Anyone see The Fast & Furious

[Vahorns]

About the Honda Civics and the like, supposedly fast cars when modded...

When modded the reliability of these designs especially the gearboxes, goes way down. The basic engine low end components(crankshaft, pistons, connecting rods, main and connecting rod bearings, the block) do not hold up to more than 250 horsepower with any reliability.

The basic problem with these cars is that they have very little low end (low RPM) torque. Torque is the most important factor in moving a car from a stop.

To move from a stop, these cars must spin their small

4-valve, twin cam motors high into the RPM range.

They do breath well in the upper RPM ranges, but most all of our driving on the street is all about 0-70 MPH.

That's where American Muscle shines. The older '60s-early '70s big block cars made gobs of low RPM torque, where these cars could accelerate from a stop

with such force and speed that no 4 cylinder could ever match. Check out a Dodge Viper for a modern car that has gobs of torque.

In terms of overall performance, nothing that has ever come from Japan is any match for a Chrysler Hemi engined car. Take a look at the NHRA Top Fuel class.

The only engine used in the fastest NHRA cars, period.

The fastest factory car to ever to be built was a 1968 Dodge Dart HEMI, turned 10.0- 10.3 ETS right out of the factory. These cars still hold all the NHRA records for their class, 35 years later! The American big-block cars made incredible low end torque; look at the Honda S2000 roadster --- no low end torque to speak of, less that 150 lb.ft at a high RPM level, not much fun when used in 0-70 MPH street usage. And you have to spin that Honda engine with the buzzy, fatiguing

high RPM droning, to get any usable power. Thats why

people buy Corvettes and Vipers---low RPM torque, plain and simple.

These rice cars are fine for the un-initiated, un-informed. Bring them down to the track, and find out what real cars are like, whether your form of racing is

NHRA/IHRA drag racing, autocrossing or road circuit racing.

Oh, on the Supras, yes they are nice cars, but at what price? Turbo charged vehicles like the Supra and the Buick GNX or T-type Turbo introduce much higher cylinder pressures and higher internal temperatures which will definitely lower the durability and reliability of these "boosted" cars.

I'll take a Corvette Z06 or a used Viper anyday, and if I want to really get serious, I can add a turbo or supercharger kit that makes these vehicles into race cars on the street...

[Diggs]

Preach on brother! One problem though, Supra's are VERY reliable cars, at a price though. They can easily take 600+HP on stock internals. Too bad they cost an arm and a leg.

[QUiKSR20]

Thats right supras will take 600HP and be reliable.

As for the S2000 show me one american 4 cylinder

that can make 240HP allmotor out of 2.0 liters?

thats PURE F1 Technology on the street. Yes it doesnt

have the low end but the top end power is insane. It

will click off 13 Second ETS in stock trim and outhandle

some of the best out there it has FRONT MID Engine and

full double wishbone suspension even civics have better

suspension desgines then most muscle cars. My buddys 9

second sentra has only used 1 motor for the last 2 seasons

running over 600HP only problem is axles breaking occasionaly and he went through 1 head gasket.

STOCK BLOCK with pisons and rods stock crank etc.

these 4 cylinders can take power when you do a little

work to them hell my buddys civic runs 11.9s with a

STOCK INTERNALLY from oil pan to valve cover integra

motor on boost lots of boost and wont last forever but

he has 25k on it alreayd and its stock pistons and rods

still.

Import racing has just really begun to get big and

FWD Hondas are hitting 8.1's @ 170+ MPH and RWD Imports

Either rotary or 6 cylinder are on the virge of 6's

at 180+ MPH not too far off muscle cars at the track

were not talking funny cars here were talking street

gutted cars with cages etc tube frames etc but NOT

FUNNY CARS..

------------------

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Daryl Gregg

MY Home Theatre Page

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This message has been edited by QUiKSR20 on 01-29-2002 at 05:13 PM

[Diggs]

quote:

---

Originally posted by QUiKSR20:

Thats right supras will take 600HP and be reliable.

As for the S2000 show me one american 4 cylinder

that can make 240HP allmotor out of 2.0 liters?

thats PURE F1 Technology on the street. Yes it doesnt

have the low end but the top end power is insane. It

will click off 13 Second ETS in stock trim and outhandle

some of the best out there it has FRONT MID Engine and

full double wishbone suspension even civics have better

suspension desgines then most muscle cars.

---

Do you know what it takes to make those things run 13's? High RPM clutch dumps. You have to beat the **** out of them to run well, and who buys a car like that to beat on it? Yes, they do handle amazingly well though.

This message has been edited by Diggs on 01-29-2002 at 08:51 PM

[mike stehr]

Haven't seen a Honda Funny Car yet.

