RRFL

You do know that the Jubs will fit very nice where those Belles are located in the corners. The leftover Belles would work nicely in a two-channel room.Chris go for it, you don't need saving, live life to the max, you want them, make it happen [ip]

IIRC, this distance is affected mostly by the vertical separation of the K-402 and the bass bin mouths. I've found that I can listen within this distance without change in timbre, although it is very nice to pull back to 10-11 feet slant distance from each speaker, which is where my two prime listening chairs are located, and where the imaging performance is, IMHO, spectacular. At the back of my listening room--35 to 40 feet away--they sound even better in terms of FR and low bass, but L-R stereo imaging is much less apparent. By the way, the horizontal and vertical polar response of the Jub bass bin and the K-402 horn match in the 400-450 Hz band, which also helps speaker integration at close listening distances, even off-axis. Chris Thanks for pointing those aspects out Chris as it matches with my listening experience with the three way cinema version. Just to add to the small room experience with these is that they don't need to be turned up loud to get going. At whisper quite levels it's the same from the speakers and better from the room. So when everyone else is asleep you can still listen to them all night long. I can hardly wait to unpack my pair and get them into action.

Knowing how much you like folks to offer a competing idea, Dean... I believe that the "bass bin bifurcation issue" is a function of frequency to which you listen to the bass bins (just like Khorn bass bins - which actually have a bit worse problem due to the geometries of the bass bin horn mouths). I also know that, once time aligned, many of the "close field listening" issues simply disappear. Ever listen to a time-aligned Khorn? I find that it's nice even up close, unlike Khorns using passive crossovers and no time alignment. Regardless of esoteric issues (like the one above), the fact remains that you will be in the near field of the speaker at some point--usually ~120 Hz and below, and this will affect perception of bass frequencies regardless of the way that they're reproduced. The issue that I've found that's perceptable to my ears is the undersize midrange horn mouth vertical axis length for all Heritage speakers, i.e., the "collapsing polars" of these midrange horns. Fortunately some simple room acoustic treatments can help a great deal with this problem. The K-402 horn on the Jubilee doesn't have this issue. Chris I think I have to agree with Chris on this one. While my forgetter often works better than my rememberer, I seem to recall Roy saying that the Jubilee sounds all come together within 3 or 4 feet of the speaker. From memory I believe, Roy has said it's 8 feet minimum distance that you need to be away from the Jubilee. As far as the bifurcated horn mouth is concerned a combing will be noticed off axis above 500hz due to wavelength and the width of the front panel between the horn mouths. That's all from memory so I welcome comments from others.

First of all, I reckon the debates you guys have about the fine details are very interesting. Just in testing my memory and doing A/B comparisons from the 70's to now. I saw something back then on oil filled caps that I concluded "stability in service was a key advantage" and that's why PWK used them. Now, all this additional information you have provided is most valuable to me. One thing that I have always found interesting is how different speakers sound when compared to each other and then the personal preference that leads to often "passionate" choice of the speaker and then the tweaking. Why is it that I am totally not impressed with reflex enclosures and yet others think they are the best? What we are looking for is what we will find.

emmm most interesting!!! I actually consider each point of view to be correct and that each person is totally genuine in expressing their point of view! I note that from a live mixing point of view, the sound I heard tonight at the outdoor Sydney Trop Fest in the Domain Park was off the scale inaccurate compared to this discussions fine detail, I was not impressed and left going to Darling Harbour to watch the Chinese New Year parade celebrations and listen to live natural instruments and real fireworks. If the memory is so flawed from the start, then how do we know what we are listening to right now is any good at all? Do we just believe it is good and so that makes it good? When I'm sound mixing a live band on stage, how do I know I made it sound better when I made some minor adjustments and then used the EQ in/out switch on that channel to compare the difference? Are the people who say it's the best mix they have ever heard for that band I was mixing that night unable to compare what I did to what they remembered they had heard previously and are simply endeavouring to please me, make me feel good so I will get a good nights sleep?

