Digitizing vinyl *shudder*

[jtnfoley]

I know, I know! But I was asked how it could be done so I dug a little.

Does anyone here have experience with this NAD digitizing pre-amp?

http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-amplifiers/PP-3-Digital-Phono-Preamplifier/

Local list price is $179, and MUST bave better ADC performance than those cheesy turntables with direct USB connections.

(Obviously other options exist, such as LL outs right into a PC sound card etc, but ADC quality comes into play again.)

[Mallette]

From a couple of years back. Maybe more than you wanted to know, but you can pick and choose.

Regards,

Dave

I've had a number of emails/PM's in the past week or so asking for information on archiving LP's. Rather than respond individually, I decided to make a post on the matter. I am going to minimize hardware/software, etc. to the bare bones of the process. If there is interest in specfic soundcards, turntables, software, processors, etc. we'll discuss it in the thread as there will be as many opinions on the subject as there are Forum members.

I will open with a bit of a philosophical question: Why would an analog-loving vinyl freak make peace with the digital devil? My answer would be that the more you love records, the more aware of how each moment of sheer listening bliss steals the life from those irreplaceable discs. And, believe me, they are irreplaceable. It may seem that there is an inexhaustible supply of cheap records only you want but the oceans were once rotten with whales, too. Every few years I break a 78 and think: What if that were the last copy? Someday, it will be.

One other thing: No matter how much you think of analog LP's as the most pure form of readily available recorded music, there is a dirty little secret that few will bring up in polite company: It's dynamically compressed, up to 2:1 on pop and at lease 1.2:1 on acoustic/classical. Ugly, but true.

So, a true vinyl lover is a conservationist. How to conserve and enjoy at the same time? Digitize, of course. Make peace with the devil and make him do your bidding. The fact is that most audiophiles have little or no experience with digital outside the realm of the CD or MP3. Not surprising they cling to a "they'll pry my turntable from my cold, dead hands" mindset. Even the few DVD-A's available that offer 24/96 or 24/192 are often not all that well recorded...and at those resolutions it really starts to matter. Some will never be convinced, but the fact is that in a blind test only a very few vinyl lovers would be able to detect the difference between a 24/192 recording of an LP and the same disk played on the same system using the same equipment at the identical level, and most would be quite happy with 24/88.2. The equpment required to do this is quite modest compared to that you already have, and though a 24/192 LP recording is going to take up 4GB or so of space the cost of digital storage is dropping so rapidly that it is hardly a factor anymore. So, don't wait until the last stylus blunts itself on the last record...come over to the dark side today!

Optional steps will be in RED.

1. Get a quality digitizing device.
There are many fine soundcards out there. I own three that excel in their price range and functions:M-Audio Revolution Audiophile USB (Low price and usable with a laptop)Digital Audio Labs Card Deluxe (medium price, highly regarded)ESL WamiRack XL (a bit higher and the only one of these that will do 24/192)

2. Decide on a resolution.
MaxG and similar are likely to require the very best at 24/192. If you are at this level but think you just MIGHT want a CD for the car, then choose 24/176.4 since 176.4/4=44.1 for clean CD downsamples. If you want about 98% of the quality but still have reservations about the space required, go for 24/88.2. Yes, I skipped 24/96. Insufficient audible difference with 24/88.2 and doesn't have the advantage of being cleanly downsampled to 16.44.1 for CDs.

3. Get recording software
Again, lots of choices here but make sure it supports the resolution you choose. There is absolutely no audible difference between one recording software and another. However, there is a vast difference in features, the vast majority of which are non-essential for the purist so it that is you get the cheapest package that supports the resolution you want to use. For me, it's Sound Forge as I work at all resolutions and want some edit and processing functions as well. More on that later.