Can't see a Vtech outrunnin' a Keith Black.

Maybe some day, Huh?

The only Honda Funny cars I see, are the

ones with the Japanese Competition stickers,

Aluminum air foils on the back, and Clown

exhaust tips.

(They look pretty funny.)

I've seen Honda's at the track, they haul ***,

But they always seem to be in a different bracket.

[mike stehr]

Let's not forget the Volkswagens either.

I seen a beetle shoot off the line so hard,

it went straight in the air.

Cleared all 4 tires off the ground, the

guy damn near hit the tree.

Those little Pan 4's can scream.

[Vahorns]

I stand by my assessment. Simple law of physics at work here.

For street driving, the most pleasure = LOW END/LOW RPM TORQUE= simple law of physics (ability to move mass quickly from a standing stop).

600 horsepower Supras or any highly boosted Turbo application, regardless of manufacturer = BOOM !!!

!!! (that was the sound of your engine self-destructing when trying to increase the turbo boost to the 600 horsepower level, and run that engine repeatedly, at the track or on the street at WOT and high boost, say BYE-BYE motor).

These engines (with the exception of the Supra which was factory rated at 320 HP) are way down on power in naturally aspirated form, that they have to add-on a turbo or NOS , or both, to make any power. Civic engines are what 170 horsepower? And how much torque and at what RPM do those Civics develop the top torque rating? Take a ride in a big-block '60s muscle car at WOT, then you will feel torque. Take the turbo or the NOS off the Civic engine, and what are you left with? Decent engines that are not designed to run against big-block engines like the legendary HEMI.

It kills me when Supra guys get all cocky, thinking they can beat anything. Talk is cheap, Come down and run a couple of Mopars at the track with HEMIs, if you are so tough.

Supras are nice street cars. Dodge Darts with HEMIs will eat them alive. The Darts are full-bodied cars, not tube chassis rail dragsters, and have run 8 second passes in NHRA mildly modified forms.

As far as Civics running 8 second passes, those are not Civics, those are just tube-chassis cars (nothing at all in common with a street Civic) with a fake fiberglass body that resembles a Civic with a pumped up

specialty built engine with loads of boost. These "rails" are the same chassis' run by NHRA Top Fuel dragsters, but with a little 4 cylinder turbo motor.

Put a HEMI in the same chassis and what do you have...Take a look at the FASTEST NHRA CARS PERIOD>..TOP FUEL ELIMINATOR, all POWERED by CHRYSLER HEMIS SINCE the 1950s. Running 4 second quarter miles ...No CIVIC(rail dragster chassis or not) with a 4 cylinder is any competition against a HEMI.

GO to the NHRA website for the proof.

[mike stehr]

I had a Hot Rod magazine once with '68 HEMI Dart in one of the articles.

Chrysler's version of a Ford Thunderbolt.

Dual quad 426,(425 horse?) only in Primer gray, fiberglass bumper,fenders,hood,(I think) one seat, and straps for window cranks.

Not to mention all other weight reduction.

You gotta admit, this wasn't your average doorslammer.

I don't think very many were produced, I don't recall.

Double digits, triple digits?

I think they are some of Chrysler's rarest of the rare.

Have you even seen one?

Hard to Imagine, buying a car like this, off a showroom floor, liscense it, and drive it on the

street? Wild!

Poor Cops, Look what they had, LOL!

I'm sure the Dealers for these cars at the time had to question a driver's ability.

Like, 'You do realize this more or less a race car?'

Or, 'Uh, this isn't exactly Grandma's Belvedere'.

Like you said, HEMI's have Dominated NHRA for 35 years, even Today's top Nitroburners are using engines with the same HEMI design principal.

I'm glad I can at least weasel in the drags once a year to get a good dose of Nitromethane.

Where's that 5000 horse Honda at?

Oh yeah, 'Fast and the Furious' maybe I'll rent it some day.

[QUiKSR20]

You have to compare apples to apples your comparing

a four cylinder to an 8 and we tend to hold our own

against 8s.. You have to think about it. Why does a

1988 Honda CRX or any civic from 88 have just as

sophisticated suspnesion as a 2002 VETTE? full double

wishbone multi link it took american cars over 10 years

to get that style setup on a car that honda has had forever

also if you want to compare V8s to V8s whats the new

corvette HP? 340 5.7 V8 the infinity Q45

puts out 345HP out of 4.5 liters and the Nissan Maxima

puts out 255HP out of 3.5 liters and both come in 6 speed trim

You think a ford taurus chrysler seabring or whatever

can hold its on to a jap or euro counter part? ala

maxima, jetta VR6, etc.. muscle cars get fast for cheap

and they do get fast but american cars vs jap cars as

a whole dont compete in style realiability , resale value

etc etc..

