Way Off Topic: Any 1911 Shooters on the Forum?

[jacksonbart]

with everyone owning a gun on this forum I am going to need to start sporting a bullet proof vest full time, just please don't shoot me in the head or groin.

AWwww Damnnnit!!! I was planning on shooting you in the "TOP NOTCH"!!!

Roger

Not sure which is worse, getting shot in the top notch or the two bottom notches... Any way happy holidays. keep em holstered, hope you never need to draw em. I own a .17 crossman to keep the squirrels under control. Not against guns, just not responsible enough to own a real one. Support your local police is my advice.

[twistedcrankcammer]

9MM gets a black eye from a lot of people BUT in modern loadings especially...the 9MM is no slouch...some who plan for a battle, like the capacity idea...I lean more to the bigger hole in lets more blood out school but would never feel undergunned with "only" a 9MM...many believe that the 9MM is ballistically superior to the .38 special...Colt Government .45ACP with two extra mags may be 22 roundsand a GLOCK 17 with the same two extra mags might be 52...

Bill

Bill,

I'm sorry but I need a PWK BS button. 9mm balistically superior to a .38 special, in what parralel universe is that?? Same bullit, more powder, not complicated.

FACT; I remember when local law enforcement switched from wheel guns to the 9mm. Boy was there some crooked kick back BS in that!! No lie, local Police trainer that was supposed to train everyone else on the "NEW" semi, was practicing his quick draw in the house, no clip, but forgot to clear the pipe. Shot his wife in the shower through the wall and in her spine. She is paralized for life and he since devorced her.

FACt; I belong to two local gun clubs. Local sherifs department was kicked off of one when in an investigation it was proven that they were the ones shooting at trains as they passed near the propperty.

FACT; First month local law enforcement had the new semis, an officer unloaded his 14 rounds down an alley at a suspect and missed the suspect.

FACT; If you can't hit them with one, you don't need 14.

Law enforcement should have forced weekly quallifying and minimum number of rounds they MUST shoot, just like German army in WWII.

You want to put them down with a .38, seat a semi wad cutter in backwards sitting on a hot load and let me see you balistically match the damage that will do with a 9mm.

Roger

[twistedcrankcammer]

A high capacity 9mm with some good "hot" ammunition will do quite a fine job.....

I assume you would not make such a statement without direct experience??

How many people have you killed with a 9mm vs: other calibers such as the .45 ACP??

Roger

[twistedcrankcammer]

with everyone owning a gun on this forum I am going to need to start sporting a bullet proof vest full time, just please don't shoot me in the head or groin.

AWwww Damnnnit!!! I was planning on shooting you in the "TOP NOTCH"!!!

Roger

Not sure which is worse, getting shot in the top notch or the two bottom notches... Any way happy holidays. keep em holstered, hope you never need to draw em. I own a .17 crossman to keep the squirrels under control. Not against guns, just not responsible enough to own a real one. Support your local police is my advice.

Would that be a .177 caliber??

Just yanking your chain, but I suggest you read my post on local law enforcemet.

I have a few other eye opening stories I could tell about local law enforcement, and I have a buddy on local State Highway patrol, a buddy on the local county sherifs swat team, and a buddy on the local city police as well, and I am alot more proficient than all three.

Roger

[HarryO]

My opinion, but the 9mm is a womens wepon. I had a good friend that died about 8 years back when he was 74 years old. Al was the one who taught me to reload for accuracy. Al was a master sergant in the army and was in on the battle of the buldge, fighting in hedge rows all the way up through the surrender of germany. Al picked up a Thompson sub machine gun early in the war, and through away his M-1 30 carbine. He got the Thomson off of a dead English officer, as the US gave them to the Brits, but he couldn't get one as a sergant. Al told many stories of guys getting up and still fighting with several round of 9mm Parabelum in them, but he said he never saw anyone get up after being hit with a >45.

As for Gun MNFRGs. I wouldn't have an S&W shoved up myARS sideways with the stance they have taken with the gun grabber group.

Ruger and Tarus have the absolute best waranties in the country PERIOD.

