So why Jubilees....

[Guest " "]

"What subs have two 18" woofers and undiminished output down to 16 Hz? Four Epik Conquests - mounted in the corners? Actually, as I recall, the Jub lf bin is a bit bigger in the mouth than the Lascala, isn't it?"

Subs are nice and may even be a good add on for a jubilee, but am I misunderstanding, we're not comparing subs to jubs are we....subs can't reach as high as jubs can.

Maybe I'm off base here.

[Chris A]

Subs are nice and may even be a good add on for a jubilee, but am I misunderstanding, we're not comparing subs to jubs are we....subs can't reach as high as jubs can.

Maybe I'm off base here.

I believe that the subject turned to "if one was going to use a sub with a Jub, then what should we be paying attention to?" Roy mentioned that direct radiator subs usually have a lot of THD, and that paired with the Jub lf bin, it (the sub's THD) was very apparent. He then commented on what you might have to do to match the Jub's performance with a sub (or series of subs). I concur with his assessment.

My comments were directed toward the difficulty in simultaneously attaining real lower bass performance (e.g., at least one octave below the Jub lf bin - ~16 Hz) and low THD required for Jub use. It really begs the question: "do we really need a sub with a Jub, because it degrades the overall performance?" which I still am waiting for someone to chime in on.

I'm a patient guy kind of guy--I can wait until the stars align to ask that question again...

[jwc]

It really begs the question: "do we really need a sub with a Jub, because it degrades the overall performance?" which I still am waiting for someone to chime in on.

Someone...like Roy? or

OK....I've heard them and if I had them I would probably have a sub.....I may not "need" them but my funk might think differently. This isn't derogatory to jubs...but my bass type crave.

jc

[Deang]

Well, the reality is that even as good as the speaker is, it's still only solid down to 40Hz. I don't do funk, but I do movies -- so the idea of a sub is appealing. For strictly two-channel listening, I don't think you need one -- unless you're into stuff with a lot of low end material with keyboards.

Got your email JC, sorry I haven't responded yet. Nice curves.

[Marvel]

Got your email JC, sorry I haven't responded yet. Nice curves.

Did he send you girlie pics or what? [*-)]

[bodcaw boy]

bass is kinda of funny (so is bass the fish). it really depends on what you are used to hearing. alot of people when confronted with clean bass seem to think something is missing . and since most bass systems are direct radiators that can lead one to associate the harmonic content of direct radiators to think "that's the way it is supposed to sound".

in Christ, because of God's grace,

roy

[bodcaw boy]

Subs are nice and may even be a good add on for a jubilee, but am I misunderstanding, we're not comparing subs to jubs are we....subs can't reach as high as jubs can. Maybe I'm off base here.

I believe that the subject turned to "if one was going to use a sub with a Jub, then what should we be paying attention to?" Roy mentioned that direct radiator subs usually have a lot of THD, and that paired with the Jub lf bin, it (the sub's THD) was very apparent. He then commented on what you might have to do to match the Jub's performance with a sub (or series of subs). I concur with his assessment.

My comments were directed toward the difficulty in simultaneously attaining real lower bass performance (e.g., at least one octave below the Jub lf bin - ~16 Hz) and low THD required for Jub use. It really begs the question: "do we really need a sub with a Jub, because it degrades the overall performance?" which I still am waiting for someone to chime in on.

I'm a patient guy kind of guy--I can wait until the stars align to ask that question again...

it depends on the person. you would be surprised to find out just how distortion one will put up with to go low. and might also be surprised how many people like that distortion. i mentioned a way to get close; try to match direct radiating area of the sub to the area of the horn. another way is not to play the sub to the point of creating alot of distortion. paul used to say, if it moves, it distorts.

in Christ, because of God's grace,

roy

[bodcaw boy]

especially if they are chocolate covered

Oh, Roy, I just got this mental picture of a Jubilee constructed entirely of chocolate. Brought a big smile to my face.

Greg

yuuuummmmm.....chocolate.........how do you eat a jub lf made out of chocolate......one note at a time.....

in Christ, because of God's grace,

roy

[Edgar]

alot of people when confronted with clean bass seem to think something is missing

Exactly. If a person was to carry an RTA around with him everywhere he went, he would be amazed at the constant bombardment of low frequency content -- slamming car doors, passing semi-trucks, ventilation systems, etc., etc., etc. -- that goes totally unnoticed because it's just "there". But record those very same sounds and play them back on a system with deep bass capabilities, and the low frequencies sound overblown and unnatural, even though the system measures flat.

The thing that I like about horn-loaded bass is that it does not call attention to itself. It is there, it's not weak by any means, but it blends in with the rest of the audio instead of shouting over it. It's loud when it needs to be loud, and quiet when it needs to be quiet, and it doesn't waste any time transitioning between the two. The only direct radiator systems that I've heard that come even close were those with huge radiating surfaces.

Greg

[Edgar]

yuuuummmmm.....chocolate.........how do you eat a jub lf made out of chocolate......one note at a time.....

Yeah, but which sounds best; dark chocolate, milk chocolate, or white chocolate? Do you use ply-chocolate or medium density fiberchocolate?

