hwatkins

Long overdue. Dut what has this got to do with Paradigm? Oops - wrong thread.....

I think you are OK at the 69hz range. My experience - while voice dialog does not reach the low freqs, quite a bit of action sequences (this is not just applicable to action movies, but also to emphasis in any well sound engineered movie - the door shutting, etc.) do go lower than the human voice and need to be localized for effects to work. However, somewhere around 80hz we begin to have a hard time telling where the LF is coming from and we use visuals to tell our mind where the sound originates. That said - a good subwoofer and a setting in bass management for all LF to go to sub around 80hz would be a good match for the centers you mentioned - expecially if the speaker can 'easily' cover to 69hz with little loss in db. Since the management of the energy used to drive speakers is only reasonably able to be effective in a range (that is to say the circuits cause dramatic reductions in db - not a specific cutoff point) then a speaker's ability to effortlessly produce sound in a 10 - 20 db range around the management point makes for all intents a seamless transition between speakers (same holds true for Xover inside speaker boxes). You would want the center set to small so it does not compete with the sub. Others can get into the scientific details and I apologize for any foray into electronics that is wrong - but I do think you will be OK on the LF.

I am glad to see that you 'do not read'. If you ever decide to start a 'do not write' fad, drop me a note.

I don't have an answer Griff - I was in a dead heat toss up audition with Denon and Yamaha a couple of years ago and went with the Denon. The decision was not based on the bright issue (I did notice the Yammie was did seem to offer a little more HF detail), but based on how the features were applied. If I had a reason to use the effects (simulated sound fields) I would have gone with Yamaha - it is more of an art form with them where the Denon folks seem to put it there because it is on their competition. I am also a little nostolgic and remember when Yammies were the 'best' mass market SS offering for high efficiency speakers in the seventies and early eighties as HK was trying to build a market. I do think they are the two best moderately priced SS solutions, but that opinion alone should raise a decent debate...

I too like those general conversations. I also helped feed the last fire, but quite honestly enjoyed the thread - some of my favorite sages had some good things to say. The instigator of the post even had the liberal and conservative contingencies together for a common cause. Yeah the name calling was out of hand, but our mouses have a fast forward button after all. I am not sure why the General area is off the air, but let's remember - you all have remote control capabilities and don't have to watch the program. The caveat - there is no method of knowing the audience (young, old, etc.) and some of the language was indesputably full of words and thoughts that I would like to be sitting next to my child when first exposed to them. All said - that isn't enough to stop the discourse (although the cost of storage space is). Lastly, regardless of my opinion, it is Klipsch's board. Their rights here supercede mine...

Dave - you've got mail.

Outstanding stuff---- A very good friend of mine picked up some sort of virus during his Vietnam stint that extended through his service as White House Telecommunications director for the Reagan years that requires him to collect Asian Dragon artwork (it must be a virus - otherwise how do you explain the illness?). He introduced me to the outstanding beauty of that part of the world's art with an attention to detail that is disarmingly consistent. Good luck on your next assignment. Your gift to the parents is so nice - I hope my job as a parent is good enough to get that sort of reward someday. The thought is so loving that you have probably assured a high profile in their will. And yes to all that have read my off topic posts - That good friend is a staunch conservative Republican and I am a very dedicated liberal. And good friend he is - it just reminds us all that from a foundation standpoint we are more alike than different. Lastly Ranger - serving this country is, in the final analysis, one of the most rewarding things a person can do. Thanks for watching our backside...

Yes to the bass issue. That is why most compensate through various methods of Xover, speakers, porting and acoustical treatment. djk has it right, and if the speakerbox and room box are golden ratio you will have a decent match. Couple this with solidly matched speakers and things get really nice. Knowing the effect of the ratio can allow you to match your preferred coloration to your ears, so I suggest doing as I do at times - build your own box and evaluate the results for yourself. Some things will get discarded, but the trip is sometimes more fun than arriving at your destination...

Great stuff Scooterdog - A quick look at the specs says this ought to sound very nice. I was intrigued from your start and could not see a downside - as long as the Xovers were done in such a way as to be sure that the roll to the speakers was niether abrupt nor soft. When you get a chance, talk a little about what you get in off-axis seating. Quite a stir is always around the horizonal two woofer approach with many saying that off-axis suffers from spikes or localization. I found it to be quite different than folks had forecasted and that off-axis was the greatest strength for my speaker. Good looking work - let us know if you are now hooked on the DIY so we can help you spend inordinate sums and time on another speaker or two...

Hello Fish - Here is my deal on forums. You spend quite some time matching opinions - that is to say you find folks whose opinions on the same stuff you have opinions on - and seeing if there is a consistency with their and your opinions. You can go one step further and do some fact matching on these same folks. You should find that this group of folks will be excellent guides on things you haven't auditioned, and that they do so with an ear similar to yours. Really simple. Your responsibility as an active forum participant is to repay these folks with your opinions and reviews. You will gradually build a list of folks to ignore as well. I believe this tact will give you excellent results. It is also a decent blood pressure management technique.

