Norm Mowry Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 I have a pair of Synergy F-3's that are bi-amped and a Synergy Sub-10 subwoofer hooked into an Onkyo TX-SR706 receiver. Now the receiver has this automatic equalizer setup that is supposed to detect the best audio dynamics for one's set-up/room via use of a small microphone one places throughout the room. My problem is that after running this auto-setup (which Onkyo refers to as "Audyssey"), it turns down the volume of my F-3s to where they are at half, and then virtually shuts off the subwoofer. What gives? The damnedest thing is this: it sounds pretty good after it runs through the auto-setup, but I have to push the receiver's volume to about 80 to get reasonable volume from the speakers (though I admit reasonable volume to me is just shy of face-peeling). Kind regards, Norm Mowry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzorn Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Are your front speakers set to large or small? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Mowry Posted December 1, 2008 Author Share Posted December 1, 2008 They're set to large. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 If your Onkyo found your F3s as "Full Range," I would suggest to go into the Bass MGMT and adjust all of your speakers so that there is a crossover around 80 Hz (possibly 60 Hz for your mains) and that you have it set to LFE (not +mains). If the trim on your subwoofer is WAY low (on the Denons that happens after the "-12"trim setting) then you may be starting the EQ process with your subwoofer up too high (on the sub itself---turn it to about 1/2 way before running Audyssey). EDIT: They're set to large. I didn't think Onkyo used that language and instead use the jargon "Full Range." I would set them to small and then check the Crossover. Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Mowry Posted December 1, 2008 Author Share Posted December 1, 2008 How stupid of me. I had a 506 that allowed me to set them to large or small and on the 506, they were set to large. I upgraded to the 706 and you are absolutely right: the front's were set to "Full Range" and the 706 doesn't seem to have a large/small setting. The last time I had a technically superior receiver was in the 70's, and all I needed to contend with was a balance knob, and bass and treble settings. Aside from that I had a turntable that I ran through two Marlboro guitar amplifiers that I still believe is the cause for some minor hearing loss today. Now everything is home theater, and I rarely watch TV, so there is a ton of settings that are useless to me. All I wanted was a ripping audio system with tweeters that didn't blow out. Oh God. I have so much I have so much to learn. I didn't realize that I'd need a remedial science class to set-up my stereo, though I guess that is what I would call a "happy complaint." Someone would do well to produce an audio system that has a shitload of power and three simple settings: bake, sizzle and fry. ) Kind regards, Norm Mowry P.s.: Many thanks for your gracious assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Hey it's really not that hard and once you have it setup you will have enjoyment for a while. I understand where your desire to crank it as loud as it will go comes from and let others tell you about being able to hear without pain when you get to be their age (which btw, they will be right. ;-) I don't know how much benefit (read, I don't think you are getting much) you are achieving by bi-amping but I would suggest going into where it says "Full Range" and adjusting the crossover as I described above (and start with your sub's dial turned approx 1/2 way before eqing) and then post back your results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Mowry Posted December 1, 2008 Author Share Posted December 1, 2008 I took the fronts, set them to 60Hz and the LPE/LPF to 80Hz and ran the Audessy EQ auto-setup again. It still turns down my fronts to -10Db and the sub (whose volume and gain is set half-way with zero-degree phasing) down to -14 Db. Why it turns my speakers levels down so much is beyond me. Norm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Mowry Posted December 1, 2008 Author Share Posted December 1, 2008 As an aside, my Onkyo manual tells me to consult my speaker manual to find optimum crossovers for my speakers, but my Klipsch "manuals" are more like spec sheets and tell me nothing other than - basically - they can be set in many configurations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockOn4Klipsch Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 I'm surprised no one is talking about reference settings. The reason the onkyo's audyssey setup puts the"levels" so low is due to the speakers effieciency. When you run he audyssey setup or any for that matter 0 dB becomes the reference point. THe point in which you are suppose to listen. With efficient speakers it means the reciever does less work to acheive the same SPL hence the lower level setting for your speakers. I run my setup at about 0dB with the relative setting and with absolute which looks like you're running is close to the 80 area. if you want it louder up the level settings. In the reciever my speakers are -12 dB for FR and FL, -11 dB Center ( I bumped the center up 1 dB), -9 dB for SR and SL and -10 dB on the Sub (bumped it up 5dB). Our room is like 2700ft^3, This bothered me at first, running them at the reference level but it's where the actually sound best. If I bump the FL and FR to 0dB or in the +dB in the level calibration and run it close to the new reference level say -12dB it seems like it runs right thorugh the amp and sounds bad. just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 I took the fronts, set them to 60Hz and the LPE/LPF to 80Hz and ran the Audessy EQ auto-setup again. It still turns down my fronts to -10Db and the sub (whose volume and gain is set half-way with zero-degree phasing) down to -14 Db. Why it turns my speakers levels down so much is beyond me. Norm I don't understand the subs -14dB....What is the lowest it will go before the sub gets no signal? On the Denons it is -12 dB. I agree that your speakers are efficient but that sub number is what doesn't sound right. What are the levels it sets your other speakers and how many positions do you do on setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Mr. Norm, You said;"I didn't realize that I'd need a remedial science class to set-up my stereo". That is the problem, you don't have a stereo anymore. Check out the 2 channel forum (It's the forum for those of us that are multi-channel challenged). I'm a dedicated 2 channel guy, I'll be damned, if I'm buying 7 channels of expensive gear, I can't afford the 2 channels of the stuff I have! Hope you got your answer. Thanx, Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockOn4Klipsch Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 on Onkyos the sub trim goes to -15dB. The sub will be