SUB-12 OWNERS

[HAMP]

I am in another forum and I am being told that I should have my setting for my subs set at:

Receiver = 80hz Sub's = 120hz

I have explained that when I do that, I barely hear the bass. If I have the receiver x-over @ 80hz and the sub's x-over @ 80hz the bass is amazing.

On the receiver the bass level is -12db and the gain on the sub's are less then 50%. They are near the front speaker agaist the wall as the manual says.

I am wondering how you have yours set. If it's the same as mine or the other way.

[HudsonValleyNoah]

Something is wrong if there is ANY difference in the bass you are getting with those 2 setting sets.

if the receiver is set to pass only 80 Hz (or lower) to the sub-12 then it should sound the same if the sub-12 is set to ANYTHING 80Hz or higher.

Are you using the LFE or SUB OUT output on the receiver?

All that said, if it sounds the way you like it (at 80/80) then that's how you should set it.

No mater what anyone says.

Don't you think?

[SilverSport]

I believe the owner's manual states something to the effect of setting the crossover on the Sub 12 as close to the crossover setting on your receiver first...then if that doesn't seem to be working for you (any humps in the response) change the sub setting higher so that the receiver is doing the crossover "masterminding" and the sub brain is out of the way...sorry for the strange way of explaining but that's how I understood it...good luck,

Bill

[SilverSport]

by the way...currently I have the crossover set on my Outlaw Audio 1050 receiver set to 80Hz and the Sub 12 setting at the same...my Mains...Klipsch KG 5.5s can go down into the 30sHz and I tried it at 60Hz and didn't care for the sound as much...mine still needs some dialing in but the straight 80Hz seems to sound the best so far and for me...

Bill

[CECAA850]

The adjustable low pass filter on your sub allows everything below the selected setting to pass to the sub. It is not a brick wall however, but is a slope type cut off. If you have your receiver set to 80 Hz, it is already cutting off everything above 80 Hz so you don't want 2 filters doing the same thing, you may loose output. Typically you want to use your receiver's crossover or your subs, but not BOTH. Set your receiver at 80 and turn the sub's crossover all the way up (120) to get the full signal to the sub. If the sub's crossover could be disabled then I would recomend that but since it can't be disabled, turning it all the way up is the next best option.

[SilverSport]

interesting reply and logical but I was following the owner's manual...(IIRC)...the Sub-12 has no crossover bypass (disable)...my last Outlaw Sub had this and it is what I used...so this is new to me as well...

Bill

[HAMP]

I know that’s what you guys have been saying, but it had me thinking. I decided to turn the knob the other way. It sounded nearly the same or just a tad bit better, I know maybe more testing to really catch what’s been missing.

If you look at the dial, even if the number are reversed 80Hz would be 80Hz. 40Hz would be 120Hz and of course the 120Hz would really be 40Hz.

The dial does turn clockwise from left to right with the number starting from 40 – 120.

I’m thinking polarity might be reversed.

I decided to call Klipsch support and explain everything to them from all the forum info and testing. They are in process of sending me two amps to replace inside my subs.

The Rep hasn’t decided if they want these two back for testing to find the problem or not.

[slumberer]

The adjustable low pass filter on your sub allows everything below the selected setting to pass to the sub.  It is not a brick wall however, but is a slope type cut off.  If you have your receiver set to 80 Hz, it is already cutting off everything above 80 Hz so you don't want 2 filters doing the same thing, you may loose output.  Typically you want to use your receiver's crossover or your subs, but not BOTH.  Set your receiver at 80 and turn the sub's crossover all the way up (120) to get the full signal to the sub.  If the sub's crossover could be disabled then I would recomend that but since it can't be disabled, turning it all the way up is the next best option.

With respect, I disagree with this. Disable first (one crossover), match second, and set the sub all the way up as a last resort. The problems with two crossovers are caused by unmatched phase cancellations in the Q. You end up with several virtual bandpass filters killing linear bass response. Unless you have phase correct tuned filters, match the frequency so the problems are minimized.

[oldtimer]

I'm a little confused here. If it has a rear firing port then you are choking off response if you put them right up to the wall.

[slumberer]

I'm a little confused here.  If it has a rear firing port then you are choking off response if you put them right up to the wall. 

I agree. You might try pulling them out a little. [^o)]

[HAMP]

They are not as close to the wall as they appear. Also Klipsch Manual states they should be close to the wall and not out in the open.

For optimum performance, place your subwoofer in a corner of the room on the same wall as your front channel speakers. (refer to Figures 1 and 2).

Please note that room placement can have a dramatic effect upon the performance of your powered subwoofer. Corner placement, as suggested above, will increase the amount of bass

output, while placing the subwoofer along the middle of a wall, or out in the room will decrease the amount of bass output.

http://www.klipsch.com/media/products/owners-manuals/1.Synergy%20Subs%201012%20small.pdf

[slumberer]

If it works for you, great. I have my Fortes and SW-15 in a totally unconventional placement all in one corner and it sounds awesome. Do what sounds good and more power to ya. I think personal experience beats any 'recommended' placement schemes. Did you get the new amps up and running yet?

