DrWho Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 The issue is that to actually hear anything below about 25 Hz, it has to be very loud due to Fletcher-Munson effects. I think most people think that they are listening to low bass but really are listening to the second and/or third harmonic - and that is what I think is meant by "club sound". They might feel those frequencies, however. The studio engineer is also experiencing F-M effects and will compensate the recording accordingly. In other words, F-M does not apply to loudspeaker design or choice of loudspeaker. I would argue that it is very possible to distinguish between harmonics and the fundamental, but it does require some ear training....even with the lower frequencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Yea, the LAB sub uses the Eminence Lab12. It looks like PSW is in the middle of a website change, but here's the old page (dunno how long it'll last): http://www.prosoundweb.com/lsp/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 The studio engineer is also experiencing F-M effects and will compensate the recording accordingly. In other words, F-M does not apply to loudspeaker design or choice of loudspeaker. I would argue that it is very possible to distinguish between harmonics and the fundamental, but it does require some ear training....even with the lower frequencies. I don't doubt that mixing engineers do their own equalization - I believe the issue is whether or not the reproducing sub has enough capability to do so, such that the at-home listener can hear it without harmonic distortion taking over the sensory experience. I think many people are actually listening to their subs reproduce the octave-above harmonic, but they have trouble hearing the fundamental because their sub's SPL output levels below 20-25 Hz is lower than threshold on the "F-M" curves for human hearing.I don't doubt that people can be taught to hear those harmonics - I believe that I am aware of those harmonics, especially at levels that I typically hear from many off-the-shelf subs including commercial ones. The real issue is what people commonly perceive as "low bass". Most people do not take the time or effort necessary to train their ears to hear the harmonics. Most college music majors are obliged to, however... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Nice link. I've run by that one too...however, I don't remember as many download options. Also....don't remember those curves. very nice. MikeB Have you heard one of these lab horns? I wonder if laying on their side would work well. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
synthfreek Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Any comments on the Bassault-R by Bagend? FLAT to 18hz, 104db sensitivity with 1watt at 45hz, Four 21" drivers with 4 1/2" voice coils, 310 lbs, 3200 continuous watts, usuable bass down to 8hz & I believe a $6500 or so price tag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Void-Free 11 ply chocolate. What, no "crispies"? Edgar, very astute observations on environmental LF. Bombardment is the right word for it. A lot of Subs used in music systems are pretty heavy-handed imho. Fiddling-around with a KT DN6000 RTA at work one day, I was surprized to find very strong ambient content below 20 Hz. It was the air conditioner. I was never conscious of it. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Is that a bandpass sub? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 MikeB Have you heard one of these lab horns? I wonder if laying on their side would work well. I have not heard them for myself, but there's some guys in my local AES chapter that absolutely love them - and I think I can trust them on that. The biggest problem they have is that the distortion is so low that there are very few audible signs before you smoke a VC. Then, because of the dual driver loading, when one dies, the other one gets unloaded and will usually bottom out and destroy itself too. [] At least that's what the word on the street is... I don't think I would place them on their side simply because it will introduce cone sag. I haven't run through the numbers to see if it's ok, but I would still feel uncomfortable about it since they weren't designed for vertical orientation. It probably wouldn't be too hard to rotate the orientation of the drivers at the throat if you really wanted them on their side since they're a DIY build anyway. Though at that point you might as well do a whole new design... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Any comments on the Bassault-R by Bagend? FLAT to 18hz, 104db sensitivity with 1watt at 45hz, Four 21" drivers with 4 1/2" voice coils, 310 lbs, 3200 continuous watts, usuable bass down to 8hz & I believe a $6500 or so price tag. One unit has more than enough driver area to match two Jubs and it is very compact considering the size of its drivers, but not so compact in terms of WAF--40"x36"x40"--which will get your attention. I'm not sure how to integrate into a room in those proportions. [The Danley DTS-20 looks better from a room integratability standpoint but it doesn't have the driver area, or a competitive price when used in pairs to match mouth areas. I also don't see THD numbers for the Danley.]Actually, the price is good when stacked up against multiple Epik Conquests, although it's higher than I would like to see. I haven't seen any tests to understand its output and THD. They boast about their phase response a bit--it looks like an acoustic suspension (closed box) system. For home use, this would be great, but for commercial use, I would think internal heating would be an issue. I don't see a lot of home enthusiasts talking about them. Do you know anyone that owns one? Addendum: I would also consider the Bag End Quartz (4x18" woofers) at less cost - though not greatly smaller than the Bassault-R. Both units need amplifiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