Almost any new V6 mid sized car from japan or euro will

spank its american counterparts in handling and speed.

V8s i cant totaaly account for because the V8 import

market is still rather small but its getting there

BMW's 5.0 liters motor is pushin 395HP and Infinitys

Q45 is pushin 345out of 4.5 liters.. no flames im just telling the truth

I know muscle cars are fast.. Im just an import guy.

its like this sit in a 2002 vette and look at the dash

the seats etc the layout then sit in a 96 Supra or NSX

and see which car feels more sporty which controls are

more oriented and which has better instumentation. In

a supra 300z or RX7 the seats hug you tight you see a

big center mounted tach in front of you the controls

rap around you. You feel like your in a race car.

------------------

Thanks,

Daryl Gregg

MY Home Theatre Page

Sony STR-DE975 HT Reciever

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SC-1 Center

Quintet Rears

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This message has been edited by QUiKSR20 on 02-01-2002 at 10:16 AM

[mike stehr]

I can agree with that.

American cars have sucked since goverment emission

restrictions.

[QUiKSR20]

I use to love 80's Fox Chassis mustangs and still

give respect to the hot rods for what they have

done.. Gotta love HEMI's and the power they make.

But technology has gone a long way and now you have

to make power and make it clean thats a pain.. I know

all the guy s i race with cars would never pass emissions

even though they have valid inspection stickers

------------------

Thanks,

Daryl Gregg

MY Home Theatre Page

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[Mighty Favog]

I too remember the days of the mini-dragstrip that always appeared on my street on weekends (long, flat & straight). The smell of exhaust from a curburator set too rich was something I forgot about. One day a few months ago I was walking to my office and saw a Buick GS (black over yellow) drive pass and I thought "Now that's been taken well care of". Till the two-billion hydrocarbons made it to my lungs. Gasp... It did give a new appriciation for technology, not that I praise the government a whole lot for the emmisions junk they legislated to enforce a new era.

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Tom's Money Pit

[mike stehr]

Daryl,

Do they actually have Emission testing where your at?

Or they just have Vehicle Inspections?

[QUiKSR20]

Pretty Tight Emmisions Testing! Im in New Jersey

1 hour from the city and 10 mins from the beach.

------------------

Thanks,

Daryl Gregg

MY Home Theatre Page

Sony STR-DE975 HT Reciever

Sony DVP-NS400D DVD

SB-3 Mains

SC-1 Center

Quintet Rears

KSW-12 Sub

AR Proseries Interconects

[matthew2]

A new Honda civic gets like 127hp. A civic SI gets 160.

I would perfer a new civic coupe or SI over a 500 HP tree killer. I care more about handling as well.

Anyone can drive in a straight line. Drag'n is a test of a persons car, not that much of a drivers ability.

Real racing, to me that is, has some turning. Or losts of turning. Its fun.

Import cars, DONT have a lot of low end torque. Thats why my 88' Honda civic gets reved up so high when I want to take off. And the engion never has a problem. Whats wrong with high rev's?

------------------

Matthew

Gatta' love klipsch

[Jader]

quote:

---

Originally posted by matthew2:

Allright then,

The Suberu IMPREZA WRX will outrun an American Muscle car from a standing start in many cases. and out handel it.

But is doesnt make the kick *** grumble of an old American Muscle car. So I guess all that matters is what you like the best, not what other people think.

---

Not sure about outrunning a muscle car. Sure it has 227 HP (250 if you hollow out the converter) but the raw overhead power just isn't there. Outhandling... yeah, I'll give it that... no American muscle car was deisgned for rally racing nor AWD.

And you are 100% correct -- it's what you like, not what other people think. I mean honestly... you can brag all you want about specs, but how often are you going to be able to drive a car to its full potential?

Ooooooh you put an oversized exhaust on your Honda and it sounds like a 2-stroke lawnmower, I'm so impressed. Then you have to mash the brakes so you don't run the red light. Bet you go through brake pads like a mofo. Performance is nice but looks come out ahead 9 times out of 10 if you're out to impress.

Hehehe @ trailer park car! (Hemi Cuda)

Fav cars:

Nissan Skyline GT

Acura NSX Type S-Zero

Ferrari 512 Testaraossa

Mitsubishi 3000GT (Dodge Stealth R/T Turbo)

Shelby Cobra GT500 (naturally!)

------------------

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Plextor 24x10x40 CD-RW; Sony 52x CD-R; Pioneer 16x DVD

Creative 56k v.92 =)

[mike stehr]

The 1968 440 wedge and 426 Hemi Darts were built by Hurst Performance to be used in NHRA drag racing.

