nola Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 ***EDITED**** reposted 10/13/2008 am, now with Firefox, on a PC (not Safari PC or Mac). Sorry, this is long and detailed for anybody that is interested. I compared 4 amps (McIntosh 2 x MC240; DIY 300B SET, and Outlaw 750 SS) and 4 speaker sets (K horns, Heresy Is and IIs, WF-34). Testingconditions: Barry White, Steely Dan Aja, Supertramp on vinyl. CDs andKrall DVD, mostly old. Main room is 17 x 40 x 14. Subs / rears / centerwere off /not used. Speakers were 7-15 ft apart. I was about 6 feetbehind on the floor while listening. Apt was chunk full of boxes due toperpetual repairs post Hurricanes. Day 1: BellariVP-129 hooked directly into Y splitter and 2 amps connected at a time.(Don't own 3 way splitter). Right channel (only) was played into eachof the tested speakers. Only the right channel of any amp was ever used(nothing political). For CDs/DVDs, OPPO 981 was similarly hooked updirectly into splitter. It has a volume control allowing me to bypasspre amp / processor. Here, I found the left channel was better fortesting, go figure..... Endof day 2: CDs / DVDs, to DVD R / L . Phono, VP-129 to video 5 R/LOutlaw 990 Preamp / processor. Therefore not directly to amps. Ysplitter from pre amp output to form 2 output RCA cables, 1 to eachtested amp. 990 output in stereo mode, sub off. Bellari volume 2/3 -3/4 max. 990 volume -5 to +2 (max). Elton John in Oz CD, Krall DVD, Dr.John CD,Tommy-from The Who CD. On OPPO: stereo setting (not 5.1), and sub-No. 1. The SET, loaned to me by a tube-o-phile in New Orleans wasDIY,under 1K in parts, and was slightly better than the MC240s (which Iown) in higher pitched sounds. Overall, I did not consider thedifferences to be great. Even with completely different tubes, theMC240s sounded similar. (And yes, I expect comments about the tubes,condition, etc. That's expected and wanted ). Never heard a bigdiff. in the bass. But rarely got over 90 dB, since I bypassed mypreamp / processor unit. Also, only 1 speaker played at a time on latertests. 1st tests were in dual mono-and was a mistake- as I could nothear diffs clearly. 2. Speakers: K horns, Heresy Is - 30 yrs old, H IIs - 20 yrs old, andWF-34 (only toted 1 of them out to the main room), a few months old.All caps, x overs, etc are original. (HII issue was a broken wire inthe x over and I soldered it back. Backs of HIIs are loose, but norattle heard.) 1 HII had seriously less treblethan any other speaker, though some was there; particularly notableduring brush drums ?snares on Dianna Krall DVD. These passages were thebest atnoting SET vs PP differences. Good HII was less "high" and a bitbass-ier than HIs. I preferred the overall sound of HI vs HII. Problemwith WF-34 comparison, it was less efficient so not as load on SPLmeter; did not find vol cntl adjuster in time. Also smaller "presence"of sound. I think due to smaller size vsHeresys. Overall, did ok, but I preferred HIs, and plan to put them inthe bedroom, in place of the 34s, if I can ever find the space.These34s were obtained at the Pilgrimmage, and I was told that althoughscratched, they were sonically good. Maybedue to my hearing, the left speaker was always better! Eitherthat or bizarre room nodes. Mind you, with construction here, quitepossible; and rt K horn was almost "buried".On the vinyl, day 1, I always listened to 2 speakers, each driven by adiffamp, at the same time. Dual mono.Lots of amp, speaker switching. Final testing: each amp was separatelytested into the left HI, HII, and 34 (last tests with LT K horn, end ofday 2 only). Only DVD/CDs used bythis point, day 1. (Hey, I was at it for 2 days). K horns, 1st tests,werealways listened to in dual mono, never with A / B ing diff amps in thesame Khorn. I think that was a big mistake.End of day 2: added Outlaw 750, 5 x 165 solid state amp, about 7 yrsold. Also, retested vinyl and added Billy Joel Storm Front old CD andretried Lt K horn. Findings: differences between speakers of the same type, when tested 1speaker at a time, were greater than differences between amps!!! (Only 1 WF 34 was tested, yup, on the left,) Bothsets of Heresys, when played 1 speaker at a time would distort / clipand sound awful when over 90 dB on the SPL (not noted on vinyl norKrall, as never got that loud). Dr. John CD was almost unbearable. Elton John Live in Oz when loud was no gift either.However, Billy Joel was fine. MaybeI need new caps and / or full new X overs....I bought the 2nd MC240intending to bi amp the K horns. I talked to Popbumper about this. I preferred the HIs vs HIIs. Maybe crossoverand drivers were designed to yield a somewhat different sound. I boughtmy used / abused HIIs recently. They were cheap, but busted. As noted, 1 still "ain'tright". However, as they are only intended to be surrounds, they are okfor that purpose, even now. I would only pay a small premium for an HIover an HII, not over $100 on the used market. I do not think I haveheard an H III.