Deang Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 That creates another problem though -- reflections from all of the surrounding hard surfaces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Dean, may I suggest headphones? Yes you may. I'm real fond of my Sennheiser 650's, which I use for any listening that I do after 11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Which means it just dropped to zero in someone else's. I don't want to be misunderstood, I really like the sound of good horn systems, but they're extremely expensive to get right, and even with that -- still leaves half or more of the music you own barely listenable. I miss the Jubilees, but I'm listening to a lot more music these days -- which is kind of ironic since I decided to ditch 2-channel and go the HT route. I've gone through this whole thread and can't find why there is a mandatory 300Hz crossover point for this horn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I've gone through this whole thread and can't find why there is a mandatory 300Hz crossover point. It's round-off error, it actually should be 321Hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I've gone through this whole thread and can't find why there is a mandatory 300Hz crossover point for this horn. Please elaborate. What mandatory 300 XO point? Who said anything was mandatory? jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 The reference to 300Hz kept coming up, so I thought that's what someone was shooting for. Isn't that why Jeremy sent you those big JBL's -- to see if they would go that low on the new horn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 The reference to 300Hz kept coming up, so I thought that's what someone was shooting for. Isn't that why Jeremy sent you those big JBL's -- to see if they would go that low on the new horn? Yes So what do you mean by: I've gone through this whole thread and can't find why there is a mandatory 300Hz crossover point for this horn. Please elaborate. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 lol, I just did. Maybe I worded it poorly -- I'm under the impression that someone wants a horn/driver combination that gets down to 300Hz. I'm just asking why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 lol, I just did. Maybe I worded it poorly -- I'm under the impression that someone wants a horn/driver combination that gets down to 300Hz. I'm just asking why. Thank you. I understand now. I'm sorry, but you started into this thread with "compression drivers suc", then with a positive comment about DR Speakers ,then into a statement about "mandatory 300Hz with this horn". Just for the record......I love other speakers w/o horns..... There are forum members who have expressed an interest to have a horn that will play down to 300Hz. With the "desire" or "fantasy" or "false" belief that they would like to hear that frequency of music coming from a midrange compression driver and horn vs a horn loaded or bass reflex bass bin. I'm not defending that logic with this thread. But yes...the design goal was to reach 300Hz...with some other goals in mind. If you have some constructive criticism...lets hear it. I'm sure others would like to hear it as well if you feel that this goal isn't a good idea. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 small clarification..... If you have some constructive criticism...lets hear it. I'm sure others would like to hear it as well if you feel that this goal isn't a good idea. For example....Mike Bentz and I in the past dicussed the benefit of a cone driver on a horn vs a midrange compression driver playing frequencies down to 300Hz. Or maybe John Warren may defent direct radiator doing that. The thread was to show this tractrix horn and "grossly" what it could do. I haven't even listened to music with it yet. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capo72 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 It is my plan to use this midhorn/driver combo to crossover at approx 300 hz. It all really depends on what kind of results I get from my DR bass bin. It may sound like $hit having the mid driver playing that low, but I want to hear it for myself. I think having more of the vocal range covered by that big phenolic diaphragm is going to be a good thing. I do not own k-horns, but my understanding is one of their flaws is the bass bin's inability to play well up to the 400 hz crossover point. If that is true would this horn/driver not be a good solution? My thought as a DIY'er is anytime we can extend the frequency range of any driver to tweak crossover points, why not try it. you may hit on something eventually, right? You are likely to solve a problem by being unconventional and determined as you are by being brilliant. I'm very rarely brilliant so I have to take the other route which generally involves alot of trial end error, and i'm fine with that as long as I learn something from my errors. Jeremy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 JC, I see. I said they suck because I was following this thread and thinking about what a pain in butt they are to work with. You take a driver, put it on a horn, take some FR measurements -- and you still only have part of the picture. I think it's frustrating. What we also need is the distortion data -- how well the driver is loading above cutoff. It's hard to talk crossover points and how sharp to cut it without that information -- it's really ends up just being a best guess. I don't really have any criticisms, just that if I was doing this I would cross a half octave above cutoff. Ever seen this? http://ldsg.snippets.org/HORNS/storede.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 "Suggetions welcome." since you asked for suggestions...after you are done with the traditional design tweeter mounting....do another with the tweeter voice coil in line with the mid driver vioce coil...a simple bracket would work fine. I am not sure how to do this as it would have massive reflection from the mid horn. I think the way you did it with a separate mount on top of the box is the way to go, if time alignement is a concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 just that if I was doing this I would cross a half octave above cutoff. Well. I won't be getting any distortion data that's for sure. Did ALK get any on his trachorn? Isn't that horn with an Fc of 300Hz? So are you suggesting an XO there with 450Hz......esp since there is no published info on the trachorns distortion. I've heard of the rule about XO at double the Fc of a horn before. I'll have to look at that link tonight. Pain in the butt....not really. GotHover did all the labor and does it well. Sure...I did the math and design...but did it out of enjoyment....no pain there. If it sounds good....well hey....forget distortion data. Just listen to the music whether a bad recording or not. John W. "rounds off at 321Hz". Can you tell me how you came up with that? Or were you poin' fun at dean? thanks jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Pics of the MidTrax stand REV 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 close up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Cutout for Crites tweeter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 He's not poking fun at me, he's taking a shot at the Khorn -- he's referring to that big peak before it drops off. 300Hz is a good place for the transition if you can do it without causing problems someplace else. I don't know, I still see good output until 450Hz, and SPL at that point is almost as much as it is at 40Hz with room gain factored in. It's easier to lift output in the area of falling response and trap the peak then it is to redesign at the lower crossover point where you more than likely end up forcing a driver to run beyond the limits of what it can really handle. It's the math and deciphering all of the data to reach meaningful and useful conclusions that makes using them a pita. I'm glad you guys have the gift, I may come begging someday. Right, Al's horn is based on Edgar's model -- it has a 300Hz cut-off. No distortion data that I'm aware of. PWK crossed a half octave above cut-off with a 240Hz horn and a phenolic loaded driver -- so I figure that's probably O.K. Truth is though, I really don't know. I would probably avoid first order for sure. Check out that link, the data is interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Mug Shot..................JW you were absolutely correct, the lower profile looks much better, I think a littler narrower would be ok too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Compression drivers suck. There, I said it. I know what you are saying Dean. Maybe all the guesswork involved in making a horn/driver sound good is part of the challenge for some of us. Part of the hobby, if you will. Regarding cone drivers for mid horns - I like this idea and I'd like to read more about it. Does anyone here know of any information on the internet about using cone drivers in a horn for midrange in a hi-fi setting? I wonder if it's possible to bridge the two topologies by making a "conepression" driver? I'm always thinking about the proportion of sound coming from a driver on a mid horn and the horn itself, and I'm thinking that I'd like to continue working on building horn/driver combos that cut back the size of the horn and put more emphasis on the driver. Another way to put this is a bigger driver to horn ratio. This is one of the things I like about the 2" driver/tractrix horn idea for my Khorns. Taking the driver to horn ratio a step further means building a horn that is shallower and smaller but still keeps the 2' driver, much like the Martinelli horns that Mike K is using with his Jubilee bass bins. Going even farther means moving up to cone drivers for the horn, which probably means a big jump from 2" compression driver to 6" or 8" cone driver. Wouldn't it be interesting to cross the compression/cone technologies into a 3" or 4" midrange driver? Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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