A New Thread on the Virtues of PA - Pro Audio and DIY VS High End Consumer Grade / Audiophile Audio and Video Products

[nola]

Preface: High end audio and video gear often works well and delivers a
pleasing product. Many of the items are aesthetically pleasing. For speakers, I
think the Belle Klipsch is almost orgasmically beautiful and IMHO is worth
extra $$ vs a LaScala as it is pretty like furniture, regardless of its
somewhat similar sonic qualities (no flames pls). DIY for the (I suspect) few
of us who can, also provides some alternatives in tough economic times.

However, Pro Audio (PA) gear, although designed for a different purpose
(usually louder, smoke filled rooms with lots of alcohol, etc) can be used in
HT applications. PA speakers, especially monitors, are (sometimes) clearly
designed for a far different purpose than 2CH stereo or HT, but might work
quite well (I have no experience here, but other M & K users only recc
their subs not their speakers for home - vs studio - use). In my experience,
especially for subwoofers and tape decks, new and / or "end of life"
(maybe no longer spec for a top band or radio/TV station) works quite well at
home. Caveats: PA gear can look or smell like it came from the swamp and may
have a -10 WAF. PA gear often involves larger items vs HT equivalents. In subs,
most PA stuff has a single or a dual 15" or 18" driver. Guitar cabs
can have 4 x 10" drivers. I think single 10" or 12" subs are
almost unheard of in the PA world.

I have 2 used Tascam tape decks; likely from a radio or TV station. I have
never compared them to a high end "reference" audio equivalent.
However, they sound "ok" to me as post Katrina replacements for my
lost 25 yr tape decks, and as used products saved me lots of $$. I admit that I
love records, but most tapes IMHO, can't compete with CDs, etc., and I saw no
reason to spend 2-3x the price on new or used "audiophile quality"
stuff. I have 1 "DJ" and 1 home turntable. The Technics 1200 (DJ) with its cartridge rules on my several warped records (yes, I know stylus weight is adjustable/there are record "flatteners"/weights......but I have kept everything to manuf. spec.).

I have 5 subs now. (OK, I know.......hehehe)

I bought a used RSW 15 over the summer. It is my bedroom sub and is great.
It replaced the dual 8s from my Klipsch ProMedia 5.1 computer speaker set up-no
comparison. However, in order to compare the RSW to my PA subs some major room
rearranging, which I am not prepared to do now, would be required.

Some manufacturers have separate websites for home and PA use (Denon/Marantz, Sony-sort of, etc). But no comparisons are provided. Has anyone here actually compared HT to PA components or subs? If not, do you know anyone who has? If so, please post

Two Behringer B1800X subs (not newer Pro version) were acquired last
weekend. Still messing with then vs my 2 Madison Amp dual 18 cabs. A fellow
Klipsch Khorn user from Toronto turned me on to the dual 18s about 18 months
ago. BTW, I can clear the flegm from my sinuses and chest very quickly now,
even if not FDA approved. I have a speaker building buddy in the local audio
group. His DIY 15" with 3-4' long 24" wide cylinder sub rules. I
would love to compare it to my dual 18s (mine might loose) and if I can DIY
later this year, it could be my 6th and last sub.

Keep in mind my main room (of my 2 room place) is 16 ish x 40 ish x 14 ish -
a big uniroom space (den, dining room, kitchen). And I love my bass. For
roughly 9000 cu ft everyone told me that mult subs were needed - and I think
they were right. On the AVS forums, Craigsub (?spelling) had a list of the top
subs about a year ago. Not 1 PA sub was rated. All of the top subs were really
big to massively large and /or fork-lift items-up to 450 lbs each. I realize that most of us have
no room for these monsters. Even my single 18" Behringers are about 2- 2 1/2 ft per side, 80 pounds, duals are about 2 x 2 x 4 ft, about 125-150 lbs each - that is huge and way to large and heavy for most of us. My guess is that most forum and other typical consumer users have 1 or 2, 10" or 12" single driver furniture grade cabinets, like those sold by Klipsch and many others. These are about 12-18" per side, and around 50 lbs. Why does Klipsch sell at Best Buy - that's where the customers - and the sales are.

No offense to Dr. HSU, SVS, Epik, eD, ?AVS, ATI, Outlaw, and of course Pappa
Klipsch, (and whoever I left out): simply stated, a PA 15" sub is 1/3 the
cost of your products. Even with a separate amp (from Parts Express, etc), a PA
system could be at least 1/3 less in cost. A cloth cover to improve WAF is only
a few $$.

Is there any reason why more of us don't use PA gear or some DIY?

If this should be posted elsewhere, happy to do so. But please, just
comments and reccs and no flame wars. I love my Klipsch Heritage set up and do
not seek to replace it with PA/DIY stuff. Klipsch support is also first rate -
and Kudos to Fred Klipsch for keeping it that way. But for bigger subs and some
components, maybe other alternatives should be considered.

Thanx

[Guest " "]

"Is there any reason why more of us don't use PA gear or some DIY? '

I think quite a few use PA gear.

[colterphoto1]

dig it

[thebes]

These do well in a home setting and sound fabulousa (Bogen MO100a) also knows as the Thebes-O-Bogen-O-Ramas.