I have a friend with one of the Tarus 9mm that was made on the old Bereatta tooling. New shooter, bought Gun Show reloads. Some were double charged compressed loads and others were empty primered brass. He didn't know any better and ended up with a stuck slide on a bulged barrel with 8 rings in the bore. Taurus replaced everything damaged with all new parts, no questions asked. That friend has a buddy that bought the blued Bereta at the same time and they both went shooting at the same time. He screwed up the Beretta in similar fashion. The Berretta cost more in blued then the basically identical Tarus in stainless. Beretta charged him more then half of what he had paid for the gun to fix his!!

I have a 1971 Ruger M-77 in 7mm Rem Mag that belonged to Al that he wanted me to have before he died. Al had dropped the gun on a Mulie hunt out west in the mountains and the stock had been cracked and glued/refinished. The gun was well warn from many hunts but extremely accurate. After Als death, I sent it to ruger to have a reblue and new stock put on it. Ruger reblued the barrel, put a new trigger gaurd and sill plate on it, and a new stock. My only complaint is that they put a new stock trigger in as well because the orriginal trigger had been worked and was below factory pull specs. Charge for all of that Zero $, nada.

I have a Ruger Stainless RedHawk with custom Hogue Wood grips, 4 power fixed silver Leupold scope, a Lazer, and trigger work. I have shot many 10s of thousands of rounds through that pistol. I used to shoot it at least once a week, and I usually shoot between 300 and 800 rounds each time out. I have 1400 loads loaded at all time out of the same orriginal order of brass for consistancy. I have tried over 800 variations of loads through that gun, and have shot a 12 shot group at 150 yards at the rage off of sandbags, not a rest, that I covered all 12 shots wiyh my clenched fist.

That RedHawk likes HOT rounds, the hotter the more accurate. I am shooting a 265 Gr Lead semi Wadcutter with Gas Check with 21.3 Grains of 2100. This is way off of the chart for a 250 Gr bullet, let alone a 265Gr. bullet. I have several friends with .500 S&Ws and my .44 is louder and has more recoil then any of the factory ammo they have shot through their .500s, It actually scared a femail I know who owns a .500 Smith, and she said "I don't like shooting that". I shot the gun so much like this, and believe a .44 colt or S&W would blow up in your face with my loads, but I shot it until the trigger gaurd came loose and messed up the brushed finish at the parting line where it joins to the frame. My primers back out to the point that they flatten out and no longer have a smooth curve arround the perimiter, the firing pin dimple actuall gets pushed back outward into the firing pin hole. Anyhow at the same time I had shot the trigger gaurd loose, I had also swaged the dowel pin that the firing pin comes through to the point that the firing pin was stuck in the out position. I sent it to Ruger, they replaced all damaged parts, rebrushed the finish on the entire gun, x-rayed it for metal fatigue, test fired it, and sent it back, NO CHARGE, NADA, FREE!! I don't no of anybody else that will fix damage clearly done by the owner for free.

As for .45s, I have always wanted a real nice .45, but can't see paying close to what I payed for my .475 Wildey for one though. A good shooting .38 special has always been on my to get list.

Roger

Roger, My apologies If I'm rude here.

I'm not one to make statements without knowing most or all the facts but I really must question your qualifications here.

All I've seen here are damaging weapons from misuse, abuse, and overloading to the point of dangerous handling. Nice stories and secondhand knowledge are good conversation pieces but I'm sitting here shocked no one else hasn't said something.

I just want to ask your qualifications on knowing what the heck you're talking about. So far all I've seen are ALL the don'ts on use of a firearm. I'm not talking about crap you've read in some magazine or fireside chats either. Training? Certified education? etc?

Harry

[Groomlakearea51]

A high capacity 9mm with some good "hot" ammunition will do quite a fine job.....

I assume you would not make such a statement without direct experience??

How many people have you killed with a 9mm vs: other calibers such as the .45 ACP??

Roger

Yes, I have experience.... active duty military 1969-1986; law enf 1986-1995; military 1996-1997; law enforcement to present. Numbers? Close encounters of that kind are not appropriate for public discussion.... Thanks for understanding.

[SilverSport]

Roger,

You are entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine...FAR more money has been spent developing the 9MM round than the .38 special in the last 25 years...I don't think it was kickbacks that brought on the 9MM or the semi automatic but it probably was the FBI Miami shootout...

