Palladium P-39F Specs

[Mic Stiffy]

Yeah, thats intersting. You would think these puppies would outperform the RFs on all facets for the price tag. They look amazing though. I shouldn't judge them too much before I hear them. Still those specs don't add up.

[Mike Lindsey]

Don't get hung up on the specs folks. I am certain they provide more details, clarity, separation of instruments, imaging, air, etc., as those are things that are important to me.

I'm guessing they would bury anything the RF Series has to offer, as they rightfully should.

Mike

[IndyKlipschFan]

Amy when will these be for sale? OVATION>?>>

[BillH2121]

I agree with others who have posted that the Palladium specs regarding range are somewhat surprising. I assumed the new speaker would dig as deep or deeper than the RF7 and perhaps deeper than the RF83. Could an "engineering type" explain the similarities and differences between these three speakers based on the specs given and perhaps provide a little light on the "extension" spec. I'm not familiar with that term (I'm actually not all that knowledgeable in this whole area) and would appreciate a little education. Of course I realize that you can't judge a speaker on specs alone and I'm really anxious to hear from those who do get the opportunity to listen to these beautiful speakers Thanks

[Guest JimG]

Hello everyone. It's been probably about 5 years or so since I have last posted. I don't exactly recall. Anyways, to those of you who don't know me I suppose a brief introduction is in order. Hopefully one or two of you remember me from back in the day when I was an active "poster" on the forums. I apologize in advance for being wordy but I felt the need to give a little background on myself.

I'm Jim Garrett. I have worked for Klipsch for quite some time now - this fall will be my 9 year anniversary with the company. I am the Director of Product Planning for Klipsch and am responsible for most of our loudspeaker products. I don't do any of the iPod docks, headphones, multimedia, HTIB's or other things like that. I do all Reference, Icon, Palladium and THX products. If it is sold at specialty retail then it is probably mine. I also developed virtually all of our architectural models and am the sole survivor of the Aragon development team from back around 2001. Anyways, I still lurk around here quite often and Amy has been prodding me into posting on here. She has posted a few things from me recently so I figured it was about time I did some myself.

OK, so now on to why I am responding in this thread. I thought I would shed some light on the Palladium spec issue that has come up on here and share some excitement I had today. I just got to hear the very first pair of voiced P-38F's! They sound incredible! I simply love this line! I can't wait to get a multi-channel system setup to listen to - it's gonna be a week or so before that happens though. Let me also say thank you all so much for your enthusiasm over this new series. It has really been a fun project and to see it going over so well has been quite rewarding. I can't wait to get all of the core line models finished up and out into the world.

So, specs. They can be as misleading as they can be helpful. That should be pretty obvious to anyone who has tried to compare specs between manufacturers. Unlike electronics, speakers really don't have any formal standards that everyone follows so you tend to get what each company wants you to get. We (speaker manufacturers) don't all measure them the same way and lots of engineering specs tend to get "massaged" by the marketing departments before they find their way onto websites and into literature. Sometimes it obvious when they get a little carried away and sometimes it is hard to know. Sometimes, the specs are actually correct. The problem is that you don't know. The other issue is that you can't really tell much about what a speaker sounds like by reading a spec. Maybe you get a general idea of the performance but not nearly what you get when you listen to them. Lots of aspects of speaker performance cannot be quantified in a spec. Anyways, I think a lot of you recognize that. You might also want to read Andre's blog for some further insight on specs. I could go on for quite a while but this is already a pretty long post.

We have always tried to make our specs "legible" for the layman and useful as far as giving you an idea of what the product can do in your home. After all, your living room is not an anechoic chamber. We often revise how we spec a product in order to be more beneficial to the consumer and what you are seeing here is the result of some of that revision. The RF-83 and the P-39F are not spec'd the same way. The biggest difference is the frequency response. The RF-83 was done to reflect an "in-room" aspect. Speakers benefit from room gain and often end up getting a boost on the low-end. (The Klipschorn is an obvious example of that.) This means that the RF-83 bandwidth stated takes that into account. We included the "Low Frequency Extension" (-10dB) into the bandwidth and did not break it out as a separate spec. That is the case with all Reference models to date. The reality is that there is usable bass content below the -3dB cutoff that is clearly audible in a room so we wanted to show that to the consumer. With the P-39F, we decided to go ahead and break that out of the spec. (For example, B&W and Paradigm both publish specs this way.) Going forward, we will begin to spec all of our speakers like we did Palladium. Icon is the first product line to see that happen. Again, I could go on about how you measure bandwidth - what window do you publish, is it related to sensitivity, does it reflect expected performance in a room, etc. Then there's the issue of sensitivity and other specs. We also have to look at how the models line-up against each other within a Series. Again, Andre has blogged about this before so enough from me. Here's the bottom line: if we were to measure these two speakers the same way, they would look like this:

P-39F

FR: 39Hz-24kHz +/-3dB

LF Ext : 28Hz

HF Ext: 30kHz

RF-83

FR: 41-21kHz +/-3dB

LF Ext: 29Hz

HF Ext: 23Hz

Now, you still could say those two specs aren't too different. However, how do we relate to you the response between those bookend numbers? Is one flatter than the other? Is one a little hotter in the midrange? Is one a little darker on top? Which one plays louder? Which one has more dynamics? That's hard to relate in a spec. Consider this too, the RF-63 actually goes lower than the RF-83, however it's is a little down in output throughout the bass region yet still falls within the +/- spec. When you listen to the two speakers side-by-side you'd think the 83 goes lower because thats how it sounds. It simply has more output in the lower octaves that tends to mask the slightly higher roll-off. The result is the RF-83 is going to have lower bass in a room while the 63 wins in the chamber based on raw data. You can't always trust the spec to give you the whole story. (That's why we ALWAYS do final voicing by ear - it's the best instrument we have!) The point of all of this is it is difficult to try to respresent the performance of a speaker in a spec yet they are necessary in order for a consumer to have some idea of a comparison. Again, speaker brands don't all do it the same way. All of this is the result of us trying to supply you with the best information we can give. None of it in my opinion can ever replace listening to a speaker though. Speakers are the by far the most personal choice of any audio components.

Whew! Ok, I'm sure I've caused enough confusion to generate lots of feedback from you. It's been years so I guess I shouldn't try to cram all of that pent-up posting into this one post. However, I do feel that I should be nominated for "longest post of the year". I'm not proud. Next time I will try not to wait years before I post again.

Thanks for reading.

Jim

[Arky]

Jim

Thanks for the enlightening post. Amy finally wore you down, huh? As for longest post, forget it. mas beats yours daily.[]

[Islander]

For some of those reasons, Paradigm publishes anechoic and in-room sensitivity numbers, eg. "sensitivity 89dB (91dB in-room)". Of course, Paradigm's room and your room are probably not identical-looking or identical-sounding.

Since all the manufacturers seem to measure their speakers differently, it really seems like you have to hear them for yourself, or listen to reviews from people who have spent some time listening to the speakers in question.

[Amy]

Since all the manufacturers seem to measure their speakers differently, it really seems like you have to hear them for yourself, or listen to reviews from people who have spent some time listening to the speakers in question.

Exactly! []

Jim,

Thanks so much for re-joining the group! And also for your well thought-out and informative response. I can't wait to come down and listen to what you guys have done so far...

For anyone truly interested in this line, I strongly recommend you come to the Pilgrimage in June!!

[Mic Stiffy]

Your beautiful Jim. Are you a drummer?

[Amy]

For anyone truly interested in this line, I strongly recommend you come to the Pilgrimage in June!!

But they'll be out on the street before June, right Amy????

If the stars align properly, then YES! But they may not be at a convenient dealer for everyone. I'm just sayin' []

[Guest JimG]

Yep. I'm a drummer. I was surprised to see my Avatar was still there after all those years. That's a picture of one of my kits I took about 6 years ago.

[Mic Stiffy]

Nice. I just ordered custom parts and Keller shells to build my own kit. Looking forward to the process. What kind of kit do you play?

[Daddy Dee]

can't wait to hear Palladium. has to be sweet.

[BillH2121]

Thanks for the explanation Jim - that's the kind of layman's language I hoped someone would provide to explain the specs and the differences between the speakers that were discussed. Great job!

[Guest BobG]

Midrange performance on the P-39F is in a completely different league than RF-83. It's not merely a matter of tonal balance (which favors the Palladium) but also of distortion which is exceedingly low on the Palladium. I'll be interested to hear feedback from those of you who get a chance to listen. US dealer network will not be large as not many can sell speakers in this price range. But if there is a dealer within range, I suggest you make a special trip to hear these speakers. I've been in the audio business my whole professional life and these babies really impress. We are slowly shipping the advance orders to Europe and then will start to deliver to US dealers. I'm sure we will post a list of Palladium dealers on the web site as that group develops.

