Audioquest "DBS" cables... huh?

[Coytee]

mmmmmmmmm, bacon.... time for another turn...

[Y]

[Hifi jim]

Diamonds!!?... that's nothing but a bunch of snake oil and [bs]. I'm puttin' my money in cables. [] Thanks for the info Mark, I've got three words for my lady... cubic zirconia and Valhalla!!

[Coytee]

Diamonds!!?... that's nothing but a bunch of snake oil and . I'm puttin' my money in cables. Thanks for the info Mark, I've got three words for my lady... cubic zirconia and Valhalla!!

Screw that crap... I'm wrapping a piece of bacon around my wifes finger... [Y]

[BuyOtherSoundEquipment]

Wow!!! from DBS cables to diamonds!! What a great thread!!! Really!! It's fascinating to see how everything gets "connected" by some method (The Kevin Bacon 6 Degrees Theory in action).

Has anyone read "The Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell? It goes into detail about the six degrees of separation, among other things, and applies to what's being discussed here. Everything IS indeed connected, and in many more ways than may seem obvious.

As far as cables go, I am completely convinced that if you decide to make a hefty "investment" in your cables, you more than likely will hear a difference. The only caveat is whether that difference in real or percieved.

[Groomlakearea51]

What's the longest running scam, pray tell? []

[Don Richard]

No itemized reply for my post Don? Harummph!

No time...I'm going to buy some diamonds[G]

[Islander]

High-end pawn shops (yes, there were some on Church Street in Toronto when I lived there) carry diamonds at good prices. A "used" diamond is better value than a "new" one and is just as shiny.

[Islander]

The invention is far more than merely a monopoly for fixing diamond prices; it is a mechanism for converting tiny crystals of carbon into universally recognized tokens of power and romance. For it to ultimately succeed, it must endow these stones with the sort of sentiment that would inhibit the public from ever reselling them onto the market. The illusion thus had to be inculcated into the mass mind that diamonds were forever-- "forever" in the sense that they could never be resold." UNQUOTE Source: "The Diamond Invention" - Edward Epstein.

Since diamonds never wear out or get discarded (they may occasionally get lost), won't the market get saturated someday? Of course, when every woman has one, it'll be embarrassing to not have at least two...

[DrWho]

...I believe theory is just theory and it's
the practice or more importantly the sound that matters. I can get up
on my soap box with both fingers in my ears and scream about the
benefits of cable technology, but who'd listen?....does standard 14 awg
wire not have a sound, does it not have an affect on the sound output
from your speakers? All cables color and affect sound differently,
which is right and wrong is a matter of personal choice, the same as it
is for a preamplifier, amplifier, cd player, or even speaker....

I'm just grabbing snippets from your post, to help highlight a point I'd like to make...

For
starters, and I don't say this in a condescending manner, but I'm
getting the impression that you don't have any formal background or
interest in electrical science. So I find it rather ironic and even
insulting that you
feel justified to say "theory is just theory".... I absolutely agree
that what matters most is the performance of the system, but I think
you would be insulting hundreds of scientists by claiming their theory
is, in effect, pointless and invalid....it's also rather unfair coming
from one implying that others need to gain more experience
before commenting on the performance of systems they've heard...

However, have you made such comparisons between your own
cables?

So what is your experience with the theory that you can say that it
isn't working? I mean, surely you must understand the theories before
you can say they're debunk, no? Now if you've got extensive knowledge
and experience in the world of electrical science then I do apologize
and would more than welcome a more elaborate explanation of the
technical shortcomings as they correlate to what we hear.

Anyways, I would absolutely argue that wires DO matter...heck,
without them we wouldn't have any sound. And if you design the cables
poorly, then you can end up with some seriously awful sound. As an
engineer, I like to find numbers that will help aid in the design of
something that sounds good....someone needs to pick the materials,
size, insulation, etc... of the cables so that they can actually be
built. It's not like engineers just "discover" a combination that
works...if you want good performance, you must understand the tradeoffs
that must be made.

