Deang

How many SVS subs does it take to create a pressure wave strong enough to keep that car from moving forward? 1, 2 ,3 ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Those three speakers all use the same 1 inch titanium compression driver. What is different is the size of the horn they are coupled to. Now listen very carefully. I will say it in a whisper. R F 7f>s>c> ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 06-02-2002 at 05:53 PM

Tom's tone was appropriate. You need to work on being clever. You have confused being 'clever' with being 'anal'. There is nothing to gain by being small minded. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Oh, I almost forgot. Zeke -- HSU makes good stuff. You should buy it. What is the point in bashing Tom? Buy what you want, we could really care less. You're the one that has to live with your decision, not us. As far as your other questions go -- use the search utility. I don't think anyone here is really interesting in addressing anymore of your questions at this point. Tom is family. OTOH -- we haven't had anyone to kick around for some time, so you could stick around. It's tough finding a villiage idiot here at the Klipsch Forum. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Tom, You are such a class act, and surely have better things to do then spend all of your time defending the premier SVS products against a handful of detractors. You learn so much by just actually getting one of your units in the listening room. I now understand that statements like: "Well, there are musical subs and there are HT subs." "Well, there are fast subs and there are slow subs." "Well, there are tight subs and there are loose subs." ...are completely ridiculous, and the differences can simply be put down to the following: The sonic characteristics of the room The relationship of the room to the unit The unit's placement Settings employed after calibration Type and quality of the crossover employed I've been wanting to write a review of my 20-39 CS+, but I've been so busy listening and enjoying it, that I just haven't made the time. It's the same reason I haven't written a review of the RF7. I did write a review of my Sony DVP-S9000ES, primarily because I was to a large degree expected to be let down by it's Redbook playback -- and it took me so completely by surprise, I felt compelled to write it. The 20-39 CS+ (as well as my RF7's) simply perform as advertised in every way. What is there to say except, "Yep, does what they say -- really fantastic." So what do I think? I think it performs flawlessly. While watching movies it literally shakes every 2by4 and joist in my brick home. While doing the low end of my music, it just bounces along with no sense of effort. It's musical in every way. It has great pace, and I never sense the characteristic disembodiment one often hears with subs in general. It never sounds like it is its own entity in the playback system. It integrates perfectly. What has suprised me more than anything is the speed and tightness. I know you don't like the word 'speed'. But how else can I describe a sub that never sounds like it's trying to 'catch-up' with my RF7's. I marvel at it's simplicity. One moving part. I believe this is the secret to its coherency. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 06-02-2002 at 03:53 PM

this is certainly interesting ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

NOZ that seems totally backwards to me I would think the Scalas would be awesome for HT and the RF7's better for music ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Oh my gawd -- what the hell is it? Geez man, you're actually touching it ~ Awesome catch. So, you gonna eat it or mount it This reminds me: http://users3.ev1.net/~jtclay/fishin.htm Don't forget to turn the sound up -- there is audio with this one. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 06-01-2002 at 09:46 PM

Ahh yes...the dented woofer syndrome. Power plugs swinging, thumbs being jammed into them, cats jumping with claws clinging. Amazing the abuse those Klipschcones withstand for being less than paper thin, and as light as a feather. Good thing it wasn't a Heresy -- your thumb would have gone right through the paper driver. Worse yet -- imagine if you were trying to position a LaScala on that shelf, and it fell over forcing you into the bass bin. Man, wouldn't that suck. f>s>------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 06-01-2002 at 09:37 PM

Tom, I can't find the 301 -- is it the predecessor to the current 302? The 302 crosses over at 1.2Khz -- doesn't really seem like your kind of animal. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

helluva thread i'm bookmarking this baby ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Would some please define "low quality" LP playback. What are we talking here? And what constitutes a "...a high-quality, properly set-up LP playback system." Can I get this with $200, or $10,000? No one ever seems to say for sure. It was one of the reasons I went digital. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Oh man, could this get dicey. Now Builder, since when did you start worrying about WAF Cost? A pair of KPT325's would run less than $3000 a pair, right around what a set of LaScalas would cost, and they are two-ways to boot -- with a HF driver that plays down to 600Hz. Low end extension? Well, they play at least as low as the Scalas and Heresy's right? Who needs low end finesse when you got all that ACCURACY? Kidding aside. I think Tom would argue for the driver that plays everything from 600Hz on up. I gotta admit -- that's appealing. One thing you bring up of notable interest is the bit about being designed for being able to take massive amounts of power. That makes me think about Heritage and how PWK designed Heritage to be used with very low power. Pro Line configurations might play hell with SET or Triode PP amps. I get this idea from a review I read for the RB5 about a year ago. Here are the comments I am referring too with the related graph. The impedance curve shows woofer and port peaks, the latter at 50 ohms, a low point between them of 5 ohms, with a high of 29 ohms in the midrange. Maybe this speaker isn't quite the answer for single-ended fans after all, since frequency response will tend to track the impedance curve with these amps in such circumstances. The midrange phase angle is fairly steep at +/- 45o, but we must remember that this is electrical phase, and that the horn loading of the tweeter, which puts it well behind the woofer, may well tend to bring it into better acoustic phase with it. The RB-5 should be fairly easy to drive, but a single-ended amp might not like the phase angle, either.f>s> ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 06-01-2002 at 08:17 PM