I agree with you...there are many horror stories of officers and anyone else who doesn't train doing stupid stuff with their pistols...more training should be required...it all costs money and money is in short supply...

I believe that shootouts are not static situations and practicing with paper targets that don't move is mostly a waste of resources...once you train on the accuracy...time to move to the moving stuff...again...this costs money and is usually one of the first things cut unless your Chief/Sheriff/Department Head is one of those rare guys who is a "gun guy."

there are reasons beyond capacity that the world went to the 9MM (then .40S&W, then .45ACP, then everything else again)...please don't compare 9MM ball (military) to the hot hollowpoints that are put out by bullet manufacturers today...

as for capacity...well you don't need more than six unless six is all you have and the seventh would have ended the fight, right???

Bill

[SilverSport]

Groomlake...my respect for you grows exponentially...wish there were more like you on this job...thank you, too for your Service

Bill

[HarryO]

I assume you would not make such a statement without direct experience??

How many people have you killed with a 9mm vs: other calibers such as the .45 ACP??

Roger

Not an appropriate question on an open forum! You ask this question from a combat veteran and law enforcement officer you might just get the answer you don't want to hear.

[twistedcrankcammer]

I assume you would not make such a statement without direct experience??

How many people have you killed with a 9mm vs: other calibers such as the .45 ACP??

Roger

Not an appropriate question on an open forum! You ask this question from a combat veteran and law enforcement officer you might just get the answer you don't want to hear.

Harry,

In your own BS words, not to be rude but.....

Who the heck are you to descide what belongs on this forum??

It absolutely was a legitamate question as I relayed a story told to me from experience had in WWII with both .45 ACP and 9mm from a personal friend that was agun dealer and reloade for over 40 years.

I was stating that I was told by someone who saw alot of people killed of the inadequacy of the 9mm parabellum. I realize that powders have made velocity progress and chamber pressures increasements have been made possible in better metalurgy since the 1940s, but unless someone has direct experience with killing and seeing people killed with both calibers, I am not interested in conjecture. I defy you to find me a cop with that kind of first hand knowledge of death. Plus in my medical profession I have probably seen more gun shot injuries up close then most including officers.

Roger

[twistedcrankcammer]

My opinion, but the 9mm is a womens wepon. I had a good friend that died about 8 years back when he was 74 years old. Al was the one who taught me to reload for accuracy. Al was a master sergant in the army and was in on the battle of the buldge, fighting in hedge rows all the way up through the surrender of germany. Al picked up a Thompson sub machine gun early in the war, and through away his M-1 30 carbine. He got the Thomson off of a dead English officer, as the US gave them to the Brits, but he couldn't get one as a sergant. Al told many stories of guys getting up and still fighting with several round of 9mm Parabelum in them, but he said he never saw anyone get up after being hit with a >45.

As for Gun MNFRGs. I wouldn't have an S&W shoved up myARS sideways with the stance they have taken with the gun grabber group.

Ruger and Tarus have the absolute best waranties in the country PERIOD.

I have a friend with one of the Tarus 9mm that was made on the old Bereatta tooling. New shooter, bought Gun Show reloads. Some were double charged compressed loads and others were empty primered brass. He didn't know any better and ended up with a stuck slide on a bulged barrel with 8 rings in the bore. Taurus replaced everything damaged with all new parts, no questions asked. That friend has a buddy that bought the blued Bereta at the same time and they both went shooting at the same time. He screwed up the Beretta in similar fashion. The Berretta cost more in blued then the basically identical Tarus in stainless. Beretta charged him more then half of what he had paid for the gun to fix his!!

I have a 1971 Ruger M-77 in 7mm Rem Mag that belonged to Al that he wanted me to have before he died. Al had dropped the gun on a Mulie hunt out west in the mountains and the stock had been cracked and glued/refinished. The gun was well warn from many hunts but extremely accurate. After Als death, I sent it to ruger to have a reblue and new stock put on it. Ruger reblued the barrel, put a new trigger gaurd and sill plate on it, and a new stock. My only complaint is that they put a new stock trigger in as well because the orriginal trigger had been worked and was below factory pull specs. Charge for all of that Zero $, nada.