4. Record
PRE-PROCESSLittle spoken of in the secret councils of the analog brotherhood is that LP's are, in fact, a highly compressed medium. If this were not so, quiet passages would simply disappear into groove/wall noise. Analog engineers constantly "rode gain" to insure that the constricted dynamic limits of the LP medium were not exceeded. In the early seventies, several remedies appeared amongst which the DBX Compander (compressor/expander) emerged as the best and longest lived. I still have an original DBX 117 on line at a friends vacation home. I've almost never listened to records without one of these since about 1975. Properly set they can over double the dynamic range of the LP and virtually eliminate groove noise with no audible side effects, and make themselves inaudible as what little noise they add is also reduced to inaudible by thier own action...neat trick!. (Unconvinced purists may skip out now) So, find yourself a bargain on Ebay and learn to set the perfect expansion level for each disc. Every disc has a "just right" spot you will find with a little practice. Set it and record and you've just combined the best of analog with the best of digital.

5. Store
Doing this once can be fun. The second time it sux. After that, it can be torture. Without going into all the possibilities I am simply going to recommend one product. Buffalo TeraStation. Set to RAID 5 (its default, so ready to plug and play) you get 750 GB of network-attached storage accessible from any computer and most decent media distribution devices on your network for well less than a grand. That's enough space for over 700 LP's at 24/88.2 and will take up a lot less space! When the time comes a drive fails, you just pull it out, replace, and TeraStation will take care of the rest.

6. POST PROCESS
Getting a near-digital dynamic range from an LP and virtually eliminating the groove noise is really neat. Getting rid of the pops at no cost at all to the quality is a bloody miracle. There are a number of softwares to accompish this, but my favorite is the NX package for Sound Forge. Processing is done only once and the result saved. If you don't like it you can undo and reset until you are happy. Hardware devices for this purpose have been designed that work pretty well, but the downside was that the whole signal passed through adding whatever "flavor" the device might have to the sound quality. Most purists would rather have the pops... Software doesn't work like that. It has, and cannot have (since we are in the digital domain) any impact on the signal whatsoever until it gets a match to the signature of the noises its been set to look for. Then it lifts out precisely those digits and replaces them with a composite of what was happening just before and just after. While this sounds like it would be audible since some information has been synthesized, we are talking about tiny fractions of a second here and you'd really have to do some training to ever hear where the pop was. In any event, the action is much nicer than a "POP" in the middle of Miles Davis. SUMMARYIs it all as simple as it sounds? Not really. But neither is setting the azimuth on a cartridge or figuring out values for a crossover. However, it is not rocket science and the results will come closer to "perfect sound forever" than you have ever been.

Now, “let a thousand flowers bloom, a hundred schools of thought contend.” Chairman Mao, 1957.

[JJkizak]

And with Forge you can expand the audio timeline to max, highlight a thump or clump or click, then "Cut" it and play it back and never hear the difference. You can also repair single notes with a pen, reduce hiss & hum, balance each channel level, perform equalization on the fly, cut out needle pre play thump and groan at the beginning and the end, perform clipped restoration and repair tracks with missing sound. You can make a typical vinyl recording pristene but you cannot put the "clout" to it in the bass section as in the latest CD or DVD discs.

JJK

[Mallette]

And with Forge you can expand the audio timeline to max, highlight a thump or clump or click, then "Cut" it and play it back and never hear the difference. You can also repair single notes with a pen, reduce hiss & hum, balance each channel level, perform equalization on the fly, cut out needle pre play thump and groan at the beginning and the end, perform clipped restoration and repair tracks with missing sound. You can make a typical vinyl recording pristene but you cannot put the "clout" to it in the bass section as in the latest CD or DVD discs.

JJK

>You can make a typical vinyl recording pristene but you cannot put the "clout" to it in the bass section as in the latest CD or DVD discs.
That's a job for DBX Impact Restoration. It's a touchy adjustment, but done correctly provides every bit as much "clout" as digital. I did not a DBX with that feature when I wrote the above.

Dave
PS - Also, I'd suggest using Forge "Replace with silence" as opposed to cutting a click or pop. Some folks are uncannily able to hear minute variations in meter. There is a somewhat more involved process for synthesizing a match between the previous and post sounds to an edit (similar to what the old SME bucket brigade pop eliminators used) that can be used to good effect where you are having to lose a bit of signal with your noise. None of this should deter the novice from giving it a try...you'll get good results using the basic stuff above and the rest will come with time, if you care to bother at all with fine points.