Now in the audiophile world, the word
"tradeoffs" usually raises red flags and automatically excludes any
semblance of "high fidelity" because audiophiles have every desire to
have no compromises anywhere in the chain. Sadly, that will never be
the case...and yes, even cables have tradeoffs that must be balanced in
order to optimize performance.

For instance, all wire has a
series resistance, which is usually integral to the size, shape, and material
of the wire. As resistance increases, we will see an increase in noise,
a need for increased output, distortion from non-linear heating,
decreased damping, bumps in the frequency response, etc... Each one of
the items I listed (and even the ones I didn't list) will have a fairly distinct
audible correlation to the effect. As an artist, I don't find any of
these behaviors adding anything enjoyable to the music - someone else
might disagree, but that is irrelevant. As an engineer, I use my theory
to minimize those effects...because I don't like how they sound. If I liked how they sounded, then I wouldn't try to get rid of them...

It
would seem the above snippet means we need as big of cables as
possible. However, when we do that, we'll be increasing the parallel
capacitance of the cable. Also, if the currents flowing through the
cable are large enough, then going to a larger cable doesn't
necessarily decrease the series resistance due to skin-effect. Both are
going to roll off the highs. Again, as an artist I don't want my highs
rolled off because I put them there because they sounded good...

I
know I'm only picking two very specific attributes, but I'm trying to
show that you MUST choose your compromise. Are rolled-off highs more
important than the effects of heating in the cable? It gets even more
tricky when you start talking about the series inductance of the cable
too (another source of HF rolloff). Different dielectrics for the
insulation can affect the capacitance as well, not to mention that
multi-stranded and twisted wires can reduce skin-effect as well.

It
can all get rather complicated rather fast, so as an engineer, you
gotta set yourself some benchmarks of audible correlation. In other
words, how much resistance is too much for what I want to hear? How
much capacitance is acceptable? Again, choosing these thresholds comes
about from listening for what you want to hear. If you're not hearing
what you want to hear, then you gotta make changes until you're happy
with the compromise.

But here's the point...when you're correctly
applying the theory, you can know ahead of time if something meets your
criteria for acceptable sound. A lot of engineers will look at a cable
and go "hmmm....I can only squeeze out about another 0.1dB of
performance over a very narrow frequency range"....and then compare
that against the performance of speakers, which individually are
usually like +-3dB and then in pairs can easily be up to +-2dB
different from each other. How do you know that the 0.1dB difference on
the cable isn't going to put you 0.1dB in the wrong direction in light
of your speaker? Or how do you know that it's not making your left
speaker better and your right speaker worse? Should I even mention the
room that is injecting about +10dB, -60dB onto the sound? If you start
comparing the magntides, your speaker is gonna be like 20x worse than
your cable/amplifier/electronics and your room is going to be about
100x to 1,000,000x worse.

I think I'd rather spend the money
where I'll get one-million times more bang for the buck. I kinda
hesitate to make that analogy because the effects of the room are
spread out over time and are perceived differently than influences that
have no time delay attributes to them (like all your electronics).
However, the power response of the speaker could easily be 100x worse
than the effects of a cable, so maybe that should read "one hundred
times more bang for the buck". Think about it...$30k in cables and
interconnects would have a smaller effect than speakers costing $300
more. Now just imagine the difference that $30k added to the room
and/or speakers might achieve... []

I also want to mention that it is quite possible to achieve +-0.0dB
performance from your interconnects over the audible passband. And in
fact, the electronics on either end of the cable are going to have a
much larger influence on the behavior than the cable itself. In other
words, even a purist need not invest crazy amounts of money into the
cables and know that they are introducing no difference to the sound.

And then one last point, buying cables marketed as "exclusive" that provide increased
performance in areas that aren't audible is like upgrading the stock
radio in your car that you never listened to in the first place. Even
though your new radio "should" sound better...if you never turn it on,
then you're achieving nothing. The same thing is happening with
cables....they can claim extended bandwidth, but your source material
doesn't have anything at those frequencies so that "new radio" is never
getting turned on. Meanwhile, the engineers that care about what they
hear are getting by with cheaper cables that probably sound better
because the compromises are optimized for the important areas (the
areas that you will actually hear).