Yep on the wireless - just set up for my daughters loptop yesterday (the rest of my home/business network is wired). I will be doing the same for my laptop today (this household tends to have one or two extra of everything - cars, speakers, recievers, computers, printers, etc.). As to making the server a router - I suggest not. Yes you can do that, but from then on you will have to be sure that you remember its vital role in the network whenever you make changes. These devices were more explicitly named file and print servers when first used - that is an excellent way to use them. I would want my server to operate as storage, application and control with the network able to operate independently. In the long run, this will be the most error free and flexible configuration. This applies to the small home network as well as the largest corporate networks. KISS is still the motto for successful computing infrastructure. Lecture over. If you really want to get me started, let's discuss strategic technology infrastructures - I become very much geek like...

Hello Formica - Yes, I used an unmodified Type E Xover. Klipsch kindly provided the T/S (I believe it is what djk posted)of the K22 and I went on a little bit of search for a near match. I used a couple of programs to measure various speakers and then used my box size as a comparative with the standard Heresy woofer and Heresy box size. There were a couple of mid woofers that got close enough, so I started monitoring the used market. I ended up with the Fostex 168 Sigma. They are in parallel and are very close to the original efficiency (my target) of the K22. All is good except, with my self imposed box size, I get a bit of a hump at 120hz that is obviously different than the Heresy. Otherwise, the box is tuned to support the rolloff to the sub at about 80hz (this is to say I tuned the box to 60hz). The hump is probably due to the woofers being spaced for an 87hz tuned box, but you have to make some compromises somewhere along the way... BTW - I paid extra for full range speakers, but it pays off in the lack of struggle at the Freqs I need - very smooth roll to the mid freqs. The fostex woofers are very pleasing. The specific speaker also had a high enough QTS to keep me from having to worry too much about the need for horn loading (that may not be the case with the newer 168E Sigma). My newest speakers downstairs I built with Eminence 12 inchers and if I had the space I would have loved to use them - really nice woofers...

I have done the same as several, with my setup as a K77 tweeter, K55 w/700 horn, E network and 2 fostex woofers - all to match my all around Heresy. Works very nicely. Pics can be found in several places (I am not on my primary puter at the moment)in forum. I think the Scooterdog thread has some, other wise just search my handle and look for titles like 'modified center xxx' and you should find some. I cannot say enough about the overall improvement. I got my stuff off Ebay and private transactions. I always bought stuff in pairs, but every spare item is now in the hands of some other fellow Klipscher. I simply suggest you go for it. The low freqs are the hardest to match exactly, but are the less noticable to the ear. matching high and mid freqs from the center to your heritage config is extraordinarily pleasing and will impress your friends. Using a good sub will really make the LF compromises seem trivial...

What the heck - use the whole wall - that's what I did and I really like the look. Picture is attached

Yep - this is a can't lose situation. Either choice will leave you smiling and congratulating yourself on smart use of your money. I listened to both SVS and the VTF 3 and stayed with the SVS 20 - 39 PCi. The reason at the time? - Simply not enough difference between the two to justify a $300 price difference for the HSU. Cheers - don't hesitate and get a new subwoofer. When your lips are touching the bottom of your ears you will know it was the right call...

Yeah Chuckears - I have been on other boards and have taken some shots recently on both my stance on having a center speaker and the need for timbre matching. I can only assume these folks have never heard a timbre matched, well set up good center speaker. If they had and still profess that they have better sound otherwise or continue to downplay the results compared to their favorite mismatched speaker, then they go on my list of folks to not listen to. There is absolutely (and those that know me well know I rarely speak in such dogmatic terms) no better HT sound than well setup, timbre matched center speakers. The added benefit for many of us is the center fill for music, with out losing stereo imaging integrity. To become HornEd's 'Minnie me' you go the step forward and timbre match you sides as well and you get folks raving about your HT - even those that previously called horns harsh, earbleeding abnormalities... Wow - the caffiene must be extra special this morning. I rarely wake up in such an evagelistic mood....

I found the best placement to be within 18 inches of the heighth of your mains mid/high freq speakers, regardless of top or bottom. In my experiment this really help keep stuff smoothly blended and not localized (unless intended to be so via the dolby program). I actually use 12 inches as my guide.

When you get to the message input screen and above the text box a button says 'attach file' - you have to do this before composing - choose the file from your puter to attach and that be it.

More of an answer than anyone wants, but here goes... This resurrection of jew bashing started with the American Christian Conservative supported attempt about 10 -15 years ago to discredit stories about the holocaust. A couple of books and many articles that more or less said 'thou doeth protest too much' made the rounds. The christian conservatives (mostly) finally succoumbed to facts, but those that practice remaining ignorant and searching for ways to raise their own value at the expense of others have held on to this theory that jews are liars and whiners. As it hits more folks and the internet remains free to all, you will see it pop up more often. Irreconcilable ignorance should always be ignored or banished...

