I Compared 4 Amps (Solid State, Push Pull x 2 and SET 300B Tube) and 4 Speakers (K Horns, Heresy Is and IIs and WF-34s)

[nola]

***EDITED**** reposted 10/13/2008 am, now with Firefox, on a PC (not Safari PC or Mac).

Sorry, this is long and detailed for anybody that is interested.

I compared 4 amps (McIntosh 2 x MC240; DIY 300B SET, and Outlaw 750 SS) and 4 speaker sets (K horns, Heresy Is and IIs, WF-34).

Testing
conditions: Barry White, Steely Dan Aja, Supertramp on vinyl. CDs and
Krall DVD, mostly old. Main room is 17 x 40 x 14. Subs / rears / center
were off /not used. Speakers were 7-15 ft apart. I was about 6 feet
behind on the floor while listening. Apt was chunk full of boxes due to
perpetual repairs post Hurricanes.

Day 1: Bellari
VP-129 hooked directly into Y splitter and 2 amps connected at a time.
(Don't own 3 way splitter). Right channel (only) was played into each
of the tested speakers. Only the right channel of any amp was ever used
(nothing political). For CDs/DVDs, OPPO 981 was similarly hooked up
directly into splitter. It has a volume control allowing me to bypass
pre amp / processor. Here, I found the left channel was better for
testing, go figure.....

End
of day 2: CDs / DVDs, to DVD R / L . Phono, VP-129 to video 5 R/L
Outlaw 990 Preamp / processor. Therefore not directly to amps. Y
splitter from pre amp output to form 2 output RCA cables, 1 to each
tested amp. 990 output in stereo mode, sub off. Bellari volume 2/3 -
3/4 max. 990 volume -5 to +2 (max).

Elton John in Oz CD, Krall DVD, Dr.John CD,
Tommy-from The Who CD. On OPPO: stereo setting (not 5.1), and sub-No.

1. The SET, loaned to me by a tube-o-phile in New Orleans was
DIY,
under 1K in parts, and was slightly better than the MC240s (which I
own) in higher pitched sounds. Overall, I did not consider the
differences to be great. Even with completely different tubes, the
MC240s sounded similar. (And yes, I expect comments about the tubes,
condition, etc. That's expected and wanted ). Never heard a big
diff. in the bass. But rarely got over 90 dB, since I bypassed my
preamp / processor unit. Also, only 1 speaker played at a time on later
tests. 1st tests were in dual mono-and was a mistake- as I could not
hear diffs clearly.

2. Speakers: K horns, Heresy Is - 30 yrs old, H IIs - 20 yrs old, and
WF-34 (only toted 1 of them out to the main room), a few months old.
All caps, x overs, etc are original. (HII issue was a broken wire in
the x over and I soldered it back. Backs of HIIs are loose, but no
rattle heard.) 1 HII had seriously less treble
than any other speaker, though some was there; particularly notable
during brush drums ?snares on Dianna Krall DVD. These passages were the
best at
noting SET vs PP differences. Good HII was less "high" and a bit
bass-ier than HIs. I preferred the overall sound of HI vs HII. Problem
with WF-34 comparison, it was less efficient so not as load on SPL
meter; did not find vol cntl adjuster in time. Also smaller "presence"
of sound. I think due to smaller size vs
Heresys. Overall, did ok, but I preferred HIs, and plan to put them in
the bedroom, in place of the 34s, if I can ever find the space.These
34s were obtained at the Pilgrimmage, and I was told that although
scratched, they were sonically good.

Maybe
due to my hearing, the left speaker was always better! Either
that or bizarre room nodes. Mind you, with construction here, quite
possible; and rt K horn was almost "buried".
On the vinyl, day 1, I always listened to 2 speakers, each driven by a
diff
amp, at the same time. Dual mono.
Lots of amp, speaker switching. Final testing: each amp was separately
tested into the left HI, HII, and 34 (last tests with LT K horn, end of
day 2 only). Only DVD/CDs used by
this point, day 1. (Hey, I was at it for 2 days). K horns, 1st tests,
were
always listened to in dual mono, never with A / B ing diff amps in the
same Khorn. I think that was a big mistake.
End of day 2: added Outlaw 750, 5 x 165 solid state amp, about 7 yrs
old. Also, retested vinyl and added Billy Joel Storm Front old CD and
retried Lt K horn.