I hate to say it, but there's nothing magical about any of the devices in our playback systems. The magic happens in the music.

Well that's my two cents anyway...guess I wrote on both sides of the coins.

[Groomlakearea51]

Outstanding perspective Doc!!

[Speedball]

.........Aston Martin makes a DBS, oops wrong brand.

[DrWho]

Source: "The Diamond Invention" - Edward Epstein.

That is terribly interesting. I'll have to do some more research to see how true that is since it's the first time I've heard about it. []
(Talk about paradigm shift)

[Hifi jim]

but I'm

getting the impression that you don't have any formal background or

interest in electrical science.

While I am not an electrical engineer as yourself, I am an industrial electrician and have studied electrical theory for five years. My point in my earlier post was to use your ears, instead of your head when evaluating products. I am not designing cables, so therefore I have little interest in arguing their design flaws or merits. What interests me most is the actual sound of a product. I'm not a specs person, having found that I can derive little to no idea what something sounds like by merely prejudging the product by spec. This is the reason Naim releases so few specs about their products, and I think we all know how well respected they are in terms of amplifier and cd player design.

$30k in cables and

interconnects would have a smaller effect than speakers costing $300

more. Now just imagine the difference that $30k added to the room

and/or speakers might achieve

I'm going to guess you've never heard $30k in cables demoed. I haven't, but I have heard $10k cables in a demo and to say that they made no more of a difference than buying speakers that cost $300 more than the Magnepan 3.6's that were used is complete and utter [bs] It's all relative. Cables should be purchased and used in proportion to the system at hand. Placing Nordost Valhalla's between my HK 730 and my k4's would be foolishness, but so would 14 wire between say, B&W 802D's and a Krell. Cables such as Valhalla's have information that is lost on lesser systems, and yet placing generic zip cord in a very resolving system would quickly make the weakest link known. I've bought and tried many wires and while all have sounded different, I prefer some of the cables made by Kimber and Nordost . My earlier posts were an attempt to let those who berate cables know that's it's not all bs and snake oil. There are legitimate gains to be had by using cables in your system, but proper system matching and listener preferences will of course determine the final outcome. I've never said placing Nordost Odin's in any system will change your life. I've never made any bold or outlandish claims, other than: all cables will sound different. How they sound, and how different from each other they sound will of course depend on the system, the room and the listener... same as any other component. Whether I shop for amplifiers, cd players, speakers or even magic rocks (as they're often called here), I usually bypass the scientific marketing hype. I can understand electrical theory, but I have no idea how those measurements affect sound and frankly could care less. All I care about is the sound of any product, if I love an amp then I could care less that it measures terribly on John Atkinsons test bench. If I love a cd player, then I probably couldn't explain it's DAC design or any other technical information. Does that mean I can't appreciate the sound from this component? Does that mean I can't differentiate that component from another? Of course not. First and foremost, I am a fan of music. Second, I am a Hi Fi nut. High Fidelity: reproduction as closely as possible to the original. Listen, it's the only way you'll know what anything sounds like.

[DrWho]

My point in my earlier post was to use your ears, instead of your head when evaluating products.

Right,
but that has no effect on the validity of theory because the theory is
the result of using your ears. There is no advantage in not knowing
what it is you like to hear, which is ultimately what you are
suggesting.

I'm not a specs person,
having found that I can derive little to no idea what something sounds
like by merely prejudging the product by spec.

If you are referring to marketing specs then I agree - they are mostly meaningless.

There
is a whole nother world of "real specs" that is terribly more
enlightening. All inclusive? Probably not, but it helps me get close.

Cables such as Valhalla's have information that is lost on lesser systems

That's why blind ABX comparisons are so interesting. I won't even touch
the fact that your claim is incredibly easy to measure. People have a
really really hard time hearing a difference between cables when they
don't know what they're hearing, but have absolutely no problems when
comparing things like speakers. Of course, ABX is only good for proving
that you can hear a difference...which is better is totally subjective.
However, I have a hard time with people hiding behind the importance of
subjectivity when they can't even prove that they can hear any
difference in the first place.

