MikeSt Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 As a guitar player I love the chainsaw-like sound of an electric guitar but can't seem to get it to come out in my stereo. I had the KG4's with the HK730 and wasn't impressed at all with the midrange, then I got some Heresy's and it improved, but it still seems like the treble and bass is drowning out the vocals and guitar. I tried EQing it but raising the mids just made it sound like crap. To me rock isn't all treble and bass like most people seem to like. Sure they're important, but the real magic comes from the midrange. So I'm thinking maybe it's the amp, I'm on the lookout for a Scott tube amp righ now. Gotta take my time on that though since I don't have much money. I thought horns were supposed to rule for midrange, but maybe not. I've never seen a guitar amp that used a horn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj01 Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I'm pretty new to this, but I noticed a definite improvement in the midrange of my Fortes with a crossover upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Hey Mike, why don't you try cutting the offending frequencies with the eq? By raising the mids, I am sure it sounds terrible, you are just adding to the mess. It is always recommended to cut rather than raise. ...and let me add the disclaimer: I am not a musician, nor play an instrument, but I love my audio! Dennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSt Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 Hey Mike, why don't you try cutting the offending frequencies with the eq? By raising the mids, I am sure it sounds terrible, you are just adding to the mess. It is always recommended to cut rather than raise. I actually did that and it was the same as raising but not as loud. When I try to pull out the midrange it just sounds like it's trying to push something it doesn't have and sounds terrible. I guess I can try getting new caps for the Heresy's since it doesn't cost too much. I don't know it getting knew diaphrams for them would be worth the $120. I'm just assuming since guitar amps are tube (the good ones) then midrange will sound better with a tube integrated like a Scott 299. It just seems like there's too much treble and not enough mod coming out of the Heresy's. Maybe it is the caps since they're from 1982. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 You need a speaker with a bigger midrange horn.....a MUCH bigger midrange horn. With Heritage Klipsch, the bigger the mid horn, the more open, full, and energetic the midrange becomes. In my world, the Belle/LaScala/KHorn are what's necessary to satisfy my taste for this. Cornwalls aren't bad either, but the bigger cabs/horns REALLY open and enrich the midrange. The Heresy places too much midrange in the woofer (700 hz and below) and the midhorn has too small of a throat to get the optimal "life" in the midrange I speak of here. Tubes will help a Heresy but you can only get so much out of them. At this point, you will get MUCH more bang for the buck via speaker upgrades than anything else. I have several system combos in use here, and the best I've come up with for what you describe is Belle Klipsch driven by McIntosh MC-30s rebuilt with K40 PIO caps....the guitar work just comes ALIVE on a system built for midrange. It's an $8K+ kit though (certainly more than many would want to spend), but if I were recommending a step in that direction, I would think about your speakers first....that's where the most improvement for the $$ will be realized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 What you are talking about is simply the shear output ~ moving air ~ kind of thing. Musical instrument amplifiers and speakers are almost universally different than "high fidelity" equivalents. Most high fidelity equipment cannot sustain the levels of output that most musicians use. The "crunch" you are talking about/describing can be done with "Hi-Fi" but you're probably going to have to step up to the kind of gear that can reproduce it. I can get it from my system. You'll need something more like LaScala's or Klipschorns or Jubilees, with significant power - clean power - the kind of amplifiers that are very conservatively rated with plenty of headroom. Crown, McIntosh, Krell, Audio Research etc., not a 40 watt solid state reciever made in the 70's (consumer grade solid state at its worst). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Hi Mike St...... Were you using a subwoofer or some type of bass binn/horn with the Heresy's? Maybe someone can chime in on this question......but will the influence of mid-bass frequencies enhance the midrange that Mike St is looking for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblake10 Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Have khorns with an mc250. I would describe the guitar sound on certain songs the same as you are describing. You might try to listen to this combo if you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Thump Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 What you are talking about is simply the shear output ~ moving air ~ kind of thing. Musical instrument amplifiers and speakers are almost universally different than "high fidelity" equivalents. Most