Jubilee audition Chicago?

[artto]

Anyone in the Chicago area with Jubilee's that I could invite myself over for an audition? []

[Coytee]

Indeed. Steve has a pair. He isn't too active on the forum so unless someone else beats me to it, I'll email him a comment about this thread. (I don't have his email at home and I'm going to be at office tomrrow)

He originally had Dean's passives. He then acquired a Dx38 so today, I do not know if he's using the Dx or passive.

[DrWho]

I was just at Steve's place recently....real cool dude and very killer sound. He was running a modified Dx38 with EV DH1A drivers and Crown K1 amps.

You thinking about Jubs Artto? []

[DrWho]

I was very surprised by the Outlaw receiver too...first time actually hearing one (as if one could identify all the individual pieces in the chain).

Btw, there's a passive xover available for the Jub, Art if you were looking to keep your signal chain simpler. I remember the noise floor in your room was awesome quiet. Did you ever get that roxul stuff thrown in?

[Coytee]

I don't know if Doc has sent an email to Steve, but I just now have.

Looks like Blue Man Group playing?

Good audition material!

[seti]

Really nice rooom!!!

[artto]

Thanks guys. I'll be waiting to hear from Steve.

Yeah, I'm thinking about converting over to Jub's. I'm curious how well the Jub's couple to the room and their low end. I've heard lots of good things about the 402 horn but I have to tell you I'm a bit leary. I have RC7 for center and rears in the HT and I'm not sure I really like the tractrix horns in those (granted they're not 402's), but there is quite a big difference in sound and the way they disperse the sound (room coverage) compared to the exponentials in the Chorus. My wife & I both agree the Chorus sound much better in the mid/treble range ~ better coverage ~ easier the hear at lower levels, etc. With that in mind I'm hoping the large 402 tractrix does a better job. On the other I'm not necessarily an advocate of using professional cinema products for domestic high fidelity purposes. These products have different purposes and design objectives which aren't necessarily appropriate for residential size spaces. Also, since Roy has said that Klipsch has absolutely no intention of actually putting these Jub's in production I figure there must be a reason why other than cost/demand.

Mike, I haven't gotten to the Roxul yet (LOL). I just got done remodeling two baths, master bedroom, my and my wife's office, the kitchen is almost complete (just a few details left), not to mention the new windows, siding, gutters, driveway, etc. After the holidays are over we start on the dining/living room/hall/foyer areas. The Roxul will come after that. Actually I want to remove the Celotex around the upper walls (behind the curved panels) and replace it with a double layer of cement board for a better sound barrier before I put Roxul behind the panels. Now I know what my clients must have felt like. I used to call it "architorture", but it's not funny!!!

[seti]

Think of the Jubilee like the early days of the Klipschorn where you had a utility style LF but could pick what crossovers horns and drivers you wanted. Now you can get the front panel veneered from the factory so it doesn't look as utilitarian. There are passive and active crossovers to choose from and lots of great horns if the 402 isn't your bag. The 402 is very cool but probably better with actives or passives and eq. Towards the end PWK did embrace steeper slope crossovers and Tractrix horns. It seems that could be a way to go if you wished to keep with his vision. The simplicity of the two way is very appealing.

The bas of the jubilee is remarkable. There is a slight bas boost in the low end that takes the bass of the jubilee even lower. Even though this is a boost the distortion is minimal and inaudible. Very low and very clean.

From what I have read over the years your Klipschorns and room are very dialed in together. Are you going to keep the Klipschorns as well? Some of the guys running tube amps have found inserting a zobel network to be very beneficial. I'd pick their brains a little as well.

Good luck!

[Coytee]

I'm not necessarily an advocate of using professional cinema products for domestic high fidelity purposes. These products have different purposes and design objectives which aren't necessarily appropriate for residential size spaces.

I'm being retentive, not argumentive.