[Hifi jim]

There is no advantage in not knowing

what it is you like to hear, which is ultimately what you are

suggesting.

Why? I hear a difference, or not and that is all that matters to me. The scientific or technical reason for why I prefer one component over another is of zero interest to me.

If you are referring to marketing specs then I agree - they are mostly meaningless.

Marketing, test measurements, etc. are all meaningless in my eyes. I prefer to listen and then decide for myself. Some people pick components based on reputation, or technical merit. Others decide on what they've heard and still others will pick a product because it's red, silver or indigo. Perhaps these are all valid reasons, but let me be clear one more time... I only care about the way a product performs in the confines of my system and room.

That's why blind ABX comparisons are so interesting. I won't even touch

the fact that your claim is incredibly easy to measure. People have a

really really hard time hearing a difference between cables when they

don't know what they're hearing, but have absolutely no problems when

comparing things like speakers. Of course, ABX is only good for proving

that you can hear a difference...which is better is totally subjective.

Actually the study of human hearing and the way humans process auditory information is still in its infancy. What is known is that humans hear things very differently, and what may stick out in one persons ear, may go unnoticed in anothers. I'm sure this may be a reason that blind tests are so often inconclusive.

However, I have a hard time with people hiding behind the importance of

subjectivity when they can't even prove that they can hear any

difference in the first place.

Who do I need to make proof to that I hear a difference? You? Nope. Only me. [] If you don't wish to test cables in your own system, and if you wish to believe based upon the technical information you've read that cables cannot make a difference, then you've made up your mind and there is little I can do to change it obviously. What harm is there in trying a set of cables in your system and listening for yourself? What's the worse that could happen?... being proven wrong? The only way you'll ever know is too listen. Have you tried cables in your own system, and if so what were they and what were your conclusions?

[Islander]

There are millions upon millions of diamonds stored in vaults and kept off the market. Almost every diamond mined is stored in order to hold up the artificial price. If people started selling their diamonds, and/or if all the stored diamonds were let out, they'd be worth about the same as any other shiney pebble!

That's just what the public thinks. The price isn't high because of the diamond cartel, it's because of those hi-fi nuts who'll pay thousands for a tiny diamond if it's glued to an aluminum tube that has some fancy wire wrapped around it. They call it a pick-up because they pick up another sucker every time they sell one. [8-)]

[Don Richard]

What harm is there in trying a set of cables in your system and listening for yourself? What's the worse that could happen?... being proven wrong? The only way you'll ever know is too listen. Have you tried cables in your own system, and if so what were they and what were your conclusions?

OK, I'll try some cables to see if there is a difference. Since I am tri-amped I will require:

2 - 25 ft. for treble

2 -25 ft. for mids

2 - 25 ft. for bass

For cables that cost what some of these do I would be looking at 5 or 6 figures to hook up speakers. I'll need a bailout. You willing to help?

[Hifi jim]

OK, I'll try some cables to see if there is a difference. Since I am tri-amped I will require:

2 - 25 ft. for treble

2 -25 ft. for mids

2 - 25 ft. for bass

For cables that cost what some of these do I would be looking at 5 or 6 figures to hook up speakers. I'll need a bailout. You willing to help?

Well, a couple of questions first Don. What speakers are you tri-amping? I'm not familiar with all Klipsch speakers, but I doubt anything as efficient as Klipsch would seriously benefit from tri-amping? Next, are you using XLR or RCA interconnects? If you are using RCA, then upgrading those cables to something non-generic should reduce noise in your system. Lastly, why not change the interconnects between your source and preamp first? Not only would it be simpler and cheaper, but the source greatly benefits from a cable change, sometimes more than the preamp/amp connection.

