Heresy ReCap Letdown!

[skywave-rider]

Well, I recently got  a set of 84 Heresys and I could not wait to get the recapping over with.

But let me start from the beginning: From the moment I first brought them home, I was having so much fun with the sound! They even had more bass then expected. Great speakers.

So after research done on this forum, I ordered parts for the E-2 network: 2 2uf 200v Audiocap Thetas and one 33uf 400v Solen per speaker. Got the parts today and put them in. Good news goes first: Much more solid, stable center image. HOWEVER -- less bass and bass extension. They also sound less exciting somehow.

: (

So. Is this due to the requisite cap break in period? Or do my ears have to break in to the different sound the speakers now have? I saved the original 2uf caps, I guess I could put them back. The small 33uf electrolytics had their leads cut to nothing, so those are gone 4 ever.

What do you guys think? I didnt cheap-out on the caps. Could that huge 400v Solen somehow just be wrong in this application? I knew that one was not too critical, but I wanted to go better than a run of the mill electrolytic.

If you could offer any advice, or perhaps console me through this trauma, it would be greatly appreciated....  

[oldbuckster]

Relax and listen to them for awhile..........First impressions aren't always correct, I bet after awhile you'll grow to like them, if not change 'em back, or sell them....................calm down, relax, and listen some more ...............

[Erik Mandaville]

"What do you guys think? I didnt cheap-out on the caps. Could that huge 400v Solen somehow just be wrong in this application? I knew that one was not too critical, but I wanted to go better than a run of the mill electrolytic."

In short: You have discovered that a larger investment doesn't always directly translate into improved performance. Part of what you may be hearing may have to do with the possibility of a difference in ACTUAL value of capacitance between the new Solen film cap and the non polarized electrolytic. Where the speaker was balanced to your liking before, the capacitor alterations, despite their higher price, may have rebalanced the system in a way that no longer sounds as good to you as it did before. Maybe allowing yourself to 'break in' to the new sound will help, and maybe it won't. As you suggested, I think I am the element of the equation that needs 'breaking in' when I make changes -- not the part in question.

But I've found the same thing. There were times in the past I sort of automatically yanked out an electrolytic capacitor -- either in an amplifier, or a preamp, or a crossover -- and found the solid dielectric replacement, which cost ten times (or more) the price of the electrolytic, didn't sound as good. The notion that ALL electrolytic capacitors are bad, IMO, is in error. It often has to do with the application, and high-value non-polar electrolytics are usually perfectly well suited to woofer circuits.

A 400 volt cap is a big capacitor in a film type. Even 50 volt capacitors are safe to nearly 150 watts. the voltage rating you selected isn't a problem, it would just add to the cost and take up more space.

So. Since the leads on the stock capacitors are too short to reuse, the nice thing is that they are very inexepensive caps to replace. There is no law that says you have to use expensive film capacitors, but you might try keeping what you now have, and replace the Solens with ana electrolytic. However, the balance may still be off. If the new capacitors in the tweeter branch, for example, have less internal resistance than the old caps (which may still be perfectly good capacitors), it may sound as if bass response is lacking a bit relative to the midrange and tweeter outputs. It may take some experimentation to get things back to where you like the sound again.

Good luck,

Erik

[djk]

The original caps were all dried up and reducing the mids and highs, and the 33µF wasn't cutting the mids from the woofer. With the new caps it probably sounds like it did new, a bit 'hot' in the mids and highs.

This is applicable to the E2 as well:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/178893.aspx

[HudsonValleyNoah]

SUPER THREAD!

Thanks

[skywave-rider]

I would like to thank all who responded with generous food for thought. This group is exceptional. 

I am inclined to think that the mind is the most malleable and subject to break-in regarding instances like this, relative to components. But it is reasonable to assume a change was really there manifested in sound I actually heard after the re-cap. 

I measured the old and new caps. They are pretty close on a meter. Even the original 33uf electrolytics. However, I know that under dynamic use, the values may shift. And the old ones may shift more under operating voltage swings. That I cannot see that with my meter. 

I measured the impedance of both monitors before and after the work. Before, one was 8 Ohms on the nose the other was a little more than .5 Ohm below that. I thought that was pretty darn good considering the age of the Heresys. Now they are both exactly 8 Ohms. 

About the sound, well, I really love these speakers. I am keeping them. They work well with my little tube amps. One interesting thing about my perception of the old sound is that I remember them as having more highs. That may have something to do with having more mid horn now, what I initially called a harder sound. 

What I might do: 

I would like to get some non polarized electrolytics and put them in the woofer circuit with a switch, allowing a relatively quick change between the Solens and the electros. Of course Ill have to allow time to screw on/off the back panels -- in these kind of tests speed is the only way to go, as within seconds, higher brain functions augment your memory. I could extend leads from the switches to the outside, but that would break the cabinet seal. And the woofer will not perform as intended.

Unfortunately I start teaching tomorrow, so my time will be limited and I may not actually be able to do this for a long time, or not at all. But Id like to. (Alas, no endless Summer....)