oohhhweee -- lynn and hump goin at it -- ROTFLOL hey trespasser -- on your budget you gotta go used market most bang for the buck will be 5 Heresy's you can find them for around $300 to $400 a pair you will need 3 pair, so that's around $1000 start shopping ebay and www.audiogon.com ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Week 1 - "What's with the black water heater?" Week 2 - "It doesn't give me a headache." Week 3 - "It doesn't look so bad." Week 4 - "You really like that thing don't you?" Week 5 - I take off early from work to go home and watch FROM HELL. Debbie gets home around 5:30 and comes upstairs, stands next to my chair, looks over my shoulder, and asks: "Isn't that distracting" "What?" I ask "The whole house shaking." ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Zeke said: >>> There is like so many posts about SVS, and I can read anything there is to know about SVS, but not so many posts about HSU. <<<f>s> Gee, I wonder why that is? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

firejim is my hero ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

They actually look pretty nice -- real good shape except for that crushed dustcap. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Christos -- I was completely making a joke! As a matter of fact I visit your quite often, as the reference systems are simply gorgeous to look at. I actually would have stayed with vinyl if I had not sold every single record I used to own. It would simply be impossible to replace them now. I have neither the time, nor the resources to start over. Boa -- all you need now is 8-track! builder -- A vet. I repent in dust in ashes. You deserve the highest respect. I mean that. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Dave >>What Diamond noticed was that the oldsters did not react the same to the CD's, even though it was the same music, that they had to analog. They did not quiet down and listen, and seemed bored.<< Considering just how bad PCM sounded during that time frame -- this should not surprise us. It wasnt just our imaginations, it sounded very bad. PCM is not a loss-less technology like vinyl, and it has taken PCM 20 years to become listenable.f>s> >>sound-card in refurbished 200mhz or better computer (less than 200) will provide CD playback equal to or better than a dedicated CD player at twice the price. Further, ripping CD's to WAV files (without transcoding!) is far more convenient than handling CD's.<< To rip CDs to WAV files still entails handling CDs. Also, WAV files are still just 0s and 1s and I fail to see how this process gives you more than what you started with. That is, you start with a certain amount of binary information and you end with the same amount of binary information. I guess I dont fully understand. On another note, how does this process compare to a player at 2 times the price? I would be really interested in more detail regarding the equipment, software, and exact process you undertake to achieve the results you describe (Im not always the brightest light in the chandelier). What do you mean by "transcoding".f>s> mdeneen >>I have no doubt the reports above are true. Which is to say, most LPs sound better than most CDs on most systemsthe most common proposition is that "digital is just ones and zeros which lack a certain soul, and LPs are the REAL music represented in an analog wave and this more soulful<< The reasoning is that PCM doesnt really translate or utilize ALL of the information available from the source. Evidently, it would take more binary information than CD can store in order to accurately represent all of the analog information. There is considerable compression. At least, this is my understanding.f>s> >>LPs of the Golden Era - say the 50s and 60s - were generally made from much simpler micing techniques than CDs made today. So, for instance, a nice jazz ensemble recorded in '56 might have used 5 or 6 mics simply placed and recorded direct to the master tape. Mixing would then be a rather simple task. Today, that same recording would use 25 mics, a digital console, massive over dubbing, and very complicated mixing including having musicians play the parts at different times, in different studios and on different media, which get assembled later.<< I think this would also apply to recordings made through most of the 70s. I think your latter statement regarding the complexity of more recent recording methods along with the inherent limitations of the PCM process, worked together to account for the shear awfulness of most CDs over the last 20 years. The learning curve for Recording Engineers must have also been immense. Simply to many changes in the process at one time. What I believe however, is that advancements in the technology utilized by the studios coupled with more extensive experience has led to some very good current PCM recordings. I have purchased many of the new 20 bit (and more) remasters of discs originally released in the early 80s and they are a substantial improvement. A few are inferior remixes but they have almost no discernible grain.f>s> >>The LP technology, compared to CD technology has a) less dynamic range narrower frequency response c) higher noise level d) less channel separation and e) an inability to remain stable in some of the modern playback environments. I cant imagine a table trying to track accurately in my listening room with my playback habits. Higher than normal SPLs and the powerful pressure waves from my sub would present a virtual nightmare to any table and arm combination. You can only isolate so much. >>and LP is very comparable in this regard to today's "FM Stereo Broadcast" specificationsYesterday, C&S reports to me how "wonderful" his McIntosh MR65 tuner has been sounding compared to his various other sources of LP, 78 and so on. And I start thinking, "Hmmmm, yes, my MR-71 sounds very nice too." He goes on to ask, "Why is that?"<< Dont forget about all the strange things FM stations do to those signals. We know they boost the lows and highs considerably.f>s> >>what might account for our LP preference is this: Just the right FR balance, not too much "stereo effect" (closer to mono), This would make it similar to today's FM. Also, since the sessions were generally miced in a more natural way, and since there was a distinct lack of processing on the boards, a more inherently "natural" sound on the master tape. A better recording to start with.<< I think the emphasis should be on the word "balanced". Not in how it relates to imaging, sound-staging, or separation but simply in the sense of how the top and bottom of the frequency spectrum relate to each other.f>s> >>Many CDs are gimmicked up. Why? Because they can.<< I think for the longest time they sounded the way they did was because they were mixed to sound good on boom-boxes, and not high-end, accurate stereo systems.f>s> >>What really happens when you try to record up to 20KHz - and you end up with a lot of "sizzle" on the recording that is generally TOTALLY missing from LPs?<< I dont anything happens when you try to record up to 20KHz. Ive been playing around with a test disc and SPL meter recently, I found out that I cannot hear anything above 15KHz. The 15KHz test tone is non-existent to my ears. So the fact that CDs can really go to 20KHz is inconsequential as far as my hearing is concerned. However, the older CD releases still sound quite hot on top. I think they were boosting the levels between 8 and 12KHz to enhance playback on systems not capable of accurate reproduction.f>s> >>And, in real performances filtered out of the air by the woman's flowered hat in front of you..<< Yes, this woman is everywhere. I hate that women in the hat.f>s> >>if you have tone controls on your preamp, try playing a CD, and shaping it more like an FM broadcast. Cut the bass a bit starting at 50Hz. Cut the highs starting at 10 or 12KHz. Blend the two channels back together a bit to get less "stereo separation." Does it sound closer to the LP?<< I would be simply amazed if an FM broadcast even goes to 12KHz. I say if one likes the older music - just stick with vinyl. If one likes much of the newer stuff (early 90's and forward), just go ahead and stay with CD because it has gotten so much better that it has pretty much closed the gap, and then of course there is SACD. Between the new PCM releases, reissues of slightly older material redone with 20 bit and more, SACD, and the quality of sound I'm hearing from the new DACs -- the temptation to go back to vinyl just isn't there for me anymore.f>s> This message has been edited by deang on 05-31-2002 at 02:13 PM