The bass bin was originally designed for residential use. The company (as I understand the story) shelved the idea for building a home Jubilee however, quickly discovered that the bass bin was good enough to hold its own place in their cinema lineup. So, from a retentive perspective, the bass bin is a residential product that is finding its use in commercial applications, not the other way around.

Second... I understand that PWK heard the K403, the unobtanium horn unless your name is SuperStud or something like that [:#] [] I also understand that he told Roy that he wanted an even larger horn than the K403. I believe that is essentially the end of the story. Meaning, I personally, am not aware that PWK ever heard a final design and said "Viola, that's the top horn I want". If that is accurate we will never really know what he might have ended up with. Perhaps it would have been the K402...perhaps the K510 in a Khorn type tophat (this is my presumption).

yes, most of us have the industrial looking version however, you can get them prettied up. Get this bass bin, get some K510's (which still sound fantastic) and build yourself a Khorn style top section and you are in like Flint (or Flynn depending on your generation)! [8] [Y]

[seti]

SuperStud? Does a cape come with that?

Kudrets Jubilee's are beautiful!!!!!!!!!!

I think he had heard the 510 and said he wanted something bigger. If I remember right he was very impressed with the performance given its size. Did he say that about the 402? I can't remember if he heard that one. There is alot of info on the forums and info from Hope employees I have in notes. I'll go through and create a faq with info that can be verified. This should help perhaps we can post it somewhere for easy access.

The Jubilee was very close to done. The 403 was the horn that was picked. It was a combination of Roy and PWK goals in horn design. It was used in promotional photos and taken to CES. I'm not sure if a crossover was finished. At one point I was told someone was designing nice pieces of brass or some metal pieces to hold the 403 and enable you to change the angles etc.

[mikebse2a3]

I've heard lots of good things about the 402 horn but I have to tell you I'm a bit leary. I have RC7 for center and rears in the HT and I'm not sure I really like the tractrix horns in those (granted they're not 402's), but there is quite a big difference in sound and the way they disperse the sound (room coverage) compared to the exponentials in the Chorus. My wife & I both agree the Chorus sound much better in the mid/treble range ~ better coverage ~ easier the hear at lower levels, etc. With that in mind I'm hoping the large 402 tractrix does a better job. On the other I'm not necessarily an advocate of using professional cinema products for domestic high fidelity purposes. These products have different purposes and design objectives which aren't necessarily appropriate for residential size spaces.

Hey artto

My personal experience is that the K402 is an excellent horn that deserves the best drivers one can install on it. It is as neutral a horn that I'm aware of because of it's wideband width constant coverage design. I've heard this horn with several different drivers and it will allow you clearly hear the different driver's characters.

The polar control can be considered 90h x 60v and is very smooth and IMHO and experts such as Floyde Toole this constant coverage over the loudspeaker system's designed bandwidth is important in the ultimate accuracy and quality of reproduction in a domestic listening enviroment. I will also add the smaller the room (ie:domestic listening rooms) the importance of constant coverage becomes even more important and in fact the K402 would offer the highest performance potential possible IMO and in my experience in such rooms.

mike tn

[DrWho]

Thanks guys. I'll be waiting to hear from Steve.

Yeah,
I'm thinking about converting over to Jub's. I'm curious how well the
Jub's couple to the room and their low end. I've heard lots of good
things about the 402 horn but I have to tell you I'm a bit leary. I
have RC7 for center and rears in the HT and I'm not sure I really like
the tractrix horns in those (granted they're not 402's), but there is
quite a big difference in sound and the way they disperse the sound
(room coverage) compared to the exponentials in the Chorus. My wife
& I both agree the Chorus sound much better in the mid/treble range
~ better coverage ~ easier the hear at lower levels, etc. With that in
mind I'm hoping the large 402 tractrix does a better job. On the other
I'm not necessarily an advocate of using professional cinema products
for domestic high fidelity purposes. These products have different
purposes and design objectives which aren't necessarily appropriate for
residential size spaces. Also, since Roy has said that Klipsch has
absolutely no intention of actually putting these Jub's in production I
figure there must be a reason why other than cost/demand.