[nola]

My 2 cents on audio weirdness:

I have read some, not all of these posts. I use 12 and some 14 g zip cord type speaker wire (lowest cost I could find, multi strand ? 80-300 strands per wire, can't tell if all of the wire spools were blessed as oxygen free copper), usually in 4-8 foot lengths; almost all new since Katrina. To be honest, my 20 yr old pre Katrina stuff looks nasty, is coated/rusted, but sounds fine - I just fingernailed off the gunk and rust from the wire edges, not aesthetic though. And even worse, hand twisted connections between pieces for longer lengths, or used home depot type nickel plated connector type plugs (5 cents each type) etc. Never thought to worry about it. As the audio engineers at Klipsch told me during the pilgr.. "they're just electrons, they don't care...."

In reading other stuff on spkr wire, maybe there is something to impedance matching, etc. Maybe that explains why some use ethernet cable, cat 5 or 6, as spkr wire, with good reported effect. I have seen, but never used anything fancier than zip cord.

Nope, I don't even even clearly separate power cords away. Given the constant repairs here, that turned out to be a real problem. I do the best I can. Eventually I will sep. off the power cables, maybe add a line conditioner (It has to be crappy in the French Quarter. Richard Gray, Power Company fame, is also in the local audio club and I plan to have him and others over by summer), and run nice clean 12g wire that I will likely Caig deoxidize, etc. Maybe it will make a noticable diff. Have also seen postings for rf shielding for the power cord itself. Someone claimed it improved his cable TV signal. I am willing to try that as well; why, it will only cost a few bucks and makes for a nice weekend project.

As for interconnects, I went a bit bonkers: I hand built most of my own. Audioquest 1/1 audio, and 3.1 and 6.1 video cables, all using the ITC 24 plugs. Finding parts has been tough, as not much is for sale at a cheap price. Most bought via Ebay. I should have Caig deox'd the wire tips due to all of finger prints and oils.....oh well, found out about it too late. I did not follow the wire's supposed directionality. Yup, AQ tells you that the electrons should only run in 1 direction. I just plugged them in without regard to that. Have also bought 2-3 sets of the Belkin HT interconnect kits, about $13.00, at Sam's Club. They looked somewhat impressive on the package pictures and I ran out of plugs briefly. I also use cheap a** optical cables from the usual suspects: monoprice, parts express, mcm... My DVI and HDMI cables are a similar hodge podge. I do try to keep all cable / wire lengths as short as possible.

To get rid of hum, I have grounded the TV cable and used cheater plugs on the sub amps. Most everything else uses 2 prong cords.

In general, I have been very patient in shopping for good quality products at low prices. I am willing to try low cost solutions, even if moderately labor intensive. Since I may face another year of repair work putzing around, I do not wish to finalize anything yet. Where I might have to spend big bucks is on power conditioning, as the lines here are 40 plus years old.

Please keep in mind: I work in an X-ray dep't. Power conditioning (or some equiv) and the like, along with huge UPS's are used. If hospital grade stuff like CT scanners, MRI units, etc don't require any other nutty solutions why should we??? (OK, we are a bit nutty too:) Trust me, if GE, Siemens, Philps, etc - the folks that make million dollar machines - thought that these would improve their products, they would do it in a second and charge a fortune for it. They don't.

[Don Richard]

Well, a couple of questions first Don. What speakers are you tri-amping? I'm not familiar with all Klipsch speakers, but I doubt anything as efficient as Klipsch would seriously benefit from tri-amping? Next, are you using XLR or RCA interconnects? If you are using RCA, then upgrading those cables to something non-generic should reduce noise in your system. Lastly, why not change the interconnects between your source and preamp first? Not only would it be simpler and cheaper, but the source greatly benefits from a cable change, sometimes more than the preamp/amp connection.

I am running modified Khorns, not for SPL. but mostly for time-alignment. I am using all balanced line level connections, no noise at all, no pre-amp. I know you're not gonna believe this, but there is absolutely no wiring change that I could make that would improve the sound of my system.

Just exactly why, in light of the miles of wire between you and the power station, in light of the thousands of feet of wire in the recording studio, that one (1) meter of interconnect will change the sound in a meaningful, detectable way?

It won't, unless that cable is defective.