HSU can be seen and purchased online at www.hsuresearch.com I recently bought the HSU electronic crossover which is an excellent piece of gear for the money -- so I know these folks can engineer. My main problem with the subs is that the driver is at the top, making the units kind of top heavy (bad if you have kids or pets), there is no grill (protection) for the driver, and they are also engineered to be placed as close to your sitting position as possible -- versus corner loaded (placement). The most performance for the money is SVS. This is not even open to debate. For $800 you can get the big one in the powered version with the built in crossover. It will roughly give you the output of two 1000 watt cubes. I am not kidding. It may have a low WAF, and my wife said it looked like an "ugly water heater" -- but after she heard it she actually preferred it to both the Boston Acoustics PV1000 and Klipsch LF10 I used to have (both high powered cubes with passive radiators). Don't play around and do what I did -- which was buy three different subs and lose over $1000 before I finally did what I should have done in the first place. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>

Kelly, I feel the recent generation DACs are very good. Until recently, I would have never even remotely considered a Sony machine. When you get some time I would pleased if you would read the review I wrote for the Sony DVP-S9000ES at the Asylum. I copied the post to this site here You might also find the following three threads interesting (they are short). http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/76576.html http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/75315.html http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/70968.html ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 05-31-2002 at 01:36 AM

Here you go -- we were just discussing the deal with the marker the other day at the Asylum. Here is the article as posted. http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/75153.html ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 05-30-2002 at 11:24 PM

Hetmann I'm very familiar with that table. I had the one two models up with the black lacquer finish. It's actually a pretty decent rig for the money. Why not fire her up and see what shes got? Mike Would you believe that's what I just got done doing with my kids? Sounded pretty darn good on my wimpy 2-channel tube rig Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 05-30-2002 at 11:00 PM

i can't believe i just read this whole thread my head hurts oh gawd -- it's the damn glue -- I gotta get outta here ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c>