[Guest " "]

These do well in a home setting and sound fabulousa (Bogen MO100a) also knows as the Thebes-O-Bogen-O-Ramas.

those 8417's will bring in a pretty penny on ebay.

[fenderbender]

I love my Tascam CC-222....built like a tank!!!!

I am a firm believer in "what ever works best for you"........no reason to spend $15K if you only discern a Small % difference over a $2k system

But then there are those that are all about the 1 % they can find here and there

there's also the different tools for different jobs approach ...I actually prefer my cheap sansui/technics/heresy...system to my $$$$ big dollar system for harder rock/metal/blues........I know the system isn't true and accurate (to coin a phrase from Mallette) but its coloring makes the more poorly recorded material sound better to me.

[SWL]

there's also the different tools for different jobs approach ...I actually prefer my cheap sansui/technics/heresy...system to my $$$$ big dollar system for harder rock/metal/blues........I know the system isn't true and accurate (to coin a phrase from Mallette) but its coloring makes the more poorly recorded material sound better to me.

I can relate. If the majority of your listening is rock etc........I'm finding that this is the way to go. Better equipment that picks it apart is very frustrating.

[Don Richard]

Pro sound equipment is usually designed to be moved, so it is generally lighter, more powerful, and more rugged than consumer gear. It offers high value performance, but may not offer top grade performance unless you get studio gear. However, if you are looking to power subwoofers, frequency response to 50,000 Hz is is irrelevent.

As for DIY, the problem is that you have to do it yourself. If you don't have the skills, the knowlege, along with the tools and test equipment to properly complete the project then your results may not be satisfactory. If properly done, DIY projects can equal or totally blow away any commercially available high end product. Out of pocket expenses with DIY can be very low.

[wuzzzer]

First pro gear for me is the Samson S1000 amp powering my SVS CS-Ultras. I couldn't believe how heavy the sucker is! Only took a less than $20 cable from monoprice to connect it properly to my receiver. The only feature I don't like is that the fans are always on. I don't really notice them during music or movies since I generally listen at very high volume levels.

I would imagine that the fact that it was designed to be rack-mounted it can be put in a very tight space without a problem? I'm considering shoving it underneath my sectional to help quiet the fan noise.

[philipbarrett]

Without sounding elitist here (hopefully some of the other full time mixers on the forum will back me up) putting all "Pro Gear" in one category is about as accurate as putting all "Home Gear" in a single column.

There are hugely varying levels in professional audio and I'm afraid that your typical bin/horn systems, manufacturer's like Behringer & amps from Samson are viewed in the low end in most touring mixer's eyes. The Klipsch level equivalents in live sound are mostly line arrays from predominately Meyer Sound, L'Acoustics, Clair Bros. & JBL (there are many more but these are the big 4 in the US). And actually all use some combination of double 12"s, 10"s or 8"s. The Meyers are self-powered, LA now insists you buy their amps with their speakers and most JBL systems are Crown powered being all part of the same Harman borg. Other popular amp brands include QSC and Lab Gruppen. Crossovers, equalizing & processing (considered mandatory with even an active PA box) is increasingly tablet driven with products from Meyer, Dolby (developed by Clair) and XTA being highly popular. As for subs, the general move (as amplifier power & driver power handling has increased) has been away from horn loaded to more compact, flyable, front loaded boxes although designers like Funktion One still make some incredible traditional subs. It's increasingly rare to see a mix/match of mains & subs between manufacturers and the dreaded "proprietary" box (read home made) is generally verbotten on every band's riders these days.

Now I'm not nessercerily panning these other brands it's just that when it has to work night after night, bumnping in and out of trucks everyday, in front of paying fans, reliability takes on a whole new meaning. Much of what is described as "Pro" does not pass that test. The equipment that does is certainly NOT more affordable than most of the equipment discussed on this forum. Generally PA gear is not really suitable for home use, the cheap units are just that & nothing else, the high end units are expensive overkill & if you think WAF falls down at carpet covered cabinets wait until you roll a 3-phase power distro into the den!

But I do have La Scalas because after a lifetime of horns I can't come home & listen to soft-dome tweeters!

[CECAA850]

No offense to Dr. HSU, SVS, Epik, eD, ?AVS, ATI, Outlaw, and of course Pappa Klipsch, (and whoever I left out): simply stated, a PA 15" sub is 1/3 the cost of your products. Even with a separate amp (from Parts Express, etc), a PA system could be at least 1/3 less in cost. A cloth cover to improve WAF is only a few $$.

Is there any reason why more of us don't use PA gear or some DIY?

You can look at my sig and see that I don't have a problem with pro gear, but I'd never use a PA sub for HT. They're just not designed to go low enough to reproduce alot of the LF track of many movies. Music would be another story.

[philipbarrett]

Thanks, I used the word "most" since there are some products in the home world that are sunstantially more than anything we use live! Certainly, I've never bought a speaker cable for over $1,000 that didn't have at least 8 conductors & be 100' long!

