WMcD

Thank you Ray. I'll use it, correctly -- per your information, sometime soon. Sorry to divert from the thread. Gil

I for one think the copper color is good looking. I'll let the sonic attributes speak for themselves. The following is serious. Could the horns be plated to match? That would give a balanced look to the whole thing. Gil

Dear Horn Ed, I reflected only a microsecond on standing waves. We're not up for this pun-ishment. But don't terminate it. Gil

Ear drum. Nicely said. Maybe Klipsch can use it. Gil

I'm kinda itchy myself. However, I'll need the screen to appreciate the DVD. Therefore I'm forced to wait for both the player and screen price to come down a bit. Maybe a new receiver and speakers too. One driving point is some excellent pictures I've seen at Tweeters and the Sony showroom where a progressive scan DVD player is used. The prices seem to really be coming down fast. One guess is that there will be a new generation for Christmas. But when to pull the trigger on a big investment. I just don't know. On the other hand, it looks to me that if there is one interem purchase possible, the DVD player is it. If progressive scan is just 20 percent more, I'd go for it without hesitation. Gil This message has been edited by William F. Gil McDermott on 07-15-2001 at 08:45 PM

I join Al. K. in the "zip cord" is okay club. PWK seems to be a member too. However, the question posed might include a potential difficulty of physically connecting the big gauge wire to a banana plug or pin; and the amp. Of course this depends on what sort of hardware you can get your hands on, and how much you are willing to fool with it. Naturally it will be necessary to observe polarity when making the connection. Just to the extent that postive amp output gets connected to positive speaker input. The wire you suggest probably has some marking to identify a given wire. Either printing or striation on the jacket. If not you can keep track physically or with an ohm meter. You probably know that, but it is worth stating. Gil

Dear K-D: My apologies. I'm ignorant in many things. And I can appreciate the deserved rebuke. I thought you had an older unit and you were looking for a quick upgrade fix. So. You have a current unit from a reputable manufacturer. Yet the sound field is less than you hoped for. Perhaps others on the forum can give some advice on the particulars of sound stage and DSP systems from various manufacturers. None the less, your descriptions that the system is awesome, and yet the sound field sucks, don't give us much information to work on. "Sucks" doesn't convey specifics. =8^o. I'm not mocking you ; others have commented on localization problems. Seems as if you like the sound overall, but localizaion of images is not quite what it could be. I suspect this is not a product of a bad set of electronics or processing. Other manufacturer's units probably use the same techniques of processing. So I doubt there is going to be a big improvement by switching to other set of electronics if you're now at something current. Rather it may well be worth experimenting with speaker placement and tweeking the settings on the receiver. These are cost free and may well be worthwhile. People report good results in imaging, in two channel systems, by moving the speakers out from against the wall. Of course, this is applicable to HT. Then the distance and balance settings on the HT receiver would have to be reset. Give it a try before going into more electronics. Regards, Gil

I don't disagree with you Ray. However, the big corner horns come closer to what I hear in a concert hall than anything else. I must report that the Speakerlab corner horns owned by my brother in law have fooled me a couple of times. Recently I was checking out a wiring problem by playing the soundtrack from a movie where a school bell was reproduced. I was right up against them. My first impression was that this was a new feature of the home alarm system. The other situation was when we were all listening to movie and I dozed off. There was the reproduced sound of a classic W.E. model 500 telephone ringer which woke me up. The impression was very much that there was an incoming phone call. It is a tribute to the midrange, rather than the bass. This is my parting shot on the subject. However, Ray, please correct me. When one is in retreat and fires off an arrow it is not at parting shot, but something close in spelling. Can you help? Gil

Dave, Calm down buddy. You have a couple of real gems and you signed on to a good self help forum. Perhaps they were being sold because they were abuse and you've got something in need of repair. A fixer upper. I think it is possible the voice coil in the K-77 tweeter is ruined. But don't jump to conclusions. It is less likely you've got a cross over problem. I don't know your level of tinkering ability. This is good time to ramp up. You can't do much that would make things worse. First, check for connection between the crossover board and the tweeter. Sometimes the screws get loose or the connection corroded. Just snug things up with a screwdriver. Also, check that the wires are indeed connected to the tweeter. The next level of testing is to buy a multimeter from Radio Shack to check the resistance of the tweeter. This is pretty simple and I'd be happy to give you particulars if necessary. I'll assume your not experienced in this sort of thing at all. The multimeter will have a setting to test continuity. You touch the wands together and the multimeter buzzes (or tones) because there is an electrical connection. Then, all you have to do is touch the wands (test probes) across the terminals of the suspected tweeter. If the voice coil is burned out, you get no buzz. If it tones, you're okay, and the problem may lie elsewhere. If that is the case (no tone), the voice coil has been blown. However, Klipsch can fix this for you. Be calm, be happy. It ain't an unfixable problem. Regards, Gil