If anyone has impressions regarding the specific caps I used in similar monitors, Id love to read your thoughts. 

Thank you all kindly! 

Vincent

[LarryC]

Maybe this has happened already, but I suggest you just let them sit and play music for, let's say, at least 50 hrs. before you do anything. (I'm assuming some crossover break-in, since other electronics seem to do that imo.)

Larry

[Audio Flynn]

Maybe this has happened already, but I suggest you just let them sit and play music for, let's say, at least 50 hrs. before you do anything. (I'm assuming some crossover break-in, since other electronics seem to do that imo.)

Larry

Most times when I make a significant change, I play the radio non stop for 2-3 days before I listen critically.

[Deang]

The Theta is a film and foil, 10 hours of normal listening is all it needs, anything after that is placebo effect. Metallized types are a different story.

http://ldsg.snippets.org/appdx-ec.php

I measured the old and new caps. They are pretty close on a meter. Even the original 33uf electrolytics. However, I know that under dynamic use, the values may shift. And the old ones may shift more under operating voltage swings. That I cannot see that with my meter.

What you can't see with your meter is the ESR. The capacitance value typically doesn't shift all that much with age, but as the dielectric breaks down the ESR begins to climb. As the resistive element goes up, it steals energy and turns it into heat. IOW's, the capacitor begins to behave more like a resistor. When you replaced the caps the middle and high frequency output returned to where it was originally (what djk said). Actually, a little more -- film types have lower ESR than the mylars you replaced. So, the speaker sounds a little tipped forward compared to what you were used to. You noticed the improved imaging, and I'm sure it sounds cleaner too, and your complaint is centered around the bass response. You didn't "lose" bass, you just hear less of it because of the increased output of the midrange and tweeter. Replacing the electrolytics with the Solens has nothing to do with your complaint. The Solen is a good cap for that position and I would stay put. The Theta is an excellent cap, no need to second guess your choice there either.

People often forget that the Heresy was designed to be a floor stander, and that PWK designed all of his speakers to be placed near a corner. If you put them on stands or pull them out into the room you're going to hear a midrange forward loudspeaker. To get them to sound balanced, you either need to place them as intended or modify the network and knock 3dB off the top.

[kev313]

The Theta is a film and foil, 10 hours of normal listening is all it needs, anything after that is placebo effect. Metallized types are a different story.

 

http://ldsg.snippets.org/appdx-ec.php

 

I measured the old and new caps. They are pretty close on a meter. Even the original 33uf electrolytics. However, I know that under dynamic use, the values may shift. And the old ones may shift more under operating voltage swings. That I cannot see that with my meter.

 

What you can't see with your meter is the ESR. The capacitance value typically doesn't shift all that much with age, but as the dielectric breaks down the ESR begins to climb. As the resistive element goes up, it steals energy and turns it into heat. IOW's, the capacitor begins to behave more like a resistor. When you replaced the caps the middle and high frequency output returned to where it was originally (what djk said). Actually, a little more -- film types have lower ESR than the mylars you replaced. So, the speaker sounds a little tipped forward compared to what you were used to. You noticed the improved imaging, and I'm sure it sounds cleaner too, and your complaint is centered around the bass response. You didn't "lose" bass, you just hear less of it because of the increased output of the midrange and tweeter. Replacing the electrolytics with the Solens has nothing to do with your complaint. The Solen is a good cap for that position and I would stay put. The Theta is an excellent cap, no need to second guess your choice there either.

 

People often forget that the Heresy was designed to be a floor stander, and that PWK designed all of his speakers to be placed near a corner. If you put them on stands or pull them out into the room you're going to hear a midrange forward loudspeaker. To get them to sound balanced, you either need to place them as intended or modify the network and knock 3dB off the top. 

You never learn do ya?  It's a time alignment issue.  He needs an active crossover... [inserting old school smiley here ]

[Deang]

Right, I should have added that TDS and TEF measurements before listening are critical. Get those Heyser Spirals in front of you before you do anything, and for God's sake, don't forget the waterfall plots. Finally, make sure you account for the Hass Effect, and after you get it all dialed in -- don't move your head while listening -- ever.

[capo72]

Right, I should have added that TDS and TEF measurements before listening are critical. Get those Heyser Spirals in front of you before you do anything, and for God's sake, don't forget the waterfall plots. Finally, make sure you account for the Hass Effect, and after you get it all dialed in -- don't move your head while listening -- ever.

Thanx Dean! English is actually my 2nd language, as Sarcasm is my 1st language. I'm now cleaning Diet Mountain Dew off of my monitor and keyboard. Have a nice day!

Jeremy

[colterphoto1]

The original caps were all dried up and reducing the mids and highs, and the 33µF wasn't cutting the mids from the woofer. With the new caps it probably sounds like it did new, a bit 'hot' in the mids and highs.

This is applicable to the E2 as well:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/178893.aspx

My thoughts exactly.

Did you happen to refit just ONE of them first and then A/B both speakers to see if you would enjoy the change?