[nola]

I am not a musician, just have some friends that are. So, I really do not know that world 1st hand. I thank the posters about their PA comments. As I said, M&K users told me NOT to get their monitors for home use; but said their subs should be ok. I agree there are widely varying levels of quality in the PA, DIY, and consumer product worlds. I paid $500 each for my dual 18" cabs (big boys, 2 x 2 x 4 ft each, and they were new), and $200 each (ok, somewhat high for ?5-10 yr old subs, but a very slow market here in NOLA and high end JBLs of similar box size were $550 each new) for the older version of the Behringer B1800x's which are single driver 18" cabs of about 2-21/2 ft per side. I don't really know how low they go. I have no means to test them. The walls are shaking..... Yes, that could be due to quantity of mid freq, say 30-50 Hz sound, as opposed to any 20 Hz rumble. I also have the RSW 15 in the bedroom which some folks on the Klipsch forums say will not go below 30 Hz. I paid $700ish delivered for the RSW and it was made I think in 2001. The RSW certainly "seems nice", but I have not heard it in a shootout and h*ck for the price, how can you go wrong? For my circumstances, and in my very large main room, ~9000 cu ft, I think I did well while keeping costs low. (BTW, all of the sub amps were about $250 each, 3 new from Parts Express, and 1 used and bridged adcom 555.) Certainly eD did make the top rated sub on Craigsub's AVS forum list about a yr ago, I think it beat out the 12K Gotham/Fathom. But: it is the same size as my big subs, was 3x wieght due to 1st rate bracing and undoubtedly had better drivers, and maybe a better amp. The eD A7-900 sells for $2200 each, roughly 3x my cost. Oh yes, I waited and watched and waited for about 6-12 months before buying my big boys a year ago. I realize many forum members may have the high end or >1K cost subs from HT sub builders. Yet NOT 1 SMALL SUB EVER RATES HIGHER THAN BIG SUBS on any tests that I have ever seen (avs forums, the british equiv, etc), regardless of HT vs music. I metioned my buddies 15" DIY cylinder sub. It is awesome. He says that acc to his spkr building software it is tuned down to 14 Hz. I have heard it a few times and it might be "better" than my big boys. Is the ability to go lower in Hz what separates music vs HT subs? I think the true ability to go low depends on both room size and the size of the cabinet the driver is in. My guess is that unless both are big-huge, forget about European cathedral organ music lows.

I wish I understood the diffs between HT and music use needs. I clearly don't. I simply proceeded on the basis of "bigger is better" and to keep costs down in post Katrina, you gotta' sue the insurance company to get your money New Orleans. I am not sure that I want to pay a lot more for ?? a few more Hz.

All comments appreciated.

[SWL]

I've thought of implementing a pa sub into my RF-7-----SVS system. A pro sub that would really crank out the mid-bass.....like when you're at a concert and it feels like you have electricity flowing through your clothes.

I have some Crown amps to power them......I just question how much would have to be spent on one to match the sound quality of my SVS's. I don't want a pa sub that goes real loud just for the sake of being loud. It has to be good quality mid-bass.....like the quality of my RF-7's and SVS subs.....or else it's just not worth it.

[philipbarrett]

http://www.funktion-one.com/

Scroll to Products then Bass Range. These will rock your world and your pants. Prices are really reasonable for what you get, expect to pay around $2K (plus freight) for a folded, double 18" like the F218. Remember a true "Pro" 18" driver will set you back around $600. I demoed these recently and was really impresed, the designer is the original founder of Turbosound.

If you look around you can get good used prices on Meyer 650 (2 x 18" front loaded, non-powered version, not the "P" series). You will need a Meyer B-1 bass management procsessor to go with them & be sure to hear before you buy as the Meyer is a no-recone driver. Check out soundbroker.com for deals & never pay retai!

[SWL]

Thanks for the link Philip. []

[nola]

As for the comments on the diff 18" driver designs mentioned by others, the DJ I bought my behrs from actually liked his dual 15"s more. Maybe because the cabinet size was larger (and I can barely fit the 2 behrs, much less anything larger). Like my dual 18 cabs, the "port" or opening was in the middle of his dual 15"s. My buddy with the 15" driver cylinder sub is yet another approach. Of course, many manuf's have made both sealed and ported subs.

With all of the repairs going on here, I have temp lost my Rad Shack SPL meter. I have stacked the Behringers next to one of my dual 18" driver cabs (madisons), without wiping out my back. Using the same amp, the 2 single driver cab behr's sound a bit louder than the dual cab mad's. Not sure why. And they sound fine. (Again I do not have any test tones at various frequencies) The behr's are ported, like the new "pro" versions. BTW-I forgot to carefully inspect these before purchase, the front grills are opaque due to ?1/8" foam behond the grill. They do not smell, etc, but the ports-falling apart-, rust on xover network, and cab interiors look nasty!!!! Oh well.

I did notice that the behr's have foam stuffing, a real xover network and capacitors. They are also designed for bi amp or passive use by flipping a switch.

The Madison dual driver cabs do not have foam stuffing nor xovers nor capacitors. The madisons only have the cab, the drivers and a few wires.

How common is it for non powered subs (commercial, DIY or PA) NOT to have stuffing of some type or other, capacitors, etc?