[Oblio]

I received one of those 'cheesy' integrated TT for Christmas. Assuming the tonearm/cart combo is not a lathe, I hope to use it to rip some of my vinyl that will never make it to digital otherwise. Perhaps someday I can get a better A/D setup but that would be lower on my wish list than other items (HDTV, Heritage HT, Tubes et. al.)

[jtnfoley]

Interesting thought on the DBX... I've already got an RG Dynamics RG20. Hmmmmmm..... Spend the $179 on a better soundcard or the PP3: decisions decisions...

[jtnfoley]

It'll soon be time to "poop or go blind" as it were... I myself am getting back into vinyl in the form of a Beogram TX from a local charity auction... so I'll need a prestage regardless.

Another digitizing option, again dependent on the qualities of ADCs, is the digital output of my NAD T763. I think a series of experiments are in order.

[Mallette]

You'll do fine. Refer to my guide from time to time. Any specific in there may be replaced with another as long as the outcome is similar. I do not understand the fear of digital from many audiophiles. I know that CD and mp3 did a lot of damage to the concept, but nonetheless the right digital is a perfect image of the original if the parameters and equipment employed are up to the task. I do not believe ANY audiophile could tell the difference between a 24/192 LP transfer correctly done, and that only those with extreme training to hear issues rather than outcomes would be able to discern significant difference at 24/88.2. Of course, there is one savant in every mass who might, but if just music at extreme quality is your interest you will be very happy with the results. And so will your precious, irreplaceable records. The first time one is damaged by some unforeseen catastrophe you will be justified in your efforts...and that WILL happen, even to the most fastidious and cautious audiophile.

Dave

[Audio Flynn]

Thanks David

I saved it on my hard drive this time. One of these days I will get on this...

Not much room for a computer in my room with the TT. Maybe I need a second TT?[8-|]

[synthfreek]

...

[InnerTuber]

Thanks Dave, this is exactly what I needed. I hadn't thought about an expander and the software tips should save some time.

[Mallette]

One thing I don't think I mentioned is this: If you have any doubts about your skill at setting post-processing do it after the fact. That is, digitize your LP's at the target resolution unprocessed. Then, you can experiment with processing at will. Of course, certain things such as denoise via Sound Forge MUST be done post anyway, but DBX can be done after the fact or you can just leave them "au natural" and post on the fly as you listen.

Lots of variables! However, only that which cannot be readily undone is a problem.

Dave

[maxg]

Nice to be singled out - I think.

Anyway - I plan to be doing something like this as soon as I get my new PC (budgetted for this year).

Couple of things I am wondering about:

1. Loseless compression. I have had a play with ripping a CD to WAV and comparing the sound to WMA loseless. As yet I have not been able to tell the difference - on the Promedia 2.0's anyway. AFAIK WMA loseless is only for 44.1/16. Is there a loseless compression that would work for 24/88.2 or higher - seems a shame to store the digital files in something as inefficient as wav files.

2. Solid state storage devices. Just as hard disks continue to fall in price so the availability of large SS devices rises. I am wondering if there would be any benefit to going to Solid state storage as opposed to hard disks. I kinda think the reduction of moving parts must help both reliability and noise - but its a bit outside my area.

Thoughts?

[JJkizak]

I believe they are up to 32 gig on SS storage devices.

JJK

[Mallette]

Nice to be singled out - I think.

Anyway - I plan to be doing something like this as soon as I get my new PC (budgetted for this year).

Couple of things I am wondering about:

1. Loseless compression. I have had a play with ripping a CD to WAV and comparing the sound to WMA loseless. As yet I have not been able to tell the difference - on the Promedia 2.0's anyway. AFAIK WMA loseless is only for 44.1/16. Is there a loseless compression that would work for 24/88.2 or higher - seems a shame to store the digital files in something as inefficient as wav files.