I have a Ruger Stainless RedHawk with custom Hogue Wood grips, 4 power fixed silver Leupold scope, a Lazer, and trigger work. I have shot many 10s of thousands of rounds through that pistol. I used to shoot it at least once a week, and I usually shoot between 300 and 800 rounds each time out. I have 1400 loads loaded at all time out of the same orriginal order of brass for consistancy. I have tried over 800 variations of loads through that gun, and have shot a 12 shot group at 150 yards at the rage off of sandbags, not a rest, that I covered all 12 shots wiyh my clenched fist.

That RedHawk likes HOT rounds, the hotter the more accurate. I am shooting a 265 Gr Lead semi Wadcutter with Gas Check with 21.3 Grains of 2100. This is way off of the chart for a 250 Gr bullet, let alone a 265Gr. bullet. I have several friends with .500 S&Ws and my .44 is louder and has more recoil then any of the factory ammo they have shot through their .500s, It actually scared a femail I know who owns a .500 Smith, and she said "I don't like shooting that". I shot the gun so much like this, and believe a .44 colt or S&W would blow up in your face with my loads, but I shot it until the trigger gaurd came loose and messed up the brushed finish at the parting line where it joins to the frame. My primers back out to the point that they flatten out and no longer have a smooth curve arround the perimiter, the firing pin dimple actuall gets pushed back outward into the firing pin hole. Anyhow at the same time I had shot the trigger gaurd loose, I had also swaged the dowel pin that the firing pin comes through to the point that the firing pin was stuck in the out position. I sent it to Ruger, they replaced all damaged parts, rebrushed the finish on the entire gun, x-rayed it for metal fatigue, test fired it, and sent it back, NO CHARGE, NADA, FREE!! I don't no of anybody else that will fix damage clearly done by the owner for free.

As for .45s, I have always wanted a real nice .45, but can't see paying close to what I payed for my .475 Wildey for one though. A good shooting .38 special has always been on my to get list.

Roger

Roger, My apologies If I'm rude here.

I'm not one to make statements without knowing most or all the facts but I really must question your qualifications here.

All I've seen here are damaging weapons from misuse, abuse, and overloading to the point of dangerous handling. Nice stories and secondhand knowledge are good conversation pieces but I'm sitting here shocked no one else hasn't said something.

I just want to ask your qualifications on knowing what the heck you're talking about. So far all I've seen are ALL the don'ts on use of a firearm. I'm not talking about crap you've read in some magazine or fireside chats either. Training? Certified education? etc?

Harry

Harry,

That is OK, appology not accepted as not genuin.

The only dangerous handling I have done is overloading the hell out of my ruger. It is not something I jumped into, but rather slowly approached and was given as an example of Rugers unconditional return policy. I do not suggest anyone else try that, but the ruger is a hell of alot stouter platform then a colt or Smith to begin with. Further, handloading guidelines are based on standardised loads to be safe with generally speaking, all firearms. A case in point would be the .45 long colt, all data is based on antiquated firearm useage and produces alot less firepower balistically then the .44 Rem Mag, yet modern firearms such as the Thompson center Contender or it's two more rescent improved variants, or the Wildey in .45 Long Colt can easily match or surpass the .44 magnum.

I've been handloading for over 20 years, free float my own stocks, bed my own actions, perform my own trigger work. Hunted most of my entire life. As far as tactical "TRAINING" I played paintball for over 20 years, played on a Nationally ranked and sponsored team, helped build, devolpe and run two fields. We had a 3 story 302 room old closed down Tuberculosis hospital that the local Marine recruiters, Army Recruiters, Sheriffs department, Police Department and State Troopers used to come practice tactical situations on, that propperty had 64 acres and we did wooded scenarios as well.

A true story case in point, 15 County Sherrif Department Deputies etc. came out to play in the woods. At the end of the day we offered for the field owner (Rented me my first paint gun and 2.5 years more play), myself, and my brother in law (Younger, that I taught as a kid to play, with 15 years experience under his belt). We offered for the three of us to go hide in the woods and the 15 of them to come get us, complete side elimination scenario. Second game they went in and we came looking. Third game we hid again. Total outcome for all 3 games, 45 Sherrifs eliminated, one of us (my brother in law)

I have no formal firearms training, only personal experiance, but I bet I know more about handloading, gunsmithing, barrel dianamics, and can hand you your *** in eather a building or the woods with a paint gun. Want to talk balistic coefficients with me??