Findings: differences between speakers of the same type, when tested 1
speaker at a time, were greater than differences between amps!!! (Only 1 WF 34 was tested, yup, on the left,)

Both
sets of Heresys, when played 1 speaker at a time would distort / clip
and sound awful when over 90 dB on the SPL (not noted on vinyl nor
Krall, as never got that loud). Dr. John CD was almost unbearable. Elton John Live in Oz when loud was no gift either.
However, Billy Joel was fine.

Maybe
I need new caps and / or full new X overs....I bought the 2nd MC240
intending to bi amp the K horns. I talked to Popbumper about this.

I preferred the HIs vs HIIs. Maybe crossover
and drivers were designed to yield a somewhat different sound. I bought
my used / abused HIIs recently. They were cheap, but busted. As noted, 1 still "ain't
right". However, as they are only intended to be surrounds, they are ok
for that purpose, even now. I would only pay a small premium for an HI
over an HII, not over $100 on the used market. I do not think I have
heard an H III.
-only 1 WP-34 was toted out.

After
Katrina, I briefly compared the Outlaw 750 SS (solid state) amp to the
first McIntosh Push Pull tube amp. I found (in my room, with my
speakers, hearing, etc., that the MC240 was only somewhat better some
of the time with some music. This weekend, it was virtually a dead
heat, with a slight edge to SET. I had to use an old Radio Shack volume
control to lower the volume of the SS amp as it ran about 3-6 dB louder
than the tubes. The vol cntl was at 1 (out of 10). The single K horn
was able to hit about 95 dB with Billy Joel. The Heresy I maxed out
around 92, the 34 never exceeded 90 dB. Whatever diffs I heard 2 yrs
ago were not as obvious tonight in comparing SS to SET and PP amps.

Take
home lessons so far: Assuming my speakers are in reasonable shape
(based on all results being reproduced to various degrees in the 34s),
the used Outlaw 990 amp was a steal at +/- $650. Yup, the tubes were a
bit better-sometimes-and at a much higher cost. MC240s go upwards of
1.5K and DIY 300s could run $750 just for ave parts and tubes. I will
try to figure out the tubes used if anyone is interested. I would love
to try this again, on a more limited basis, at somebody else's place.Thanks to the New Orleans area tube users

The
OPPO DVD player L R stereo plugs were attached to a 2 for 1
"Y" splitter and then run to each of 2 amps to be tested. I also
checked signals when plugged directly into the MC240, without splitter.
Volume was down a touch after splitting. OPPO offers volume of 0-20,
17ish often used. I think one problem, which I have never noted running
5.1 w subs, is that at vol of 19 or 20-which I always have the OPPO set to-max
vol, sounds bad in regular stereo mode. At the end of day 2, all inputs
went to the 990, then out to the amps. No appreciable diffs. I did not
A/B for use of the 990 colorizing/changing the sound, etc.

Mid 80s on SPL were common max vols on the HI. MC240s have a dial Gain knob. I had to
move it from 12:00 noon, usual position, down to about 10:00, as the
older MC240 was "stronger" than the SET. SPLs from the 2 MC240s were
usually within 3 dB of each other (older one always louder), fast or
slow SPL setting with C response. So my older 240 always had to be
turned down a bit during testing. I never bothered with testing the
newer 240 vs the SET, as the 240s were so close sonically, once the SPLs were the same.
I had spoken with Popbumper by email and phone and Bob Crites via
email, about my recently purchased HII. They were great. Someone in
town, maybe a few folks can build their own speakers and I will discuss
these issues with them. Due to conferences and being on call, I
probably will not address these issues for a while.

I think you are
probably correct about the caps. I will ask locally about completely
new x overs, but thoughts from Forum members are welcome. Never thought
about the diaphragms-they get pricey too, esp on the HIs (when I called
Klipsch after buying the HIIs). One question, the sound from some CDs also got nasty on
the new WF 34.. Just not as bad, maybe because they could not play
as loud as they are less efficient. Also, I listened to 1 speaker at a
time, perhaps some of the nasties would cancel in stereo. Oh well, more
testing to do-Not, I am beat after 2 days of this.