2. Solid state storage devices. Just as hard disks continue to fall in price so the availability of large SS devices rises. I am wondering if there would be any benefit to going to Solid state storage as opposed to hard disks. I kinda think the reduction of moving parts must help both reliability and noise - but its a bit outside my area.

Thoughts?

http://flac.sourceforge.net/

While WAV remains the most universally supported format, if file size is an issue FLAC is the way to go.

If you are using flash memory, it's about the only remaining area where file size is an economic issue. However, it is the most bullet-proof storage medium available, user-tested.

I have a 1 gb Compact Flash chip I purchased in '04 to move files back and forth from the project I did at Fort Lost in the Woods, MO. About a year in I left it in my pocket and the PAW ran it through the wash and dry. I assumed it was toast, but left it out a couple of days and plugged it in...no problem at all. Since then, it's be subjected to high heat, strong magnetic fields, and looks like a piece of junk plastic from endless hours mixing with change in my pocket. It's never lost so much as a bit!

I was just telling the PAW the other day that Flash is likely to be my medium of choice for transfering our home video. 12gb chip=a miniDV cassette and when they are at 5 bucks or so equivalent in cost and completely portable.

Your thinking is good in both areas, Max.

Dave

[maxg]

Good to know - thanks Dave.

This means there is lots of investigating ahead! Got to try to figure out the best and most practical approach. I think the latest apple portable is solid state with a 60 odd Gb disk / memory.

I might well opt for a networked storage solution in addition. Ideally the computer in the living room would be wirelessly connected. Is the bandwidth sufficient to to this? I am fairly sure it would manage wired - but for obvious reasons I would prefer not to have yet more wires in the living room.

I am assuming that compressing the files would help in this regard.

[Mallette]

Check out www.zyxel.com. I am NOT recommending as I have not tried yet but intend to. User reports seem promising and pricing is reasonable. I have issues with wireless in my neighborhood due to the concentration of radio devices of all kinds around here, and like you, wired is always an issue. Homeplug seems to be maturing into the best of both worlds.

However, 802.111g or, even better, n when working well are more than adequate for audio streaming.

[InnerTuber]

H'lo Max

I'm in the middle of the wireless solution. MacBook with disk server. I intend, and am told, that wireless music shall work fine. Need the extreme base tho, not airport express. A few security features might need turned off. I believe, but am not positive yet, that I should be able to do wireless DVD. I looked into FLAC a lot, and would go that route if I had a PC system. It's possible with Apple, but so much easier to use iTunes and uncompressed music. I don't compress anything, although I probably will when I send to the iPod at some point. Storage is fairly cheap so I keep it original.

Regards,

[maxg]

I am going to need to finalize the platfrom first and then make all the detail decisions. It is quite possible I will end up with a Linux based unit of some kind for all I know - but I am going to look at the choices and go from there.

flac looks good just because it will compress 96/24 and others. I think this will offer a significant saving in disk space - but more importantly also in network overhead. It might mean the difference between being able to work with 802.11G and not.

Right now I just dont have all the bits in place - but whatever I choose has to allow me to record whatever record I am playing. That way over the next year or so all my favorites will end up on the system virtually by default.

Ideally I would like the recording and playback systems to be one in the same but actually that wouldn't be a show stopper even if they weren't - not sure that is a good thing or not yet. some dedicated audiofool playback device supporting 32 gb cards perhaps...

[Mallette]

Max:

Before finalizing on a bit rate I'd suggest deciding it you would EVER want to make a CD. From what I've understood of your audio perception over the years I believe you will definitely be able to hear the difference in 24/96 downsampled to 16/44.1 as opposed to 88.2 downsampled. I am not so sure you will be able to tell the difference between 24/88.2 and 24/96. Downsampling must be done by even divisors to avoid dithering, which is a fact, not theory, and audible even to me.

Of course, if you never have intentions of making CD's from LP's, this is a non-issue. Personally, I think the end is nearer than many for CD given the low cost of storage these days. Its basically a matter of those long-awaited universal players. Once we have players that can handle BluRay or better, flash chips, etc and read wav, FLAC, or whatever the issue will go away. My understanding from the OPPO folks is they are looking that way.

Dave