Chrysler assembled the basic chassis and delivered the cars with engine and drive train separate.

Hurst modified the cars for racing prior to installing the powerplant and drive line. Modifications included lightweight glass, front seats, fiberglass fenders and hood, radio, heater and rear seat delete and relocation of the battery to the trunk.

The 426 Hemi used in the Super Stock Darts was not the 425 hp street Hemi. The Street Hemi was rated at 425 hp with a 10.5:1 compression ratio.

The Hemi in the Dart was a more powerful 12.5:1 race Hemi.

They only made 80 of them.

WRX? They make a buttload of those.

Here's a Canadian who doesn't feel the same way you do about American Muscles Cars, Matt.

http://www.gearheader.com/0004/dandy/dart02.cfm

This message has been edited by mike stehr on 02-04-2002 at 04:50 AM

[Vahorns]

This is for Quiksr20...

I have raced extensively.

Autocross since 1972, drag raced since 1969, circuit raced as part of a team in the '70s and early '80s.

I have owned several Porsches, including a 1961 Porsche 356B modified, and a Porshce 911, vintage 1972, with many mods.

I 've also owned an RX-7, several Civics, Toyotas, Benz, as well as Subaru. I was a car dealer for several years.

In terms of handling sophistication, I'll take a Vette Z06 or a Viper ACR, against anything from Europe or Japan. Same in braking...

In terms of street driving prowess, these cars are without challengers. Even the new Porsche Carreras don't do any better, even with the turbo (which adds incredible cost--break one and pray you can afford to fix it---and incredible complexity). NSXs that I have seen at the track or autocrossing are relying on a 6 banger with soem help, but are no match for either of the above mentioned on a road course. Been there, experienced it with my own eyes.

Torque is what moves mass (cars) on the street.

Thats how you get away from a standing stop QUICKLY.

And in terms of reliability, take your pick, turbo or supercharger introduces heat, complexity and great stress to the internal components of any engine.

Go ask the better engine builders, and ask what they rebuild most: Answer = busted turbo/supercharged engines.

If you are talking horsepower, a fully race prepared Chrysler HEMI has seen in excess of 7,000 horsepower, in a legal NHRA Top Fuel dragster. All of the NHRA TOP FUEL records are held by HEMI powered rails.

In land speed records on a closed circuit (race track),

the Chrysler HEMI in a 1970 Plymouth Roadrunner Superbird held that record for many years at Talladega

Alabama.

The problem with these little Civics is they have NO POWER/NO PUNCH off the line. Thats where the fun is, that is where races are won and lost (the 1st 60 feet from the start).

BTW instead of screwing everyone by racing on the streets (and endangering people besides yourself), be

courageous and bring the car to the track, whichever form of racing you enjoy.

But remember, Torque is where it's at, for street action.

Get a ride in a high perf. car like a Vette when you can, and you will immediately feel the difference.

[Mike Lindsey]

Vahorns,

I couldn't have said it better myself. BTW, I moved down from No Va just last March and was a member of NVCC (Northern Virginia Corvette Club) for many years. We do most of our Autocrossing at ODS (Old Dominion Speedway). Nothing but modified vettes on the track 8-10 times a year. We used to do home and away events with a lot of the other clubs (BMW, Porsche, F-Body, Mustang) and they had no chance on that track against us. The BMW's would fare well on the parking lots when we could never get out of first gear. They would always set up a first gear track when we were coming to town.

If you missed it, Darryl (QuickSR20) is a drag racer and has drag strip experience. Me personnaly, I prefer the road courses and that is where the Corvette shines. Have you had any experience running the big track at Summit Point? Before my 92 was modified, I was running 1:30's and would like to think that I could run 1:27's in it's modified state. We had club members running 1:25's there (much better drivers than me). I have been looking at the Z06's (and want one) but I really can't part with my '92 in order to get it. I have my heart and soul in this car, plus it is my first one...

Mike

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My Music Systems

This message has been edited by Mike Lindsey on 02-04-2002 at 05:34 PM

[Klipsch-daddy]

a must have..

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Yamaha RX-V1000

Klipsch RF-3's

Klipsch KSC-C1(LOOKING FOR A RC-3 OR RC-3II)

Kenwood KSV64 Bipolar Speakers

Klipsch Subwoofer KSW-12

Television: TOSHIBA THEATER VIEW 50"

DVD Player SONY S-360

CD Changer CDC 585 5 Disc Yamaha

Philips Pronto ts-1000

monster cable interconnects/12 gauge speaker wire