I like the way that looks, I would think there are many different tops that would sound good. Correct, I can just see some of the girls in my Yoga class on a stack of 4 MWM just talking about stuff.[]

Wow That is really really cool! After I had been in there most of the day on the final setup. I soooooooo really wanted a room like that for mine. We sat there listening for about half and hour and then had the idea lets turn it up louder. That was just a though. I played many audio tracks and movies and listening to Voice by Hiromi was off the scale remarkable.

ah...yes...and thats how I would do it if I were going to include a passive radiator. This is most interesting for me as the "shorter table version" THTLP build number 9 that I'm building at the moment will have all the internal bracing as what is described as a shelf and I'm doing this to make the assemble less tedious. I will be drilling large holes with various size hole saws through the bracing so it will be more like and aircraft frame and so I don't get pressure differences in the 3 throates. This experiment number 9 is for the Sydney Cinema Dealer to go with his home stereo system. It will have dual 10" drivers. The pair of THTLP for the cinema build numbers 5 & 6 are above the screen pointing mouth to mouth with a panel centred between them. Number 7 & 8 are a 16" wide pair for my LaScala. Number 10 might be isobaric. Number 11 & 12 will be a LFE pair for my Home Jubs so I think by then I will be happy I got it right.

Yeah I agree the K-402/K1133 and K510/K69 is my favorite top end of anyhing I have heard so far. This was clearly evident when we listened to them at JC's house a couple years ago. We listened to the 403 w/b&cde82, 402 with various drivers, 510, 402/510 also several of the tractrix top hats one from Greg Roberts, one from Gothover or Alk. This was all on top of JC's killer tractrix bass bin. The 402/510 combo just sounded better than anything else that was there. That was alot of work rolling through those horns but at the end of the weekend we all wanted to hear that combo again. My Jubs are still in their boxes as I have distractions that are causing delays in completing my home system. This is the K-402/K1133 and K510/K69 factory Cinema configuration with the new 510's. I note that during my setup I did route the centre channel through the left and right Jubs with a 3db cut and this created a virtual centre channel. Therefore, I would be happy with no centre speaker as the capacity of the pair of Jubs was more than sufficient to cause impact in the seats that was better than many major top shelf cinemas. We don't know how loud it can go. the room is 40foot by 40foot by up to 26foot high. I did set it for cinema mode with a mix of the centre channel into the centre KPT-4350 and the Jubs so I could place the virtual image into the centre of the screen. The room is used for live bands, seminars and gymnastic presentations as well as cinema. All the walls etc are covered with special acoustic treatments to remove the walls as much as possible. There is some surfaces that unavoidably are reflective e,g, the screen.

Yes, this is something that a believe a lot of folks miss using only passive crossover/balancing networks, and I think that those folks that haven't used active crossovers have missed a really big deal. If you want to hear different crossover points, steep slope filter effects, time alignment, and overall speaker balancing changes (via the active's PEQ filters), and even help to protect your drivers (limiters, etc.) then all these changes are at your fingertips - immediate A/B comparisons, no additional cost, and also have stable performance even if you are using your speakers for heavy duty...as in very loud...service. It also allows you to make driver and horn changes at home and get VERY, VERY close to having balanced/well-implemented changes, that you can change again at any time. As you might can tell, I'm not in the passive crossover camp. The advantages of good active crossovers far, far outweigh any perceived disadvantages relative to passive crossover networks, IMHO. In addition, the newer active crossover units from EV, Ashly, and others are exceptionally high quality devices with 105+ db dynamic range, and in other technical performance areas. And you can reuse your active crossovers with future speakers without having to pay for another crossover network. The price of these new high quality units is now getting down to below the cost of good quality third-party passive crossovers that are custom-designed for specific speakers. I notice that many people discount the effect of driver/horn time alignment until they hear it corrected for their horn-loaded speakers. You get the ability to step through different time alignments to your heart's content with active crossover units, and the effect I've found is big even crossing at 400 Hz and aligning a horn-loaded bass bin with a horn-loaded midrange. The same thing goes for bi-amping and tri-amping - the effects on SQ are really positive changes for speakers with complex input impedances, like Klipsch Heritage, especially the Khorn. Chris I'd also like to try an Ashly as I really liked what I heard at JC's a few years ago. I have always felt that active and passives have their places. I do see the benefit of biamping especially with the crossover in the line stage. I'll experiment with the actives for a while longer. I still have a few things to try. Soon I am going to listen to all my passives and actives in one day. This will be very interesting. Yes Yes Yes, I set this up listening in real time while making changes to the xovers, the EQ, the delay, the limiters, for all 10 channels and I set in place saved presets so I could recall them to do A-B comparisons. I also set presets so I could mute & un-mute combinations of the 10 output channels. There are 6 channels for the Jubilee@535, 1 channel for the flying centre KPT-4350, 1 channel for the pair of THTLP "LFE" ( My 3rd experiment in prep for my home Jub system, lol ) 2 channels for the 8 KPT-8001 surrounds. In this case we used the Allen & Heath iDR8 "non expanded" driving QSC Cinema Amps with the OPPO DVD as the front end. The expanders are available as a Digital inputs format (mentioned in response to this quote below) which is my sentiments exactly... One of the "big holes" in the audio electronics market right now is an integrated preamp (that can handle audio and video) combined with an active crossover, such that the extra D/A, A/D conversion can be eliminated, thus effectively eliminating passive or outboard active crossovers altogether. I haven't seen one of these yet, and especially not for multi-channel systems (e.g., 5.1, etc.). Handling all bitstream conversions (digital domain) and separating into bi-amp or tri-amp output channels would be a nice capability to have for higher-end multichannel systems.Another approach is for active crossovers to accept digital inputs instead of analog-only inputs like all the active crossovers that I've seen to date, e.g., an HDMI input channel to the active crossover(s), and HDMI output from the preamp. Complete immunity from noise and analog transfer issues is the holy grail, IMHO. Chris I send this pic to Roy and after I had done the initial rushed setup to make the system safe for use. A month later when I went back to do it properly there was a river of compliments. After I finished I wrote to Roy with the comment " The Jubs are Exquisite Roy, I knew they would be" He then requested more photos and was please there was a great sounding multi purpose system in Australia.