much dependent upon location and the gain on the sub. with the pb13 ultra i have, gain is set to about 30 percent or so about 10 oclock posistion. The higher the gain and the more effiecient the speaker the sub will be cut out to perform on the same level. so if the gain on the sub is say half way up it will reach reference levels sooner than the other speakers, so if the sub is set to high and the rest of the speakers reach ref point sooner, the sub will take the loss in order not to over power the rest of the setup. if 5 speakers are on par with one another the computer will not average out to keep the sub in the running instead it will set the 5 speakers to reference level and dock the sub as much as possible which still may be hot if the gain is set to high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 So to paraphrase what the above poster said [] try turning the gain level down on the sub and re-running it. If you read any of the official Onkyo threads on the AVSForum that's one of the most frequently discussed items. And as others have said, if it really bothers you, simply raise the levels. After I ran my Audyssey setup I simply raised everything so that whatever speaker was the least efficient was at the 0.0dB mark and the others were set lower depending on their initial readings. So if my center speaker was originally set to -6.0dB and my side surrounds were set to -2.0dB then I adjusted the settings so that my center speaker was at -4.0dB and my side surrounds were at 0.0dB. I didn't like the fact that I had to turn the volume level up so high either. For me it was a psychological thing. Then again, I never listen to anything with the volume set at an odd number unless it ends in 5. [:S] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 I took the fronts, set them to 60Hz and the LPE/LPF to 80Hz and ran the Audessy EQ auto-setup again. It still turns down my fronts to -10Db and the sub (whose volume and gain is set half-way with zero-degree phasing) down to -14 Db. Why it turns my speakers levels down so much is beyond me. Norm What are you using for center and surrounds? If nothing, make sure you've told the receiver this. Your Audissey might be trying to balance the levels of all the speakers, therefore your system can only be as loud as it's LEAST efficient speaker. Or what HO4K says- forget the numbers on the reference levels and LISTEN, how does it sound at -10 and -14? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Mowry Posted December 2, 2008 Author Share Posted December 2, 2008 This seems to be the most likely scenario. I'm going to follow your lead as it seems to address my issue with Audessey. Great help you've been and I thank you for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Mowry Posted December 2, 2008 Author Share Posted December 2, 2008 I don't have anything but the two F3's up front and a subwoofer. Audessey looks for all speakers on its first pass. Subsequent passes will only check the speakers it has found. How's it sound? It sounds shallow since Audessey castrates the output from the subwoofer. I went back in after running Audessey and adjusted the levels and that seems to help most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Went crazy with my TH-SR 705 in living room.... Finally gave up and did it manually; took about an hour or so tweaking, but it sounds the way I like it. Volume level for normal "stuff" is now between 36 and 42, dependent on the DTV channel. Max volume on a movie, e.g. "Ironman" is 55-60. Speakers are all Cornwalls. Same thing on the 705 in the MBR. Just did it manually until is sounded right for my wife. All of the settings are + 3dB of each other; no subs so I cannot recommend anything on that end of it. The SR's are only used for movies, DTV, etc. I believe the Audyssey system is ok for simple HT setup where the speakers are in the "classic" configuration. Other thing I did when setting them up was to go through each sound setting and see what sounds best. For DTV, news, etc. "all channel stereo" works fine. For movies, etc, it's a toss up on some, some sound weird, others ok, etc., but one of the the "Neo" settings is best in the LR. Just my observations. Other than that, great AV/HT receiver for the price, reliable, easy to use by my wife and kids (after I set eveything up...) and no problems so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shmoe Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Someone would do well to produce an audio system that has a shitload of power and three simple settings: bake, sizzle and fry. ) LOL...... Excellent [Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Trey Cannon Posted December 4, 2008 Klipsch Employees Share Posted December 4, 2008 I think your main problem is tursting the receiver to set things up. I have never found one of thoes "auto tweek" things that work right. I would run the speakers as full range with sub. It will add to the mid band and not mess with the "eq" of the speaker. The sub only needs about 300 mV input to run full output. Therefore, I understand it turning the sub down. Your ear is your friend. For get the auto setup and do it your self. Most receivers change the max level out in relation to the channel level. If you have a max volume setting of +18 db with the channel levels set to 0db when you change the channel levels to + 3 your master max vloume setting will go down to +15 db. You only have "X" amount of output. Changing pre and post gain will not change that. Some receivers will not have sub output when the mains are on "large" or when the system is in "stereo" mode. Therefore, if you set the system to "small" you will have sub in multi channel mode but not in stereo mode. Most of how the receiver works is a guess, as I have not palyed with that receiver. But most work this way. BTW: thoes speaker can play at "large" with no problems up to about 26 volts. They can give a max out of around 115 - 118 db in your size of room. My job on that project was to brake the speakers. (and I am good breaking things) They were ran for 8 hr @ 26.8Volts driven with the standard IEC 268.5. There are very few times that music will drive a speaker as hard as the IEC standard, if ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I think your main problem is tursting the receiver to set things up. I have never found one of thoes "auto tweek" things that work right. I would run the speakers as full range with sub.BTW: thoes speaker can play at "large" with no problems up to about 26 volts. They can give a max out of around 115 - 118 db in your size of room. My job on that project was to brake the speakers. (and I am good breaking things) They were ran for 8 hr @ 26.8Volts driven with the standard IEC 268.5. There are very few times that music will drive a speaker as hard as the IEC standard, if ever. a.k.a he wants you to rock out with your cock out!! Live it large!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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