[Mike Lindsey]

Midrange performance on the P-39F is in a completely different league than RF-83. It's not merely a matter of tonal balance (which favors the Palladium) but also of distortion which is exceedingly low on the Palladium.

BINGO! - Nice to hear that from the old pro BobG!

Exactly!! Specs cannot tell the whole story. We (us older folk :-) live in the midrange, and I like to hear those details, instrument separation, hauntingly live female vocals, etc. I can get this from my modified La Scalas with the current gear I am driving them with.

I sure would like to hear a pair of these and then compare them to the Jubs (after hearing Travis's).

Mike

[BillH2121]

Well, I certainly agree the mid-range is where its at for us middle-aged geezers, especially those of use who played in rock bands in our younger years, But, I do want deeper extension for that added punch of the bass drum, lower registers of string bass, pipe organ, etc. That's why I use a sub with my RF7s. However, if a speaker dug down to that 27or 28 Hz level, I might not have the need for a sub.

[Guest JimG]

I just spent some time listening to the P-38F and P-37F. I can tell you that these speakers can definitely stand on their own without a subwoofer. Personally (and please note that I said "personally"), I cannot necessarily say that about the RF-7 and to me the RF-83 is iffy - it could go either way depending on the type of music you like. Being a drummer, I'm pretty familiar with how things like bass and drums should sound. I like a solid sounding speaker that can really bring out the lower registers. I own RF-7's and I find them to be a little thin on the bottom for me personally. Of course, I have a few subs on hand to supplement them and they see more HT use than music anyways. In regards to tonal balance and things you can't tell from a spec, the Palladium models are much smoother through the midrange. They of course have the advantage of being 3-way designs so there's no network in the mid region, but even beyond that they are in a whole different league than any of the Reference models - which themselves are pretty good speakers.

I would characterize the above mentioned speakers thusly based on my personal experience with each of these speakers: the RF-7 is a really good speaker with great dynamics but I find it to be a bit much when you push them hard (which I tend to do often). They have a tonal balance that tilts upwards a little bit and they can get pretty edgy up top when you whammer on 'em. They rock for home theater though. I think the RF-83 is a better balanced speaker and results in a more refined sound - smoother in the mid, more solid on the bottom and more forgiving and less fatiguing when pushed hard. Any of the three Palladium models will be better than either of these speakers in virtually all aspects. They are smoother, they play higher, they go lower, they play louder, they are amazingly listenable at any volume level, they have dynamics for days. Shall I gush further? Of course, the least expensive one costs about 3x the RF-83. Think of it like you went to a BMW dealer and drove a 335i. You'd likely think it was a pretty amazing car. It does a lot of things fantastically well. However, if you then drove an M5 you'd think it was so much better because it is better in about every way possible. That doesn't change the fact that the 335i is still an amazing car.

Please realize the intended context of all of the above. I consider both the RF-7 and RF-83 to be among the best speakers out there outside of some of the expensive high-end crowd and frankly I think they even hang with a bunch of them. The Palladium models are just simply amazing. I think they stand against about anything at about any price.

Bottom line, spend some time listening to them yourself and decide which one is best suited to your tastes.

Oh and for the drums, my primary kit is a DW collector's series in a custom purple mist lacquer finish. I also collect vintage Ludwig drums of the gold sparkle persuasion. I have about 16 or so of them - enough to make a few kits without duplicating any sizes. Then I have a few old Simmons kits. And a hybrid Roland TD-6 setup with ddrum pro triggers. And a Tama kit for my kids. I've lost count of cymbals. Maybe 20 or so of them. My wife thinks I have too much stuff. I think I am still missing a few things in the collection.

Jim

[Deang]

Considering your background, it's not hard to figure out where the name "Palladium" came from.

[BillH2121]

Ok Jim, you're speaking my language - I was a drummer who made a living playing and teaching music for a lot of years and I'm also a BMW fanatic. I get your analogy perfectly. I think the Mac tubes I use for amp and preamp smooth out the edge of the RF7s when pushed hard but I know what a bass drum should should like live and that's why I use a sub. Yes, the 335 is incredible but the M5 (and my preference the M6) is another level entirely. I so look forward to hearing the Palladium - you have certainly whetted my appetite - now I just need to find a spare $15k to satisfy the hunger.