When I ordered my Jubs Roy gave me two drivers and two horns as HF options. He suggested the K69 as his preferred driver of the two. Of the horns he said the 402 had better polars than the 510. Therefore, the result was a 402/K69. This was before the most recent modification to the 510. The Jubilee@535 is the cinema version and I have now completed a cinema installation with these. Exquisite. The Jubilee is available in what was called the Decorators finish back in the mid 70's when I was selling Klipsch speakers in a Sydney HiFi store. There were a number of models available in the Khorn and the Decorators finish was a considerable saving compared to the outstanding complete finishes that were available. To finish my personal pair of Jubilee by building Top Hats, I have Jub end plates that Roy sent me in the container with the Cinema set of Jubs. I will use a pair of these plates for each 402. One plate on top and the other underneath of each 402 with dowels separating the plates at each of the 4 rear corners and another 2 at each edge of the horn mouth. I will then wrap a belt of silk like material around the dowels so the rear of the 402 will be hidden and this will give me a uniform finish around the top hat with only the edges of the plates showing. I will make a recessed collar to fit in between the LF and HF and I will have a look and feel consistent with the traditional style. I find the variations people put together around the Jub most interesting and we are all very fortunate to have this available to tinker with.

Measure it! Maybe Klipschorns in the corners would look good? As for a La Scala built-in, I like mine! Klipschorns are my thought also. They have a very small triangle foot print compared to a LaScala square foot print.

I can make do without a car and slam the budget hard on everything else, that is how I justify the pricing on a sliding scale of what is most important in my life. I think I also went down the same path your thinking about and this is where I ended up. I also read almost every word on the First Watt countless times. Then read I seemed to be re-reading everything else about his concepts. His passion inspired me. My understanding of all this lead me down this path. Initially I found myself drawn to get a pair of the XA30.5 to drive my Jubilee. These are the only Stereo Class A and considering everything I think they are a bargain. You get that attention to detail of the first watt. While they are 30w/channel they leave class A @ 60w/c and slip into class AB to more than 150w/c before getting to their rated distortion. They have a proper power supply. I settled on a pair of the X350.5 as they are the biggest stereo amps @ 350w/channel AB. They are single ended class A for the first watt area then become push pull class A leaving class A at 40w/c slipping into class AB. They have only 2 gain stages and the feed back is minimal local. With one channel driving the LF and the other driving the HF, I considered that the very significant power supplies would provide ample power for whatever I could ever want to drive the LF with 400w as the HF from the same amp would only require 50w, yet the design made the detail available in the first watt. The X350.5 has good bass slam when driving difficult speakers when compared to other designs. I'm using the Ashly NE8800 as a balanced preamp so I can process the direct output of the OPPO BDP 105 as 5.1 without anything else in the signal path. Old School Minimalist thinking here. I will use my old Yamaha C2A preamp direct into the Ashly inputs 7 & 8 for everything else. I hope this gives you some more food for thought.