CU reports on anything have to be taken with a grain of salt. They do report the factors to their bottom line, and those sometimes allow a critical reader to make judgements contrary to theirs. E.g. a very fine circular saw I own got gigged by them for being too heavy. Doesn't matter to me. Many years ago they demoted a car I owned because it had a manual choke. Hey. I thought it was one of its advantages. CU does a lot of good work. However, it is mainsteam consumerism. What toaster oven to buy. With speakers, you should buy with your ears. The numbers don't tell the story. PWK has lamented that reviewers, some with an ax to grind, publish hard numbers which are difficult to reproduce in serious testing. And of course, the numbers are often contrary to what our ears tell us. Gil

I don't doubt what is being written. However, how do these voice coils get out of alignment to create a rubbing problem. Also, what is the source of foreign matter in the gap? Just wondering. Gil

First, I wouldn't worry about the roll off, if it is a true roll off. 15,000 is pretty high for human perception. Certainly don't judge the speakers as being defective because of your test. Please tell us about the signal source. My guess is that it is not 1/3 octave noise or warble frequencies because your data points are not at standard 1/3 octave spacing. I haven't done the math for 1/3 octaves. But consider that at a given center frequency, some of the warble or noise is going to be much higher, and the whole system response could be rolling off, and still within spec. The RS meter, I believe is not calibrated for much over 12,000, to my recall. Do you have the spec sheet? Is the response plus or minus 2 dB up to 12,000 or the like? More sophisticated test equipment has a better microphone. Even those have calibration curves which are balanced out in the testing software. For $50, RS can't do this. Bottom line. The RS meter when fed with 1/3 octave noise is a real boon to home testing. It lets us get some hard numbers. None the less, it is not up to lab spec equipment. Also, you have to be wary of the equipment providing the signal. Gil This message has been edited by William F. Gil McDermott on 07-13-2001 at 09:24 PM

I believe the original Dolby Surround System (matrix) could use 5.1 speakers. The "surround" used 10 mS of delay plus Dolby spec noise reduction. (My brother-in-law has a 4 channel Yammie.) But there was no reason to not have a center and a sub to make it 5.1. The matrix system had to be called "Dolby" because it used his spec for noise reduction in the surrounds. Pro-logic put in a bit more processing. The circuit would direct the sound to the calculated correct speaker. E.g., this signal just appears in the left channel input; so keep it out of the center. (Center would be L+R in the crude matrix.) Or, this signal is very much out of phase; let's send it to the surrounds (L-R) only. As you point out, still two channel input. Dolby Digital is form of digital multiple channel storage and transmission. Hence the processor doesn't have derive the 5.1 outputs from 2 channel input. Of course, "Dolby" refers to Ray Dolby. He worked on video recording for Ampex. Then designed and marketed several noise reduction systems. The most familiar is Dolby B which is used in cassette recording. Dolby C was used in studio tape machines. Gil This message has been edited by William F. Gil McDermott on 07-13-2001 at 09:00 PM

I don't know if this is a real problem. More imagined than real, I think. Yeah, a lot of things in the world used to be make out steel, and now they're plastic. With woofers, casting got more respect than stamped sheetmetal. And use of polymers and composits get even less respect. But really. Do we need the strenght of steel in this application? Further, modern composit materials have impressive strength. Like it or not, a lot of components in auto engines these days are "plastic" rather than steel. Has performance suffered from that? Like it or not, many speaker boxes are make of MDF rather than plywood. It works well enough when properly glued together. Another example of, arguable, cheapening. However, all the woofer frame has to do is hold a magnet, the spider and the diaphragm. If someone wants to come forward and present a known case of distortion of the basket or a mechanical failure, we'll have to take a closer look. Yeah, it is probably a matter of cost saving. We hope the saving goes into better components in other areas. By way of example, I'll probably keep on using expensive plywood in my home built units. Some of it is tradition. On the other hand, I can't claim that an identical unit make out of MDF will not perform pretty much the same, at significant cost saving. Just be happy Klipsch doesn't color the basket copper. That would really draw fire. =8^o Gil

I dunno what your Kenwood can do. I suspect there is no easy cheap fix. It seems to me that every midline HT receiver coming on on a monthy basis has more and better processing power at a cheaper price. So, there is no cheap outboard unit which is going to match or keep up with the march of progress. It is like trying to upgrade a two year old computer to match a new one. Can't be done. My suggestion would be to bite the bullet, buy a new $400 HT receiver at the mall store, or whatever you can afford. Gil