-only 1 WP-34 was toted out. AfterKatrina, I briefly compared the Outlaw 750 SS (solid state) amp to thefirst McIntosh Push Pull tube amp. I found (in my room, with myspeakers, hearing, etc., that the MC240 was only somewhat better someof the time with some music. This weekend, it was virtually a deadheat, with a slight edge to SET. I had to use an old Radio Shack volumecontrol to lower the volume of the SS amp as it ran about 3-6 dB louderthan the tubes. The vol cntl was at 1 (out of 10). The single K hornwas able to hit about 95 dB with Billy Joel. The Heresy I maxed outaround 92, the 34 never exceeded 90 dB. Whatever diffs I heard 2 yrsago were not as obvious tonight in comparing SS to SET and PP amps. Takehome lessons so far: Assuming my speakers are in reasonable shape(based on all results being reproduced to various degrees in the 34s),the used Outlaw 990 amp was a steal at +/- $650. Yup, the tubes were abit better-sometimes-and at a much higher cost. MC240s go upwards of1.5K and DIY 300s could run $750 just for ave parts and tubes. I willtry to figure out the tubes used if anyone is interested. I would loveto try this again, on a more limited basis, at somebody else's place.Thanks to the New Orleans area tube users TheOPPO DVD player L R stereo plugs were attached to a 2 for 1"Y" splitter and then run to each of 2 amps to be tested. I alsochecked signals when plugged directly into the MC240, without splitter.Volume was down a touch after splitting. OPPO offers volume of 0-20,17ish often used. I think one problem, which I have never noted running5.1 w subs, is that at vol of 19 or 20-which I always have the OPPO set to-maxvol, sounds bad in regular stereo mode. At the end of day 2, all inputswent to the 990, then out to the amps. No appreciable diffs. I did notA/B for use of the 990 colorizing/changing the sound, etc. Mid 80s on SPL were common max vols on the HI. MC240s have a dial Gain knob. I had tomove it from 12:00 noon, usual position, down to about 10:00, as theolder MC240 was "stronger" than the SET. SPLs from the 2 MC240s wereusually within 3 dB of each other (older one always louder), fast orslow SPL setting with C response. So my older 240 always had to beturned down a bit during testing. I never bothered with testing thenewer 240 vs the SET, as the 240s were so close sonically, once the SPLs were the same.I had spoken with Popbumper by email and phone and Bob Crites viaemail, about my recently purchased HII. They were great. Someone intown, maybe a few folks can build their own speakers and I will discussthese issues with them. Due to conferences and being on call, Iprobably will not address these issues for a while. I think you areprobably correct about the caps. I will ask locally about completelynew x overs, but thoughts from Forum members are welcome. Never thoughtabout the diaphragms-they get pricey too, esp on the HIs (when I calledKlipsch after buying the HIIs). One question, the sound from some CDs also got nasty onthe new WF 34.. Just not as bad, maybe because they could not playas loud as they are less efficient. Also, I listened to 1 speaker at atime, perhaps some of the nasties would cancel in stereo. Oh well, moretesting to do-Not, I am beat after 2 days of this. Iwanted to post because there is so little info oncomparing amps, Push Pull, SET, solid state. We have a local tube club,but I never even knew about it until about a month ago. I found outabout it after posting on Bottlehead. I thought about buying a SET amp,but with the market in a tizzy, held back. Because virtually everypiece of equipment has backers and flamers, I wanted to hear an SETbefore taking the plunge. Since I already have 2 MC240s (originallywanted to bi amp with the 2nd), I am unlikely to buy anything else now,unless rolling the tubes makes a bigger difference. My SS amp did verywell. I am a bit curious as to why its outlow SPL was about 6dB abovethe tubes? If I was new totubes, I would definitely consider SET vs PP. In the end, the decisionwould be based on reviews from the net and price. Realistically, howmany of us can actually A /B these things the way I have been fortunateenough to do. I just hope I have performed a fair, even if flawed test.Perhaps in 2009, after working on the speakers, I might try this again,on a more limited basis. Thanks to the New Orleans tube group buddywho lent me his 300B amp, and to Canyonman for his kind offer of listening and comparing at his place :) My friend who lent me the SET might let me roll some tubes too.More to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 This is really hard to follow without having paragraph breaks, but... Both sets of Heresys, when played 1 speaker at a time would distort / clip and sound awful when over 90 dB on the SPL (not noted on vinyl nor Krall, as never got that loud). This is an amp/preamp issue and not the speaker's problem. They could ALL need new caps and diaphragms, but the H and HII will both easily do over 90 db and play cleanly. Depending on how the passive splitting is going on, you could be degrading the signal. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nola Posted October 12, 2008 Author Share Posted October 12, 2008 ***EDITED***** I had the breaks in the original, but they did not upload. Maybe due to using safari browser too. I will try to redo tomorrow from work; PC Firefox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Post Deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HPower Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Hey Nola, I am guess you are a Mac user... we are the best, aren't we [] I got around the "run-on" by using Firefox as the browser on my iMac.[H] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nola Posted October 12, 2008 Author Share Posted October 12, 2008 ******EDITED******* Pls see 1st post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Hey nola if you really want to hear an SET amp you have an invitaion to my house in Terrytown, k-horns, cornwall II's and forte II's. I also have a vintage PP system if you want to listen to that as well. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Wow, you been busy...comparing different speakers while also comparing different amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nola Posted October 13, 2008 Author Share Posted October 13, 2008 Yup, was quite busy comparing this weekend. Reason: thinking about an SET amp rather Push-Pull, and to check the condition off my old speakers. Once life settles down a bit, I might recap one of the x overs and retest. Will likely do one of the Heresy's first due to small size. X over or diaphragm could be the issue with the hard lucK H II. Going to contact Canyonman too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 thanks for sharing... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Judging by your avatar, you’re living in the state of denial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Judging by your avatar, you’re living in the state of denial. No, that would be De Nile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 thanks for the detialed report Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nola Posted October 14, 2008 Author Share Posted October 14, 2008 Hehehe..... Amy Unger took a pic of me next to the cut a way K horn during the Pilgrimmage. But after being up all night at Klipsch Indy Fan's awesome place, I looked - and felt -10 yrs older (bags under my eyes, etc). So couldn't use that pic on the avatar. I kinda liked the pic of me and the (real) old lady from a trip to Berlin lasr winter. Nefertete, Nofrete, etc on the spelling. In a Berlin museum, near museum island. As a former Art History major and wanna be architect, one of my favorite museums is nearby, the Pergamon Museum. Yrs ago she was at the Charlottenburg Palace, but not anymore. Hey, I am a classy guy..... People on this and other Forums have been a tremendous help to me. Wanted to give something back. Silversport, I will be in the Big Windy after Thanksgiving for the RSNA. If you are dntn to Wrigleyville, lets grab a beer..... Well, have chatted with some folks about the tests. Conclusions so far: 20-30 yr old Heritage speakers likely need some new caps, possibly fully new x overs. Diaphragms and drivers might also be culprits. I really expected to hear significant differences betwen the amps, and I was very surprised that I did not. I remain unclear as to why the amps also sounded alike on the new WF-34. As my sinuses were not clogged, I think my hearing was ok. I am the first to admit that I usually did not hear as a great a difference in speakers / amps, etc., than that reported by others. This was true even yrs ago. I intend to pursue things further and will likely report back with some new tests in 2009 once speakers have been worked on, but don't expect any testing around Mardi Gras season - lasts for weeks. I look forward to checking my MC240s on other rigs locally as able.I would also appreciate comments from those who are into x over building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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