high fidelity equipment cannot sustain the levels of output that most musicians use. The "crunch" you are talking about/describing can be done with "Hi-Fi" but you're probably going to have to step up to the kind of gear that can reproduce it. I can get it from my system. You'll need something more like LaScala's or Klipschorns or Jubilees, with significant power - clean power - the kind of amplifiers that are very conservatively rated with plenty of headroom. Crown, McIntosh, Krell, Audio Research etc., not a 40 watt solid state reciever made in the 70's (consumer grade solid state at its worst). Fascinating discussion here...But riddle me this? Why would you need significant power to duplicate a guitar that uses a tube amp from 7 to 50 watts and is typically clipping excessively for a crunch tone? Is it due to the complex harmonics or possibly the directivity of a beaming 12" cone speaker? I bet Dr. Who could give it a try... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormin Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 http://www.klipsch.com/products/discontinued/details/chorus-ii.aspx Which happens to have this: 90°x40° Tractrix® Horn. Which does exactly what you ask in a very smooth way at many different decibles of volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormin Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 not a 40 watt solid state reciever made in the 70's (consumer grade solid state at its worst). Thats bordering on offensive. [] An HK 430/730/930 and a Marantz 2230/2270/2285B are excellent old timers on big ole horns. These offerings put many amps to shame costing 5-10 times as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Fascinating discussion here...But riddle me this? Why would you need significant power to duplicate a guitar that uses a tube amp from 7 to 50 watts and is typically clipping excessively for a crunch tone? Is it due to the complex harmonics or possibly the directivity of a beaming 12" cone speaker? I bet Dr. Who could give it a try... The significant amplifier power part, kind of depends on the particular speaker (ie: Klipschorn vs, Belle ~ smaller mid horn) and the room size/acoustics. I can do this on my system with some Crown D60, but the room acoustics are very uniform and well contolled. If the room is ringy or has a goofy midrange as most untreated non dedicated rooms do, this can exaggerate or attenuate the problem. If you really want to "do it right, then by all means use some 50-100 watt triodes on each speaker ( K-horn, Jubilee etc) and YOU WILL get plenty of crunch. Here's a short story ~ similiar to what MikeSt is asking - from a different direction. A long, long time ago, in a land far not very far away, I bought my first "good" component hi-fi system. It consisted of JBL L-100 studio monitors, Crown IC150 preamp, Crown D60 power amp, Thorens TD160 table with a B&O SP12 pickup. One day, my wife to be and I went to hear the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. I had never been to a symphony before. Not really knowing any better, we got front row seats (couldn't see much). But the sound! Holy cow!! I was actually amazed at how large and powerful, yet initmate and delicate it could be. Naturally, upon getting home, I wanted to try and duplicate this on my system in my bedroom. The only "classical" type recording I had at the time was Holst, The Planets, Zubin Mehta conducting the LA Symphony. No matter what I did or tried, it didn't sound anything like the live CSO.Thinking it might be the small room, to my mother's dismay, I moved everything to to the living room where my old Zenith console was (its the best, right? LOL). Things only got worse as I quickly ran out of power in the larger room. Eventually I prurchased some Cornwalls. What a HUGE difference in the living room with only 30 watts. Now I was at least a step closer. Fast forward several decades. I still have that same D60 (and a few more) and use it everyday. Put on Velvet Underground or Tool, crank it up, and you've got CRUNCH. With the Luxman triodes, you've got CRUNCH and BLOOM and WEIGHT. Kick ya in the chest kind of stuff. If you want all of that, my experience has been that with most solid state amps you need more watts for the headroom since they don't have as much "give" as they aproach full output. So it kind of "depends" on your particular situation, but like I said, you're probably not going to get it out of a pair of KG4 and 40w SS 70's reciever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 not a 40 watt solid state reciever made in the 70's (consumer grade solid state at its worst). Thats bordering on offensive. An HK 430/730/930 and a Marantz 2230/2270/2285B are excellent old timers on big ole horns. These offerings put many amps to shame costing 5-10 times as much. The truth is sometimes offensive. And MikeSt is not using big ole horns. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSt Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 I've never tried a subwoofer, although I did try adding the KG4's with the Heresy's. All it did was add a bunch of bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSt Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Were you using a subwoofer or some type of bass binn/horn with the Heresy's? Maybe someone can chime in on this question......but will the influence of mid-bass frequencies enhance the midrange that Mike St is looking for? I've never tried a subwoofer, although I did try adding the KG4's with the Heresy's. All it did was add a bunch of bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSt Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Which happens to have this: 90°x40° Tractrix® Horn. Which does exactly what you ask in a very smooth way at many different decibles of volume. Are the Chorus I's just as good? I also head the Forte's have excellent midrange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSt Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 with significant power - clean power - the kind of amplifiers that are very conservatively rated with plenty of headroom. Crown, McIntosh, Krell, Audio Research etc. How about one of the pro amp like a Mackie or QSC? I also heard somewhere the Carver Pro amps sound good, they use the tri-path chip or whatever ir is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 with significant power - clean power - the kind of amplifiers that are very conservatively rated with plenty of headroom. Crown, McIntosh, Krell, Audio Research etc. How about one of the pro amp like a Mackie or QSC? I also heard somewhere the Carver Pro amps sound good, they use the tri-path chip or whatever ir is. The pro amps should be ok so long as you have plenty of headroom. The problem with most pro amps is they were designed for a different purpose ~ reliability is of paramount importance ~ and thats where the money is spent. Pro amps tend to "operate" differently. They don't want them getting hot, especially in studios. They might accomplish this with multi-stage fans, power output regulation, special circuit monitoring, whatever. They typically have very large, highly regulated, but "stiff" power supplies. When they clip, they CLIP. And they WILL essentially produce a DC signal (square wave) much the same as if your hooked the speakers up to a car battery. My experience has been with older Crown, McIntosh, Audio Research and Luxman amps. I guess Crown would fall more into the QSC/Mackie catagory. A 275w/ch Crown PSA2 (PSA is the pro version of SA2) does not "sound" as loud or powerful (to me) in my room as the 50w Luxman triodes. However, I can get that guitar "crunch" using Crown D60's ~ but, we're talking K-horns and a Belle, and a very clean front end - ARC SP6 valve preamp/phono, McIntosh MX130 everyday use. If I'm really serious, I just run the SACD direct into the Luxman triodes bypassing everything. The caveat here is that if you look at the distortion curves of most (if not all?) pro SS ampsyou will notice the distortion decreasing with increased power output. That should tell you something. It's not logical. Most consumer gear is the same. There is a reason they call transistors a "gate", and vacuum tubes are called "valves". Those terms imply a fundamental difference in operational properties. While a valve can be turned on and off, it's not as effective as a switch (or gate). And while a transistor makes a great switch, it still leaves much to be desired operating as a valve. Is music more like passing something through a "gate", or like water flowing though a valve? The valve amps will tend to have a more natural compression to them as the power output increases, and especially if maxuimum output is approached or exceeded. It doesn't look very nice on a scope. But it sure doesn't sound as ugly as those perfect square waves the pro SS amps produce. The kind of acoustic power output you're trying to duplicate - well, consider this. That guitar was probably driving a 100-200w tube head into four or eight 12" drivers for it's "midrange". A K-horn has one 2" (?) driver. Without being horn loaded its worthless. You can sort of think of the size of the mouth of the horn as the size of the speaker. So, with three of these (L+C+R), 5x16" = 80 sq inches x3= 160sq" surface area. For a 12" speaker = 113sq in x4 = 452. So what's the trade off? the 2" driver on the horn has better transient response, extended high frequency response, controlled directivity/polar response. lower distortion.The 12" wins in power handing and overload = crunch but is much larger in size and weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormin Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 not a 40 watt solid state reciever made in the 70's (consumer grade solid state at its worst). Thats bordering on offensive. An HK 430/730/930 and a Marantz 2230/2270/2285B are excellent old timers on big ole horns. These offerings put many amps to shame costing 5-10 times as much. The truth is sometimes offensive. And MikeSt is not using big ole horns. Touche Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormin Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Which happens to have this: 90°x40° Tractrix® Horn. Which does exactly what you ask in a very smooth way at many different decibles of volume. Are the Chorus I's just as good? I also head the Forte's have excellent midrange. They are completely different designs and not even close IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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