If not, why not? (apologies if you actually did this- many do not-this rant is for them)

There is exactly ONE chance to do this comparison and I'm shocked at the number of people who don't slow down enough to make a valid comparison of their own speakers, in their own home, of their own recorded material with their own ears. If it's a somewhat subjective comparison at least make the comparison .

[mark1101]

Good post Mike. It's definitely important....using your original point of reference.

[Erik Mandaville]

I think the original electrolytics were probably still fine. I've seen much older polarized and non-polar types that were still functioning perfectly. I wanted to ask: Is there ANY lead length left on those -- even 1/4"? In a day or two I can post a picture of a simple way to salvage them if there is just a little length left. That way, you don't have to buy new just yet (which you'll eventually probably want to do). The original 2uf caps should be fine, too.

Passive crossover caps see nowhere near the kind of voltage stress as those in active components, although I do agree that values of both capacitance and ESR can change over time. Internal resistances are also a little different between electrolytics and solid dielectric types, regardless of age; and that may be part of what's going on. Note, too, that a common practice is to bypass the electrolytic with something in the range of .1 to 1uf in a film capacitor, which is said to improve transient response at higher frequencies. For your application, though, it's probably not something that will make much of a difference.

What's good as that you're able to experiment to find what YOU like the best. Maybe you just prefer the sound of desicated capacitors!

Erik

[Deang]

I'm confused Michael. You say you agree with Dennis, and then continue as if you don't. Dennis said "The original caps were all dried up and reducing the mids and highs, and the 33µF wasn't cutting the mids from the woofer. With the new caps it probably sounds like it did new, a bit 'hot' in the mids and highs." He then posted a thread on how to reduce the squawker and tweeter output to bring the top into better balance with the woofer. If you agree with his assessment, then an A/B comparison is unecessary -- unless one wants to argue that if a speaker with bad capacitors sounds better to you, you should leave it that way. I think it's better to build with great parts, and then work with placement and the room.

[Erik Mandaville]

I forgot to mention that we also have Heresy IIs from the mid 80s. I had the drivers and terminal cups out to refinish them and repair a bashed corner from shipping, but I had no urge in the least to modify the crossovers. The speakers sound very good as they were and are. Capacitor changes are extremely simple to me, and there was no reason whatever that led me to believe the originals were bad. If you were happy with the sound before, and you want to change capacitors, I think that you might find that changing the old with similar new counterparts would be closest to what you heard before. In other words, new non-polar electrolytics and new mylar (which I think are most likely perfectly fine).

Someone said your capacitors were bad, which may be the case. That also may NOT be the case. What you know is that you liked the sound better before the change. You can listen for awhile to see if either the new parts or your own perception of the sound becomes more appealing, and if not, return to what you had before.

Good luck; something is being learned in the process even though it's not necessarily convenient.

ERik

[Islander]

I measured the impedance of both monitors before and after the work. Before, one was 8 Ohms on the nose the other was a little more than .5 Ohm below that. I thought that was pretty darn good considering the age of the Heresys. Now they are both exactly 8 Ohms.

What I might do:

I would like to get some non polarized electrolytics and put them in the woofer circuit with a switch, allowing a relatively quick change between the Solens and the electros. Of course Ill have to allow time to screw on/off the back panels -- in these kind of tests speed is the only way to go, as within seconds, higher brain functions augment your memory. I could extend leads from the switches to the outside, but that would break the cabinet seal. And the woofer will not perform as intended. Unfortunately I start teaching tomorrow, so my time will be limited and I may not actually be able to do this for a long time, or not at all. But Id like to. (Alas, no endless Summer....) If anyone has impressions regarding the specific caps I used in similar monitors, Id love to read your thoughts.

Did you measure the impedance or the resistance? I'm not assuming you don't know the difference, but few "8 ohm" speakers measure exactly 8 ohms anywhere on the impedance curve. They're usually below 8 at some points, above 8 at other points, so the impedance rating is a "nominal" rating in most cases.

As for quickly switching back and forth, to do an A/B comparison, that can be misleading, since it favours a sound that jumps out or grabs your attention over the subleties of a possibly better sound. Listen to each setup over a week or more and then see which one you like best. Make notes if you like. Most hi-fi magazine reviewers listen to speakers and other components over a month or two before they form a proper impression about the item they're reviewing.

[Erik Mandaville]

Something simple to look at and recheck: confirm the polarity on the parts your rewired. I'm not suggesting you did anything wrong, but there were a couple of times in the past I found reduced bass output to be the result of an accidental out-of-phase connection.

Isn't the tweeter on the E2 wired in reverse?

Best of luck with the new school year!

Erik

[Deang]

There was a thread where Bob measured a bunch of the old blue oval Mylars, I couldn't find it. I emailed Bob to see if he had it bookmarked, but he didn't -- but he did remember the measurements.

Dean,

I am not sure about where that might be. I have tested lots of those blue mylars. Usually read about 0.5 ohms ESR or somewhat higher. The flat yellow caps that Klipsch used in a lot of AA crossovers in the late 70s are terrible. Lots worse than the blue ones.

Bob

Healthy caps measure in the milliohms.