synthfreek Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 I only know of some recording engineers who use these Bagends. One guy does a lot of work with sub 20hz material and he swears by them. I only posted their most extreme sub but I see you poked around and have seen some of their other models. They're pretty highly regarded for both their live pa applications and for LFE monitoring in studios. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Any comments on the Bassault-R by Bagend? FLAT to 18hz, 104db sensitivity with 1watt at 45hz, Four 21" drivers with 4 1/2" voice coils, 310 lbs, 3200 continuous watts, usuable bass down to 8hz & I believe a $6500 or so price tag. 18hz to 50hz response range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
consistent Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Does anyone have a side by side Khorn v Jubilee response curve? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Does anyone have a side by side Khorn v Jubilee response curve? Cheers The bass bins only - free response (i.e., no corners or floor).khjub.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Interesting. Here's my HORNRESP models of KHorn (black) and Jubilee (gray), 4p (anechoic), compared with the measurements. Horizontal scales are approximately the same; vertical scales very different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Interesting. Here's my HORNRESP models of KHorn (black) and Jubilee (gray), 4π (anechoic), compared with the measurements. Horizontal scales are approximately the same; vertical scales very different. I haven't dug into the HORNRESP model to understand what it is modeling and what assumptions it is making. I have seen that real horns have response that is typically outside of the passband predicted in the models. I'll leave those arguments to the pundits online here. The first curve posted in the pdf file above is said to be anechoic measurements for both lf bins tested separately in the Klipsch chamber and provided to the forum by Mr. Roy Delgado. I don't remember the thread name or the date, however. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I haven't dug into the HORNRESP model to understand what it is modeling and what assumptions it is making. I have seen that real horns have response that is typically outside of the passband predicted in the models. I'll leave those arguments to the pundits online here. The model seems to do reasonably well between about 70 Hz and about 400 Hz. Below that, perhaps system resonances come into play. Above that, perhaps the effects of horn folding come into play. That's just conjecture on my part. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Some band guys used Bag End PA speakers back in the day of my college years. They needed LOTS of power...were VERY heavy to lift.. but did sound like a wonderful stereo speaker on steroids! In other words, very good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I haven't dug into the HORNRESP model to understand what it is modeling and what assumptions it is making. I have seen that real horns have response that is typically outside of the passband predicted in the models. I'll leave those arguments to the pundits online here.The model seems to do reasonably well between about 70 Hz and about 400 Hz. Below that, perhaps system resonances come into play. Above that, perhaps the effects of horn folding come into play. That's just conjecture on my part. The model assumes a straight horn and is outputting the power response of the system - and in that regard should be considered fairly accurate. The Klipsch anechoic chamber is only good to 200Hz, which means you get some boundary gains and phase cancellation (gradually getting worse as you go lower in frequency). So it's not entirely a full space measurement - probably closer to half space with some cancellations going on. The measurement from Klipsch, however, is an on-axis measurement. If you set Hornresp to show the on-axis response instead of the power response, then I think you will get better correlation in the HF. We all know that the polars are narrower in that frequency range which will bring up the on-axis response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrinkles Posted February 19, 2008 Author Share Posted February 19, 2008 Well Guys and Gals, I did not blow my budget, at least not totally. I ordered the 402 horns with K69 drivers and ordered the the Crown XTI1000 amps. The horns will go on top of my LaScalas. So, for now at least, JubScalas for me. Should this not live up to my expectations, then the Jubilee bass bins will be next. Thanks for all your valuable input. This website is really great. Thanks Everyone, Wrinkles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 hey winkles, your order went across my desk today. so it shouldn't be too much longer. let me know if you need anything or if i can help out. in Christ, because of God's grace, roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.