I
wanted to post because there is so little info on
comparing amps, Push Pull, SET, solid state. We have a local tube club,
but I never even knew about it until about a month ago. I found out
about it after posting on Bottlehead. I thought about buying a SET amp,
but with the market in a tizzy, held back. Because virtually every
piece of equipment has backers and flamers, I wanted to hear an SET
before taking the plunge. Since I already have 2 MC240s (originally
wanted to bi amp with the 2nd), I am unlikely to buy anything else now,
unless rolling the tubes makes a bigger difference. My SS amp did very
well. I am a bit curious as to why its outlow SPL was about 6dB above
the tubes? If I was new to
tubes, I would definitely consider SET vs PP. In the end, the decision
would be based on reviews from the net and price. Realistically, how
many of us can actually A /B these things the way I have been fortunate
enough to do. I just hope I have performed a fair, even if flawed test.
Perhaps in 2009, after working on the speakers, I might try this again,
on a more limited basis. Thanks to the New Orleans tube group buddy
who lent me his 300B amp, and to Canyonman for his kind offer of listening and comparing at his place :)

My friend who lent me the SET might let me roll some tubes too.
More to follow.

[Marvel]

This is really hard to follow without having paragraph breaks, but...

Both sets of Heresys, when played 1 speaker at a time would distort / clip and sound awful when over 90 dB on the SPL (not noted on vinyl nor Krall, as never got that loud).

This is an amp/preamp issue and not the speaker's problem. They could ALL need new caps and diaphragms, but the H and HII will both easily do over 90 db and play cleanly. Depending on how the passive splitting is going on, you could be degrading the signal.

Bruce

[nola]

***EDITED*****

I had the breaks in the original, but they did not upload. Maybe due to using safari browser too. I will try to redo tomorrow from work; PC Firefox.

[Cut-Throat]

Post Deleted.

[HPower]

Hey Nola,

I am guess you are a Mac user... we are the best, aren't we []

I got around the "run-on" by using Firefox as the browser on my iMac.[H]

[nola]

******EDITED*******

Pls see 1st post

[jcmusic]

Hey nola if you really want to hear an SET amp you have an invitaion to my house in Terrytown, k-horns, cornwall II's and forte II's. I also have a vintage PP system if you want to listen to that as well.

Jay

[Guest " "]

Wow, you been busy...comparing different speakers while also comparing different amps.

[nola]

Yup, was quite busy comparing this weekend. Reason: thinking about an SET amp rather Push-Pull, and to check the condition off my old speakers.

Once life settles down a bit, I might recap one of the x overs and retest. Will likely do one of the Heresy's first due to small size. X over or diaphragm could be the issue with the hard lucK H II. Going to contact Canyonman too

[SilverSport]

thanks for sharing...

Bill

[jacksonbart]

Judging by your avatar, you’re living in the state of denial.

[Cut-Throat]

Judging by your avatar, you’re living in the state of denial.

No, that would be De Nile.

[Colin]

thanks for the detialed report

[nola]

Hehehe.....

Amy Unger took a pic of me next to the cut a way K horn during the Pilgrimmage. But after being up all night at Klipsch Indy Fan's awesome place, I looked - and felt -10 yrs older (bags under my eyes, etc). So couldn't use that pic on the avatar. I kinda liked the pic of me and the (real) old lady from a trip to Berlin lasr winter. Nefertete, Nofrete, etc on the spelling. In a Berlin museum, near museum island. As a former Art History major and wanna be architect, one of my favorite museums is nearby, the Pergamon Museum. Yrs ago she was at the Charlottenburg Palace, but not anymore.

Hey, I am a classy guy.....

People on this and other Forums have been a tremendous help to me. Wanted to give something back.

Silversport, I will be in the Big Windy after Thanksgiving for the RSNA. If you are dntn to Wrigleyville, lets grab a beer.....

Well, have chatted with some folks about the tests. Conclusions so far: 20-30 yr old Heritage speakers likely need some new caps, possibly fully new x overs. Diaphragms and drivers might also be culprits. I really expected to hear significant differences betwen the amps, and I was very surprised that I did not. I remain unclear as to why the amps also sounded alike on the new WF-34. As my sinuses were not clogged, I think my hearing was ok. I am the first to admit that I usually did not hear as a great a difference in speakers / amps, etc., than that reported by others. This was true even yrs ago. I intend to pursue things further and will likely report back with some new tests in 2009 once speakers have been worked on, but don't expect any testing around Mardi Gras season - lasts for weeks. I look forward to checking my MC240s on other rigs locally as able.I would also appreciate comments from those who are into x over building.