I agree totally The Horn Loaded Subs are the best fun ever. I have been experimenting with the THTLP and I'm now building number 7&8 a matched pair 16inch by 18inch to go with my LaScala. The Last pair of THTLP 5&6 are the LFE in a Cinema in the Sydney Blue Mountains with a pair of Jubilee@535 as Main Left & Right. The result is of the scale in every possible way. We don't actually know how loud it will go as when you start flinching and blinking when things blow up in the movie you don't really need to go any louder. Then when you play them really really softly it's all there just the same. Fully Horn loaded is my absolute Favourite and a must have in the subs. The Album Voice by Hiromi was sensational. Must take some Bach next time.

In my opinion I second everything DJK has provided on this and thank you for the concise details.

Colossal is a very accurate description of how they sound for me. When we got the cinema system up and running we initially spent some time listening to only the Jubs with a variety of tracks and then eventually we had the bright idea to turn it up louder to see what that was like. It was same but louder. For myself, I found there was no desire to turn up the volume as when it's that REAL the volume level is not relevant. We did turn it up, eventually quite a lot while setting maximum system level limiters and we did not get to full power. Sharp transients could be strongly felt in the cinema seats. The thought that crosses mind frequently is "do we really need the centre speaker?". The capacity of the Jubs surpassed my expectations and I will create a pre-set to blend the centre channel into left and right jubs and shut down the centre channel speaker. I get the experience that the uninterrupted sound stage between the jubs would make a virtual centre channel possible. My second visit to fine tune the system is tentatively this Thursday and I'm very very much looking forward to that. The preliminary some what rushed setup has had only complimentary comments from a variety of different uses so far. It is a cinema with a live stage and includes use for conferencing, gymnastic performance and live bands. So my opinion is REAL 3D PANAVISION SOUND where the sound does not appear to come from the speakers.

Love your work Bob The expansion from one thing leads to another is inspirational, thank you.

Congratulations all round and best wishes for future expansion.

We are using the Allen & Heath iDR8 to route and process all inputs to the QSC DCA series amps. The main inputs will be a live mixer and a OPPO DVD.

Thanks for the heads up I will likely be ready when the 105 is released awesome

They are in the corners above the door ways on either side of the screen.

Jubilee@535 Mine are still in their boxes under the stairs.

These sound amazing I briefly got to configure the system for immediate use and will go back to do it properly. I did not really get much time to sit and listen the cinema is 40x40 feet approx 150 seats. the centre is the KPT-4350-MS flying above the screen in front of the pair of LFE I built yet to be painted.

backstage view

I used a Yamaha PC33001N http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=au.yamaha.com&asset_id=46661 to drive my latest experiment of a trio "see photo" with a combined mouth 4.5 foot by 2 foot. The amp is normally used to drive a pair of KPT-250's as DJ booth monitors so it was just convenient. We used an old bit of 10 amp 240 volt extension cord as the speaker lead. The 3 Drivers are the DVC385-88 wired series on each speaker and parallel the 3 speakers so that's 16ohm/speaker divided by 3 equals 5.333 ohm then that goes up due to the horn loading. The amp was in bridged configuration which delivers 1000watt into 8ohm. I set the system limiter to prevent the amp from exceeding the green lights on the meter scale. The reggae band playing that night was given the option of using the trio or not. For simplicity, I had programmed 2 pre-sets into the iDR8 system controller so the choice was just a press of one button. They were xover @ 60hz to a set of four KPT-684 xover @ 120hz to a set of eight KP-362's. The result was ridiculous. You get the impression they go down to zero hz when you just touch the bass drum gently or flick a string on the bass guitar. It just sounds ridiculous clean as and if you think you can imagine what it's going to sound like you really have no idea. Playing CD's was awesome but live instruments really does take your breath away. The drummer was a yes definitely use them I'm getting my ear plugs. So no high pass filters only extreme slope xover 60hz and careful time alignment of the system. I'm not getting those 3 back lol they have been confiscated due to producing ridiculous results. Each one is a unique individual non standard experiment. I really enjoyed building them. It's like re-living my teen age years when I last built my own speakers before I got my LaScala. I'm now going to build a pair of 24" wide for myself rather than a single 36" wide for my LFE and a pair of 15" wide using the RSS315HF-4 to see what that's like. I'm sure I will find a home for them after I have finished playing with them.