Greg

[Chris A]

...paul used to say, if it moves, it distorts...

in Christ, because of God's grace,

roy

Exactly. Now all we need is horn-loaded subwoofer whose driver really doesn't move and plays sub-20Hz with ease. Any ideas--short of making the side of the house a horn? The TRW fan subwoofer moves, doesn't it?

Chris

[DrWho]

Tom Danley has a tapped horn that takes up a very small footprint (the DTS-20) and gets below 20Hz, but you're really limited to about a 2 octave bandwidth. I think Danley is claiming that he's extended it to about 3 octaves with an extra trick, but either is ok for a subwoofer.

I built myself a tapped horn sub a while back mostly as a proof of concept and discovered that the distortion was lowered by about 6dB at normal listening levels. At elevated listening levels, the air velocity through the horn is very fast, which is gonna mean distortion and power compression. I've never heard anyone mention it about the DTS-20, but it must exist... [^o)]

The only other option would be making the wavelength of 20Hz smaller....but I don't think that is gonna happen anytime soon.

[jwc]

Exactly

Neato...so you would "consider" a subwoofer with the jub.

I would prefer a horn loaded subwoofer too. I'm not a die hard for hittin down to 20Hz anyway. I would love to demo 18" bass horns that hit down to 30 Hz but that is hard to do unless I go to a "club"....which is marginally helpful.

I hate to say it but the "club" bass is what I like. I've seen bass horns in clubs that sound awesome but don't know what they were. I would like to stick with All klipsch if i could but seriously doubt a horn sub will be created for the Cinema line (unless they hire Mike Bentz[*-)])

jc

[DrWho]

Hey JC, are you familiar with the LAB Sub? It's a pretty simple DIY project that a lot of ppl go nuts about over at PSW.

EAW also has some killer horn sub offerings too...in fact, one of them digs into the 20's if I recall:
http://www.eaw.com/products/BH822e.html
(It requires 4 of them to get the mouth area needed to go that low in 1/2space, but 1/8 space mounting should have the same effect?) It's "only" about 3x3x4ft.

[Chris A]

Mike (DrWho),

You have a PM.

[Chris A]

...but you're really limited to about a 2 octave bandwidth. I think Danley is claiming that he's extended it to about 3 octaves with an extra trick, but either is ok for a subwoofer.

I built myself a tapped horn sub a while back mostly as a proof of concept and discovered that the distortion was lowered by about 6dB at normal listening levels. At elevated listening levels, the air velocity through the horn is very fast, which is gonna mean distortion and power compression. I've never heard anyone mention it about the DTS-20, but it must exist...

Actually,

What I was intending to say earlier was that a starting rule of thumb might be that the sub should extend the lf down at least one octave from the corner-loaded -3 or -6dB point of the Jub bin. I wasn't looking for a wide bandpass of the sub itself. I don't see the economic advantage of investing in a sub in that only extends the lf down a couple of notes before it is into its own lf cutoff region. Do the Klipsch subs (e.g., KPT-884) suffer from this problem?

The issue is that to actually hear anything below about 25 Hz, it has to be very loud due to Fletcher-Munson effects. I think most people think that they are listening to low bass but really are listening to the second and/or third harmonic - and that is what I think is meant by "club sound". They might feel those frequencies, however.

Addendum: Injecting second or third harmonic content into the bass line electronically is probably not difficult. I think that is the preferred way to get "club sound". In that way, the option exists to turn it off.

I'd be interested in hearing about your DIY tapped horn project results. Is it already posted here somewhere?

Chris

[Chris A]

Neato...so you would "consider" a subwoofer with the jub...

Sorry if a gave the wrong impression - I wouldn't be asking these questions if I weren't interested or considering.

The
real issue is that I don't see much in the way of a sub that is up to
the task and is economically viable, including architectural
real-estate costs. Very few folks here are seriously talking about
buying a sub that extends the Jub lf less than an octave, and injects
significant THD. I feel this is something that is contrary to the main
attractiveness of the Jubilee itself - low THD.

[jwc]

MikeB

I've looked into the specs on all those EAW subs before. They look impressive but so deep. Not a deal breaker but noted. I wish I could hear some of this stuff. Danley labs is pretty close to me....would be cool if I could go there for demo.

Is the lab sub one with the Eminence Lab sub? You got a link?

jc

[colterphoto1]

yuuuummmmm.....chocolate.........how do you eat a jub lf made out of chocolate......one note at a time.....

Yeah, but which sounds best; dark chocolate, milk chocolate, or white chocolate? Do you use ply-chocolate or medium density fiberchocolate?

Greg

Void-Free 11 ply chocolate.

Edgar, very astute observations on environmental LF. Bombardment is the right word for it. A lot of Subs used in music systems are pretty heavy-handed imho.

[colterphoto1]

yuuuummmmm.....chocolate.........how do you eat a jub lf made out of chocolate......one note at a time.....

Yeah, but which sounds best; dark chocolate, milk chocolate, or white chocolate? Do you use ply-chocolate or medium density fiberchocolate?

Greg

Void-Free 11 ply chocolate.

Edgar, very astute observations on environmental LF. Bombardment is the right word for it. A lot of Subs used in music systems are pretty heavy-handed imho.