Best Sub for Heritage surround system?

[Ludovico]

I have a system with La Scalas front left and right and cornwalls center and rear. Any suggestions for a good sub? I'd like to spend somewhere between $500-$750 used and would greatly prefer a real wood veneer. If it's a particularly good deal I could spend a grand. Forgive me if this is sacreligious, but I'd be willing to step outside of the Klipsch product line for either an outstanding match soundwise or for a better chance of snagging something with a real wood finish. I'll consider both passive and powered (I've no shortage of suitable amps.)

[masterxela]

diy. $750 and no need for an amp gives you a LOT of options, and any finish you want

[SilverSport]

I use an Outlaw Audio LFM-1 (Hsu assisted design) with my Heresy Home Theater...sounded equally well with a Quartet and Academy HT...Klipsch makes some dynamite Subs now that are price comparable...lotsa raves for the Synergy Sub-12...

Bill

[DrWho]

I don't think the Sub-12 would mate very well with the Lascala.

For $750 I think DIY would yield the most bang for the buck, especially when amplification is already available. If I were to stick with the Klipsch route, the RT-12d (or a pair) would probably be optimal. The Ultra2 subs work quite well too. $1000 on the used market is probably pushing it right now though.

[IndyKlipschFan]

We seem to have a lot of SVS people with "upgrade itus" on here... hang in there! Maybe not "THE BEST", (OK My opinion, I think the THX amp and subs are..... sorry) but certainly the SVS is really nice! Look for used sunfire for bang for the buck... Velodyne etc., (real subs)

Ask here for a used RSW 15 as well.

[Ludovico]

Is the velodyne ULD-15 a good match? In walnut it would match my setup very nicely (at least looking at photos.) I could wait for a ULD-18, but I don't want overkill. I have cornwalls in back, so that end of my system has plenty of bass. I just want to round out the La Scalas in the front. Thanks!

[oldbuckster]

Where's theEAR when you need him, he's the Sub Doctor.....the Professor of Bottom End......the Shiek of Slam.....he'll be along, he knows best on this subject.............

[Arky]

Someone just posted a RSW-15 for sale in 2 channel, he's in LA though & I don't know that it would mate up but it was mentioned earlier.

[TheEAR]

A Sub12 for large Heritage speakers...no no no a mismatch. I would look at least a Klipsch RSW15 or RT-12d (bare minimum) to be able to keep up(at least to a solid output level).The ideal Klipsch match would be the THX dual sub/amp combo.Plenty of output and extension for even larger rooms.

I have to say with these large and capable mains you need a subwoofer that can extend below 20Hz,the 25Hz lower limit is hocus blsphemous BS. A real subwoofer MUST be capable of a solid 20Hz output(read at at least 110dB 1meter from the sub in room).

Would look at DIY like dual Dayton Titanic III 15" woofers mated to a Crown XTi2000 in a sealed box. This can best anything commercial under $1500,also I have now build a opposed sub using the Titanic III 15" woofers and it is quite impressive,bested with easy only by something like my dual TC-3000 15" powerhouse(30mm Xmax each way)mated to a Crown XTi4000. The box is a crucial part of the sub and I would take a well built box with smaller drivers rather than a largish one with lesser drivers. The dual TC-3000 can pound my RSW tower to the ground,it goes toe to toe with dual Fathom f113's! That is moving air!!

For large mains going with compact subs is a blasphemy and can only result in a major compromise.

There are other options some cheaper that offer more output at the expense of size.

[colterphoto1]

The EAR knows subs!

"A Sub12 for large Heritage speakers...no no no a mismatch. I would look at least a Klipsch RSW15 or RT-12d (bare minimum) to be able to keep up(at least to a solid output level).The ideal Klipsch match would be the THX dual sub/amp combo.Plenty of output and extension for even larger rooms."

EXACTLY, remember there is no such thing as TOO MUCH BASS, you can always turn it down, enjoy the headroom and lack of distortion. Nothing like buying too small of a tool and stressing it out. Like trying to pass someone on the highway driving a Yugo. [au]

[Ludovico]

Thanks for your help everyone. I'm glad the THE EAR weighed in! I'll keep you posted on my search.

[rcarlton]

I'm using an SVS PB12-plus/2 (a little pricey for what you want at $1,300) which keeps up with the K-horns nicely for movies. I tend to prefer not to use a sub for music...don't need it, except for organ music.

You need a good (meaning $ and size) subwoofer to keep up with the big Heritage speakers.

[TheEAR]

Also ...

For mains using folded horn loaded 12 or 15" woofers...I would use subs with drivers at least as capable as dual TC-3000 15" mated to 3000-4000W of power amp might to drive them. You need major air displacement and even SVS's dual 12" pale in comparison to two 15" with 30mm of Xmax (44mm Xmech each way!). You get the equivalent of a single 15" with 60mm of Xmax one way,that is massive.

I tell you I like my RSW's,my RT's...my Fathoms and Velos's but a mighty custom bruiser take the subsonic performance to a whole new level. You not only keep up you will be able to max your mains before a real mutha of a sub gives. With these monster subs it is very easy to achieve over 124dB @ 16Hz @ sitting position. Just double on the woofers and amps,it is very addictive.