So what is YOUR claim to fame that you get to have a condescending point a view?? Another SWAT member that I can outshoot perhaps??

Roger

[twistedcrankcammer]

Test after test have shown a revolver is prone to total lock up not being able to fire.

Primary culprits are foreign objects in and around the cylinder. The cylinder will lock up not being able to be fired at all.

Semi autos are subject to failure also but can usually be easily cleared by shoving the slide forward or actually pulling the slide back clearing objects that keep the firearm from firing.

THis is a standard "sandbox" test which has the revolver design being basically ignored in defense situations.

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade but it's one of the main factors in my using the semi auto. I have a few revolvers (S&W 10, 29, Ruger Blackhawk 30 cal carbine, 357, Super Redhawk 44 mag and numerous revolvers from family hand me downs to diverse acquisitions over the years. I'm familiar with most firearms from around the world. Actually I was a weapons specialist for quite a few years in the USMC.

They all will do the job. Any caliber, brand, model. Choose yer poison fellas.

Harry

Harry,

I would say I had at least 30,000 to 40,000 rounds put through my Ruger Red Hawk with no cylinder hang ups, misfires, or other problems until I had to have it repaired from me overloading the crap out of it.

So which magazine or "fireside chat" did you pull this [bs] from?????

Roger

[HarryO]

Hey Roger,

You're still talking about 9mm that was developed over 100 years ago. Many improvements have been made since then. 9mm is NOT my favorite caliber.

I have a lot of respect for a guy that can clean up the aftermath of a shooting. Medical personel were some of my most valued friends. The corpsmen and medics ARE some of the bravest and craziest SOB's I've ever had the honor to serve with. I owe them my lifelong respect, admiration, and life.

I have the utmost respect for ANY combat veteran having placed him/herself in "Harms Way". I have the utmost respect for anyone who has/have/is serving this country. This does include any law enforcement, Guard unit, fire fighter, etc that puts their life on the line everyday or can be called to do so at any minute.

It's not a pretty sight myself and too many others have seen first hand. And YES, I've used both in combat situations. I do prefer the 45 personally but having used the 9mm I can testify first hand it is more than adequate to "bend, fold, staple, and mutilate. Even a 45 not properly placed doesn't do the job the first time.

I have seen more than anyone's share of gunshot wounds. I have 3 distinctive painful scars from being on the wrong end of 7.62 fmj's courtesy of Russia and China. Expeditionary Force Marines almost 19 years. First in, Last out. First hand info. Not second hand. I've probably handled, evaluated, and fired 80% of the worlds weaponry at one time or another. Pulling the trigger on a human being is a heckova lot different than a piece of paper

One of my favorite practice sessions was shooting clay targets with an Officers Model Colt 45acp from the back of a moving PBR on the Sappone river in '68. Sometimes coming under fire. There's a shite load of crazy Navy personnel still on the loose. LOL!

I've been loading a little longer than that. I shot National Match, competition handgun, Trap/*****, until my eyes started showing their age. Yep, I'm an old fart set in his ways. I'm not so old as not to have retained my memory as far as I know.

You're right. I've never been under fire from a paper target, coke bottle, or milk jug. And I never shot paint ball so you win this pi..ing contest.

Harry

[SilverSport]

Harry,

...and I thank you for your Service...a debt that can never be repaid but we should spend our lives trying...

Bill

[Groomlakearea51]

Roger, I sent you a PM.

[twistedcrankcammer]

Roger,

You are entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine...FAR more money has been spent developing the 9MM round than the .38 special in the last 25 years...I don't think it was kickbacks that brought on the 9MM or the semi automatic but it probably was the FBI Miami shootout...

I agree with you...there are many horror stories of officers and anyone else who doesn't train doing stupid stuff with their pistols...more training should be required...it all costs money and money is in short supply...