[SWL]

The adjustable low pass filter on your sub allows everything below the selected setting to pass to the sub. It is not a brick wall however, but is a slope type cut off. If you have your receiver set to 80 Hz, it is already cutting off everything above 80 Hz so you don't want 2 filters doing the same thing, you may loose output. Typically you want to use your receiver's crossover or your subs, but not BOTH. Set your receiver at 80 and turn the sub's crossover all the way up (120) to get the full signal to the sub. If the sub's crossover could be disabled then I would recomend that but since it can't be disabled, turning it all the way up is the next best option.

This is also the method I use to get the most out of my subs.

When I first started using subwoofers, I used to adjust the crossover on the sub as well as the receiver. I later found out that by doing this I was "restricting" the sub's performance.

[SilverSport]

I believe the owner's manual states something to the effect of setting the crossover on the Sub 12 as close to the crossover setting on your receiver first...then if that doesn't seem to be working for you (any humps in the response) change the sub setting higher so that the receiver is doing the crossover "masterminding" and the sub brain is out of the way...sorry for the strange way of explaining but that's how I understood it...good luck,

Bill

okay...it appears I mispoke...the above is in the owner's manual for the Outlaw Audio 1050...not the Sub-12 ...I will give the "set the Sub-12 to its hgihest setting another try...only thing it costs is a little time...

Bill

[HAMP]

If it works for you, great. I have my Fortes and SW-15 in a totally unconventional placement all in one corner and it sounds awesome. Do what sounds good and more power to ya. I think personal experience beats any 'recommended' placement schemes. Did you get the new amps up and running yet?

I'm in http://www.blu-ray.com/ forum and someone else say they have the sub's in a corner ontop of each other. I do believe that sounds good.

for my room shape and size, that is how I must set them up. All this just happened the other day, I believe Klipsch Support are only open Mon-Fri.

I'm not 100% sure I want to take out the current amps. The only problem is the numbers are backwards.

[HAMP]

okay...it appears I mispoke...the above is in the owner's manual for the Outlaw Audio 1050...not the Sub-12 ...I will give the "set the Sub-12 to its hgihest setting another try...only thing it costs is a little time...

Bill

I look forward to reading your results. I'm sure yours will be fine, I bought mine almost a year ago, more then likely a different batch then mine.

[CECAA850]

With respect, I disagree with this. Disable first (one crossover), match second, and set the sub all the way up as a last resort. The problems with two crossovers are caused by unmatched phase cancellations in the Q. You end up with several virtual bandpass filters killing linear bass response. Unless you have phase correct tuned filters, match the frequency so the problems are minimized.

I'm trying to understand your post. Are you telling him to disable one of the crossovers first? If so, then that's a problem because neither crossover has the ability to be disabled. If you run the adjustment all the way up on the sub, you have effictively disabled it, like I suggested. I apologise if I've misinterpreted your meaning, but I just don't understand the verbage of your post.

[SilverSport]

well...I have just run the sub up 10 120Hz...if this effectively keeps two brains from competing (the Outlaw 105 Receiver...and the Klipsch Sub-12) I'm all for it and it allows me to use the Receiver as the brain...choosing 80Hz (I did that [] ) and doesn't let any variances inthe crossover settings interfere with one another...then I'm all for it...

I can't really hear much if any difference but again...perhaps this clears up and competing between Receiver and Sub...

Bill

[slumberer]

With respect, I disagree with this. Disable first (one crossover), match second, and set the sub all the way up as a last resort. The problems with two crossovers are caused by unmatched phase cancellations in the Q. You end up with several virtual bandpass filters killing linear bass response. Unless you have phase correct tuned filters, match the frequency so the problems are minimized.

I'm trying to understand your post.  Are you telling him to disable one of the crossovers first?  If so, then that's a problem because neither crossover has the ability to be disabled.  If you run the adjustment all the way up on the sub, you have effictively disabled it, like I suggested.  I apologise if I've misinterpreted your meaning, but I just don't understand the verbage of your post.

No problem, let me clarify what I was trying to say. If neither has the ability to be disabled (this would be my first choice) then I, from personal experience and my limited understanding, say that running both crossovers on the same frequency is the simplest solution. You would think that running the subwoofer crossover at a higher frequency than the input signal disables it but this is not always true. My understanding is that crossover filters in these applications are reactive and therefore depending on the buffer circuitry, can be affected by another crossover in the circuit. If the Onkyo crosses in the digital domain(?), then this is less of an issue, but the Outlaw receivers and others use analog bass management and there you risk having the crossovers interact negatively. This phenomenon can be readily seen when running a low frequency sweep. You get several dips where the bad interactions cause serious attenuation at frequencies far removed from the set crossover. This experience is my reasoning that for simplicity's sake in most instances I recommend setting matching frequencies rather than trying to run the sub 'full range' as it were. Some subwoofers have an attenuation knob which should disable it when set to (0), but setting a sub to 120 means you still have an active 120hz filter in the circuit ready, willing, and able to cause gremlins in your bass response in some systems. If you have a more thorough understanding, I am fine with being corrected.

[carbon summit]

I've got my receiver set to large for the fronts (Forte IIs) and I have a Sub 10 in the rear of my room. I know its recomended in the front but if bass is uni-directional it shouldn't matter right? Not to mention I figure the Forte IIs give some bass fill in the front and the Sub 10 in the rear seems to do ok over all.

OK, my questions:
1. why do they recomend the sub in front. I don't notice any great difference.
2. why two Sub 12s? I have one Sub 10 and get great results. I've got to run the gain way down as it is so I can't imagine two Sub 12s although I love bass so I'd love to try it!!!