there is only one component in a car's suspension whose sole function is to control roll stiffness and that is the sway bar. Springs do nothing but suspend a car and transfer weight. The fact that you put a stiff-as* spring in a car and it limits body roll is merely a by-product of the spring rate, not it's intended fuction. In fact, I would assert that too many times folks try to use springs to control body roll and end up with a suspension that is waaaaay too stiff causing other handling issues/woes. Springs, shocks, sway bars, and suspension geometry must be considered as a system that needs to work in harmony. They each have their own unique fuction, yet they need to operate in concert with each other. Change one and it affects the other. Springs, by their vary nature can't "control" something. Do a look-up of springs and how they act when a force is applied to them. Initially they compress, but at some point they rebound. But let's slow the action waaaaay down. As the spring starts to rebound, all of the potential energy that was stored up during the compression phase now suddenly wants to be released. So in the first few miliseconds there's this huge acceleration spike. This force is then transferred to the car resulting, if not controlled, into the car "jumping up" (for lack of a better term). Additionally, the energy released from the spring can be such that it over-shoots the spring's free length (the distance between the top & bottom of the spring when it is sitting on your work bench). So what happens when it over-shoots? Well, the spring tries to pull itself back. But again, there's energy that gets stored up upon the the springs' extension and again, it snaps back. If you were to plot this compression/rebounding movement you would see that there's an initial spike, followed by an oscillation that decays over a given period of time. So how do you control a spring? It's done with a dash-pot which is engineering speak for shock absorber. Squat & dive (personally I like to refer to it as forward & aft weight transfer because that better defines what is really happening) can be modified by springs, but as sure as I'm sitting here, the spring does not "control" it. The spring merely limits how much there is. But I would also assert to you that squat and dive is much more complex in that a car's suspension geometry plays a big role. Let's also not forget that certain amounts of squat & dive are a good thing. Why?? Because in some instances, I want maximum weight transfer to the driving wheels in order to get max power to the ground to accelerate. If I've got some big stiff-as* springs up front to zero out my dive, those same springs will resist rearward weight transfer. My tires spin and I lose the race. [] Sway bars, or anti-roll bars, are the only components that limit body roll and at the same time does some weight transfer due to the physics of how the bar acts upon the car's suspension. Again, you can get too crazy with bar diameter and have a pis*-poor handling car. Well, I'm gonna shut the hell up now. But I hope you get my point. Way too many folks think they can just bolt some suspension stuff on and make a car "handle". It's more complicated than that. Hell, I didn't even touch on tires and how their "spring rate" comes into play!! [] Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 [] [] [] ...... Tom ..... you sound like .. Herb Adam's .... do you remember who he is ..?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser SET say Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Yo Dukester, you talkin' bout the White Sock Herb or Mr. Detroit aka tamer of the Pontiac TA[] (Did I mention his due dilligence on that one) My best friend in high school (Trans Am driver wouldn't you know) wrote a killer paper in college on Herb and his work at AAM. He is the best in the business of suspension and has put together many teams with a wide veriety of knowledge that makes a car put power to the ground and keep it there. Sorry Duke you asked Tom this question[:$] I could tell from reading Tom's post that he has busted a knucle or two in a wheel well[] Wuzz, Tom is spot on about the anti roll bars as they are what truly makes a car handle when going off center[] I just rebuilt my entire under pinnings on my Golf and I first just did my springs and shocks but left my stock sways in on purpose just so I could really tell the upgrade after installing 25mm front sway and let me tell you I'm tickled pink with the results[] Where I lack juice in the straights I always make it back up in the curves[au] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted July 3, 2007 Author Share Posted July 3, 2007 I, by no means, intend to get into a pissing contest with you here. So if that's the way I'm coming off I apologize. However......I've spent many an hour under a car changing suspension components and track testing the results. So I feel confident in my opinion. Whereas lowering a car does, in fact lower the CG, what it also does is to lower the roll center (RC) of the car. Hey, no problem. I knew what you were getting at as far as the anti-sway bars. The springs on a stock GT convertible are 450 lb/in (I think). As far as I know the Tokico ones I installed are about 600 lb/in. So, they're only about 1/3 stiffer than stock. It by no means is a stiff ride. I guess I'm experiencing faster turn-in and more control in the corners which gives the feel of a flatter cornering response. All I know is I really like the car now. [Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Just an observation, but isn't it interesting that for what seems like forever