I believe that shootouts are not static situations and practicing with paper targets that don't move is mostly a waste of resources...once you train on the accuracy...time to move to the moving stuff...again...this costs money and is usually one of the first things cut unless your Chief/Sheriff/Department Head is one of those rare guys who is a "gun guy."

there are reasons beyond capacity that the world went to the 9MM (then .40S&W, then .45ACP, then everything else again)...please don't compare 9MM ball (military) to the hot hollowpoints that are put out by bullet manufacturers today...

as for capacity...well you don't need more than six unless six is all you have and the seventh would have ended the fight, right???

Bill

Bill,

First I woul like to say I respect your oppinion and your post.

Next; Kickback reply was directed at the fact that local law enforcement paid about $180 a weapon in bulk order more then I could have bought the same unit for new as a private individual.

Finally, "The FBI Miami Shootout", are you talking about "The Dade County Masecre" or is this a seperate incident that I am not aware of, as I think the so called "Dade County Masecre" is a perfect example of the 9mm not being enough gun. How many rounds and still returning fire???

Roger

[SilverSport]

I never heard it called that but the 9MM at that time...Winchester Western 115grain Silvertip Hollowpoint did exactly what the "experts" at the time intended it to do using the now disgraced Relative Incapacitation Index (RII)...this was the expert report that had .380ACP equaling .45ACP ball as I recall...anyway...10" of penetration and stop...just what the first hit did...blew out Platt's Aorta...this round should have killed him but Platt and Matix were Military traind and determined...they fought on until finally done in by FBI Agent Mireles' shotgun...my point is the Silvertip did exactly what it was designed to do...the problem was that the information given for its design was flawed...this incident in April of 1986 fueled MANY departments to give up the revolver for the then emerging "Wundernine"...9MM rounds have come lightyears from then...

Bill

[SilverSport]

I believe only two Sepcial Agents had 9MM pistols (Smith and Wesson) with the others armed with Smith and Wesson .357 revolvers (probably armed with the Chicago/St. Louis/FBI load....38 special +P LeadSemiWadcutterHollowPoint) as well as Remington 870 pump shotgun and AR-15/M-16s (although they were in the trunk)...

edited to add...looking online I see that two more agents may have been armed with 9MM pistols...my memory didn't recall this but I stand corrected as to the 9MM pistols employed by the Special Agents)

Bill

[twistedcrankcammer]

I believe only two Sepcial Agents had 9MM pistols (Smith and Wesson) with the others armed with Smith and Wesson .357 revolvers (probably armed with the Chicago/St. Louis/FBI load....38 special +P LeadSemiWadcutterHollowPoint) as well as Remington 870 pump shotgun and AR-15/M-16s (although they were in the trunk)...

edited to add...looking online I see that two more agents may have been armed with 9MM pistols...my memory didn't recall this but I stand corrected as to the 9MM pistols employed by the Special Agents)

Bill

I did a quick web search, and yes, it was the same incident, but I had always heard it called the Dade County Masecre as a description.

As I recall, the two suspects would kill shooters at gun glubs and plinkers to obtain the wepons they used in the robries to prevent the wepons from being traced.

The one suspect only fired one round total from a shotgun, he discarged no other rounds of any sort. So basically what we have is one guy that fought 8 FBI officers, killing two and wounding 5 more before secumbing to 12 gunshot hits.

Question; Why were the only two law enforcement revolers on hand .357 magnums, yet underloaded with .38 special, and again, it speaks to the lack of 9mm takedown power as the one suspect took 6 hits and the second 12 hits before they died, yet they both were moving from car to car with multiple gunshot wounds??

FBI went to .40 S&W when it was found the 10mm had to much recoil.... Sounds like a good way to weed out aplicants, not to get rid of the firepower.

Roger

[SilverSport]

2 FBI agents killed almost instantly...one paralyzed in the opening moments...FBI agents using handguns and offenders using rifles...they carried these revolvers with the .38 special +P because that's the way most every Law Enforcement Officer carried their .357 revolvers at the time...a determined individual with a riflle can do a LOT of damage...the Military Special Forces training was put to use...handguns against cars didn't fare well while .223 against man did what that round was designed to do...a LOT of damage

10MM was a knee jerk reaction... .40 S&W was essentially the same in smaller sized weapons but now we are getting into the politics of it aren't we...

Bill