I too have listened to various Rocket setups. Much to the chagrin of others - I find the Rockets to be the best price/performance cones (that I have heard) and they are darn attractive in some of their more formal attire. The owners have some of the same passion and reality checks (we know what we are selling and who we are selling it to) as SVS and HSU. That makes them an attractive choice from a customer service stance. I have visited off and on (electronically) with the owner - Mark Shifter - and find that his opinions and reviews of the same things I have auditioned run similar to mine. Further some other folks I have grown to trust give him high marks as well. There is no comparison between Klipsch and Rockets from a preference stance. Very few folks that really like the higher freqs through horns will opt for the Rockets, regardless of their price/performance value (although Gordon Groff very sincerely did so and is a great person to visit with on the subject). They are cones and will definitely be much softer than the Klipsch. My big however here is that the high freqs on the Rockets don't have that annoying tinniness I find on almost all cones trying to get detail in the higher end. Lastly, Shifter's (the owner) preference in personal use loudspeakers - big old horns. I believe he is a Khorn owner (if memory serves me well). His intent was not to compete for 'hornies' but to make a darn good cone speaker that is inexpensive, attractive and true to specs. I believe he has succeeded. BTW - Mark, if I have put words in your mouth that don't belong and you are trolling this board, please correct me. I will only cower in shame for a couple of months....

Interestingly the Baffle design program I looked at indicated angling each side woofer toward each other and I am unsure of why this works better on the horizonal mounted speakers - I do know that folks who have proven to have similar tastes in sound as I do, and whose advice has proven accurate in the past, swear to the baffle design program that gave the results. I have not spent the time to delve into the mathematical reasoning (I did so on Xover stuff and found that I wasn't prepared for two significant headaches in a row). Speaking entirely from memory (one that is much affected by extremely fun times, or so I was told, during the seventies) the spacing of the woofers was done according to D'Amoto (spelling?) theory - I only calced it once - that is something along the lines that the center of the woofer drivers are at least as far apart as 1/2 the wave length of your preferred tuning. Interestingly this can be different than the tuning of the box - In my case I tuned the box to 60hz, but since I manage the bass to the sub at 80hz, that was my guide to the spacing (I even compromised a little more to physical limits set by the golden rule for box dimensions and the spacing is for around 87hz). Compromise? Yep, but I have found that compromise is the rule in this hobby. In my case I have slightly humped the center at 120hz but I have a very seamless rolloff to the sub. And as I said - that broaden sweet spot helps folks to the sides have a much clearer center experience. Wow - too much caffeine (I now must resort to legal drugs) and too many words for early Saturday. My apologies...

Well .... Here goes. Everytime I speak positively about what I hear someone tells me it must be my imagination, but what the heck. My set top WM/TW configuration sounds quite different from the account above. This is a Fostex, K77 and K55 arrangement. Prior to building the arrangement I trialed a heresy to see what sound I most wanted - the Heresy on its side was much like described - a much narrower sweet spot. The Heresy was excelent either right side up or upside down (my favorite), it just wouldn't fit. The WM/TW has a slightly wider sweet spot than the upright Heresy. Significantly wider than the sideways Heresy. At least in my situation, and with my ears, I find an expanded sweet spot - not narrower. While I horizonally mount the horns to help this, I do not see how cones would respond differently. Big HOWEVER - You have to space the woofers far enough from each other on the baffle, or angle each end of the baffle to keep from getting major humps in the LF with the horizonal configuration.

Happy BDay - BTW middle age happens after 51 (next year it will be 52, etc.) so you are safe for now...

Well... I have to show my shots. If you follow the link below you can see both my naked center channel speaker and finished on top of the set. I used two Fostex 168 Sigmas for woofers and like Cyclone I couldn't be more pleased with the results. If you go on down the page you see the HT setup (really this is my music, TV and Theater all in one). Since Cyclone has a unique rear (side) speaker mounting I thought I would show a ceiling alternative. http://home.earthlink.net/~hwatkins/id63.htm Just for fun take a look at my latest project - a couple of 2 Pi speakers (non horn) to hone my wood working skills. Nice sounding two ways with an Eminence woofer and Motorola Tweeter. Probably building some horns next winter... http://home.earthlink.net/~hwatkins/id62.htm

I piddled with placement quite some time (I ended up with a modified Heresy center) and I found that the best setting for dialog clarity was when the two horns were nearer ear level. This meant that I liked it either on its side or as you are thinking, upside down. For general viewing the horns laying horizonal left a wider dispersion that made the center much more effective off axis (that would match your upside down). The coloration from the different placement of the woofers was near negligible. Lastly - this is above an RPTV and I have a preference for the Heresy to be up well off the floor (mains as well). If under the TV I suggest sitting right ways and angled up.