US cars have always needed suspension improvements from stock, while European cars handle great right out the box, and any suspension improvements just make a good handling car even better? (very generalized statement) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted July 3, 2007 Author Share Posted July 3, 2007 Just an observation, but isn't it interesting that for what seems like forever US cars have always needed suspension improvements from stock, while European cars handle great right out the box, and any suspension improvements just make a good handling car even better? (very generalized statement) My boss actually had an 01 Mustang GT convertible just like mine a few years back. His was the Bullitt anthracite color though. I remember driving it thinking it was not too bad as far as handling. He then bought a 00 Mercedes SL500 AMG. I think the rear tires on that car are something like 275/40/17 or something. Super wide and low profile. I never thought a car could ride so smoothly on tires like that. Its a great car, although I think it tips the scales at something like 4200 pounds. You'd never think that looking at how small it is. I think U.S. cars, especially sports cars, have traditionally been built from the engine on down. Stuff a gas-guzzling high horsepower engine into a mediocre chassis and call it a day. European cars tend to be more built from the wheels on up. Make all the suspension goodies work in sync with each other and if it has a nice engine, bonus! Heck, even Carroll Shelby had to look overseas to find a worthy chassis for his Cobras! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsched with Yamahas Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 The suspension packages are unbelievable these days. What, no Saleen?[] I have the 275/40/17's on my Firehawk, and was quite impressed on the quiet ride and driveability aspects of my Michelin Sport Pilot A/S. Heck, even many of the 1st gen resto-mods have modern suspension and brake systems installed to address those poor handling characteristics of the early models. The LS1 Trans Am Firehawk w/17 mpg VS my '69 SS Chevelle 396 that got 12.5 mpg........modern technology (gotta love it)! Nice Stang Wuzzzer, and any internal engine mods or Dyno results to post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsched with Yamahas Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Oldbuckster....this is my ultimate Vette: http://www.rogerscorvette.com/spots/feb98/spot.htm This car was unfricked believable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 Yo Dukester, you talkin' bout Mr. Detroit aka tamer of the Pontiac TA[] you got it, KSS ....[] I SCCA'd a T/A, w/ complete H.A. suspension for many years. we used to run in the Xerox parking lot, and Watkin's Glen ... 'till corporate america legalese killed both places .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted July 4, 2007 Author Share Posted July 4, 2007 Nice Stang Wuzzzer, and any internal engine mods or Dyno results to post? No, at least not yet. As time goes on I'll probably do little things to it now and then. JLT intake and a SCT tuner will probably be next mods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 Oldbuckster....this is my ultimate Vette: http://www.rogerscorvette.com/spots/feb98/spot.htm This car was unfricked believable That is a VERY NICE Corvette, but it could not compete with Todays Z0-6...the old ones aren't in the same league, in any department, except for bragging rights....Motion Preformance are the ones to turned out Vettes.......or Mallet..or the King of Corvettes...John Liggenfelter, hope I spelled that right........I speak only in terms of Performance, and handling....One's personal choice, is up to them.........67' Coupe, 427...4 speed...I would own that, but would rather have New Vette Z0-6.........or a 427 Cobra, or a 426 Hemi Cuda......or........................[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser SET say Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Yo Dukester, you talkin' bout Mr. Detroit aka tamer of the Pontiac TA[] you got it, KSS ....[] I SCCA'd a T/A, w/ complete H.A. suspension for many years. we used to run in the Xerox parking lot, and Watkin's Glen ... 'till corporate america legalese killed both places .. Sweet, a complete Herb setup[] I SCCA Autocrossed for many years and have a closet full of trofs to show for it but as you said most sights have been shut down with exception to private properties with agreement. You posted before me but when I read Tom's post it looked just like something right off one of Herb's papers. He could break down every aspect of how the suspension was working so well that a 10 year old could follow it[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 i still have somma his engineering books on the T/A suspension ...[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 That's a major problem with the Old Musclecars................They don't handle, their tires were awful back when, but gasoline was cheap, oil was cheap, nothing like the Rumble of Big Cubes though.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMays Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Very sweet ride Dukester. I'm a Ford guy but always loved the Velle's and Vette's. Bought a Vette a few years back then sold it after the summer. I have been considering a GT for a while now, even a used Viper. Heck, I'm always considering something. Dukester, it may not handle, but I would love a 1/4 mile run in that baby! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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