The question posed is a bit at odds with what is being reported in reply. I'm being picky. Poor performance of other speakers don't drive one to Klipsch, not having heard Klipsch previously. Rather, listening to Klipsch draws one to the realization that it is a superior design and other speakers have obvious shortcomings in comparison. This is why a single audition seems to be the definitive turning point. We've listened and heard the difference. Maybe it is like Plato's cave. The other speakers are shadows on the wall, Klipsch is like the reality in the daylight. Whoops, I've embarassed myself. Gil

You might consider just making up "backs" for the K-Horns out of plywood. I did so for my home builts which were otherwise based on the Speakerlab plans. They work well enough. Let me preface that I have all the respect possible for PWK. However, the false corner seems to be a bit un-necessary and a hold over from an IP issue. It is my suspicion that the patent on the K-Horn rested mostly on the feature that the back is not closed off and can be placed in a separate structural corner which seals it off. This feature appears, as I recall, in most of the "claims" of the patent. Some go to other aspects of the design. (There is really no secret to the legal nature of the claims if you read closely. And in any event, the patent is long since lapsed. One implication is that much of the protection of the patent could have been avoided by a design which simply closed off the back. But the fox in Hope wasn't letting on to that.) Therefore, to honor the novely of the design, PWK was forced to design a false corner which was not a structural part of the horn. However, that is not to say that sealing off the back with plywood, suitably braced will not give the same performance as the false corner. You'll note that the Jubilee has a closed off back. With the exception of the ShortHorn / Rebel, no other Klipsch designed horn used an open back, to my knowledge. Regards, Gil

I think the Y-connector will work well. My understanding is that the output of the CD and MD will have a low impedance. Meaning that the level will not be altered by the load. The input to the receiver will be a high impedance. Meaning it will not present much of a load. The bottom line is that the CD and MD output should be able to drive the input to both amps at once. Probably. Some caveats. Maybe things are not quite as optimized in fact in your units as I describe. Two loads might be okay but three or four could cause problems. If the worry is, "Will I burn out something by experimenting with the Y-connector?" Answer, no, not likely at all. The most likely problem effect you'll encounter is that the treble falls off with the Y connector in place. Let me suggest an alternative, which might work better and only requires another dual RCA connector cable. See if you have a "tape out" on one of your receivers. You can plug the CD and MD into that receiver, then feed the the tape out to the other receiver to an Aux-1 or CD or VCR input. Naturally, select whatever you're feeding into. The alternative has the benefit that you'll only have to switch the input selector of the first receiver to select between CD and MD. Unfortunately, the tape out level is not going to be effected by the volume control of the driving receiver. Therefore you'll have to adjust volume with both. You might check owner's manuals of both receivers to see if there is a line level output which is affected by the volume control. I doubt it, but don't know. I've seen some gadgets to allow the speaker output to be used as a line level output. That might work for you if a single volume control becomes an issue. Let us know what you find. Regards, Gil This message has been edited by William F. Gil McDermott on 07-12-2001 at 08:30 PM

A friend brought me to a showroom with Klipschorns in 1974. They sounded like nothing else before or since. Everything else sounded inferior. Gil

Well, I didn't mean to say anything profound. Maybe it is the different drum we hear. Gil

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with '70's equipment. I use a JVC receiver and a Sony receiver. Many posters here have a favorite brand of electronics. Just as folks have a favorite brand of car or beer. It is all good natured. People debate whether one amp sounds good, better, or best, versus another, or others. That has been going on since long before the 70s. Usually it is about current models; whenever current is. No consensus has been reached. Good luck on creating your system. Gil This message has been edited by William F. Gil McDermott on 07-08-2001 at 08:15 PM

The nice thing about the break in debate: Either there is an improvement over time. Or there is not an improvement over time. But after time, the issue becomes moot. Gil

Tinkers, explorers, experimenters, iconoclasts, home builders, dreamers, etc. are definitely on the side of the funny farm (fence) they want to be. And I like the company here. The normal people are on the outside, looking in. Gil

Amen on the center channel. It can make a very good system into an excellent system. Gil

Gee, where are the real experts to answer this question? My guess is that the model number is Heresy Industrial something. Perhaps Product, Production. You can telephone 1-800-KLIPSCH and ask to talk to Trey Canon during normal business hours. He is a very nice fellow who is a font of knowledge. Killer sense of humor, too. The people in Hope, AK will be pleased to hear from you. My guess is that there were few, if any, electrical modifications from the home unit. The box and grill were probably beefed up. Maybe your question is whether there is any factory modification incorporated in the industrial unit which compromises its best performance as a home unit. I dunno. But don't hesitate to ask Trey. Put together a list of thoughtful questions and dial. Edit and PS: Shows how much I know. Please note posting times of mine and the above. I was slow composing. Still, it might be a good idea to ask Trey for a spec sheet. Gil This message has been edited by William F. Gil McDermott on 07-08-2001 at 07:33 PM