Audio is a great hobby...with a little moolah. []

[DrWho]

The biggest problem with the high excursion drivers is the insane amounts of intermodulation distortion. If you want the distortion levels to keep up with fully hornloaded mains, then you will need to severely limit the bandwidth. The TC subs are pretty clean in their excursion, but man do they sound dirty when cranked up playing wide bandwidths. One of these days I hope to sit down and crank out some math to determine bandwidth/excursion relationships as they pertain to intermod...basically use that as a rule of thumb for keeping that distortion on par with our jubs, lascalas, khorns, etc...

For what it's worth, I would probably lean more towards larger radiating surface area to achieve the same displacement with less excursion. Of course the tradeoff there is that it gets big real fast...especially if you want it to match in efficiency too. I think two 18's per side outta come close....probably 4 per side if you're aiming for over 2 octaves with sub 20Hz extension.

[Islander]

I'm getting very good sound with a Paradigm PW-2100 and a pair of La Scalas. The 2100 has 400 watts RMS (1500 watts peak) driving a 10 inch speaker. The level knob is only at the 10 o'clock position and it blends really well with the La Scalas, both for music and movies. The bass sounds natural and it shakes the room just fine when needed. This model has a reputation for clean sound and reliable operation.

I think the US price for a new one is around $750.

[CECAA850]

For what it's worth, I would probably lean more towards larger radiating surface area to achieve the same displacement with less excursion. Of course the tradeoff there is that it gets big real fast...especially if you want it to match in efficiency too. I think two 18's per side outta come close....probably 4 per side if you're aiming for over 2 octaves with sub 20Hz extension.

IB FTW!!

[DrWho]

This will probably take things way off topic, but I'm starting to lean away from an IB being the best solution...especially not in the classical implementations where an attic or basement becomes the rear enclosure of the system. Of all the DIY versions I've seen, I'm yet to see someone addressing the standing waves and reflections that are occuring in the adjacement room. A true IB might work well, but any room with any one dimension larger than 4 feet is going to introduce large holes in the frequency response []

[CECAA850]

Of all the DIY versions I've seen, I'm yet to see someone addressing the standing waves and reflections that are occuring in the adjacement room. A true IB might work well, but any room with any one dimension larger than 4 feet is going to introduce large holes in the frequency response []

Are you referring to the back wave when you talk about the adjacent room?

[DrWho]

Yeah

The other issue with IB's is that they are mechanically undamped,

making them very susceptible to all of the mechanical and electrical

nonlinearities (because the amp is the only thing slowing the cone

down). As a result, an IB's performance will be affected differently by

different source material (since different source material triggers the nonlinearities of the system differently).

I don't mean to imply that IB's are a poor approach, it's just that you

see a lot of people not being satisfied with 8 and 16 driver

configurations - and I can't help but think it's a result of the

iron-fist approach. No matter how you shake it, a fixed diameter with a

fixed excursion will produce a known maxSPL regardless of the size of

the cabinet (assuming the driver can handle enough power to achieve

maximum excursion, which is only going to be true at the lower

frequencies). Really, the only thing the size of the cabinet determines

is how efficiently this excursion is achieved. All that to say, if you

can achieve the full excursion of the system with a small enough

cabinet to avoid the other issues, then I would expect the overall

system to sound better. You might sacrifice a touch of low frequency

extension, but anything below the resonant frequency of the driver

really isn't useable if you're aiming for low distortion.

But right now I feel the real cat's meow would be a folded bass horn

that

fits into the same unused space of the IB. You can spend less on

drivers and amplification, but you'll need to spend more on wood. The

aesthetic impact will be about the same because you can go with an

undersized mouth that takes up the same wall/floor/ceiling space as an

IB. An undersized mouth does introduce ripple in the passband of the

horn, but I'd wager that if you were creative that you could

intentionally design it such that it compliments the natural behavior

of the room.

At least that's how I see things in my flawed world of theory without

any real experience. I'd love the opportunity to play around with some

of this stuff, but I dont' think that'll happen until I've got my own

place to tear apart []

[TheEAR]

A well designed and optimised IB system bests anything in a box. A well designed IB system will use 4-16 drivers capable of moving massive amount of air,there is almost no compression,pressure being the same or close in front and back of the piston.

A proper IB driver has to have very long Xmax and very long Xmech.As using drivers with poor linear and mechanical excursion is a recepie for big disapoinment.

Ideal drivers for an IB configuration will have a very strong recall(spiders)and the amps used should have very high damping. These coupled with multiples of drivers like the famous Avalanche 15 or 18" or TC Sounds TC-1000 15" can really be the foundation of a dream system.

The smaller the box,the greater the compression under excursion will be. All very compact systems where the Q is over .5 are more and more affected by compression ...the longer the excusion. Compare a great IB sub with a great sealed sub. The sealed when under very heavy excusion will lose its sound quality,compression cannot be fought off even using extremly powerful motors like used by TC Sounds(TC-3000 and up) and JL Audio (Fathjom,Gotham). This is why I use multiples to never even come close to 40% of Xmax on peaks.

IB done right is awe inspiring. A few corners cut and it is a disaster and waste of money. Sealed is easy,and self damping.The higher the Q the more damping and harder it gets to bottom out the moving assembly.