Mike, I
haven't gotten to the Roxul yet (LOL). I just got done remodeling two
baths, master bedroom, my and my wife's office, the kitchen is almost
complete (just a few details left), not to mention the new windows,
siding, gutters, driveway, etc. After the holidays are over we start on
the dining/living room/hall/foyer areas. The Roxul will come after
that. Actually I want to remove the Celotex around the upper walls
(behind the curved panels) and replace it with a double layer of cement
board for a better sound barrier before I put Roxul behind the panels.
Now I know what my clients must have felt like. I used to call it
"architorture", but it's not funny!!!

You've
heard lascalas right? I've heard it described that the Jub has the
forward projected midbass of the lascala coupled with the low frequency
extension of a khorn. In comparison, the khorn has a more indrect
sounding midbass that fills the room. That's not to say a Jub won't
fill the room, but it's not gonna be as spacious sounding. I actually
think the Jub sound is more accurate in that regard, but preferences
vary. I would be very curious to hear the Jubs in your room though...I
wouldn't be surprised if you had to move some panels around since the
waveform projected into the room is gonna be a different shape than the
Khorn.

Btw, I absolutely agree with your sentiments about the
RC7...that horn is way undersized and I think most of its sound can be
attributed to the lack of polar control allowing the lower mids to
spill all over the place...that and the polar response is kinda wacky
with the horizontally aligned drivers. I bring that up because you
don't get any of that 'congested need to crank it sound' on the K402.
The K510 would be kinda inbetween the two.

Do you have the Chorus I or Chorus II?

My
biggest concern about the K402 in your listening room is the 60deg
vertical polars...your room is very deceptive on the height, but didn't
you say it was around 7ft or so? The K402 doesn't beam the vertical
polars the way the horns in the khorn do so you're gonna get more HF
energy up into the ceiling. I believe the throat is gonna end up higher
than the tweeter in your khorn too. I think you've got the carpeted
floor so the extra highs into the floor probably won't matter much, but
I know you've got your room treatment tweaked out for the khorn polars.
The skylines should probably take care of it, but it's gonna sound real
different. Technically, the reverb is going to have a more tonally flat
response, but that's very dependant on the stuff that you have in the
room and how the sound sloshes around, etc..

Distortion wise,
the Jub is a no brainer....it's in a whole new league. There's none of
that diffraction slot overload crap that I believe is the main reason
professional gear got its bad wrap from. The khorns are a bit more
towards the pinched nasally sound on vocals...the magnitude of that
difference really isn't apparent until you get them side by side. The
K402 is the closest I've heard a horn get to a really nice direct
radiator nearfield setup in terms of tonal accuracy and smoothness of
the mids...I don't think it's quite there, but upgrading from the K69
to an overkill compression driver is extremely close. Once you throw
dynamics in though, there's no way I'd be interested in the direct
radiator.

One thing I do know is that you're gonna get a much larger sweet spot with the Jub. Heck, you don't even need to be on-axis with them....the polars are that good.

And dang dude, why don't you just tear the house down and build a new one? lol. You were talking about the roxul like 3 or 4 years ago []

[artto]

Hey, thanks for all the great info guys! I appreciate it!!

So, let get things straight. The 402 is the big tractrix

used in the pro cinema Jubilee and a few other models?

The 403 is the one shown in the original Jubilee pictures

with PWK and PWK + Roy?

And the 510 is the smaller horn like that used on the KPT 435

& 335?

I always liked the look of the original Jub. That mid/treble

Rosewood (or whatever it is) horn looks so cool. That’s the system that caught

my attention when I first discovered the Forum and later was so disappointed

when I heard it was not going to be produced. I also remember Trey telling me

something about Klipsch having difficulty finding anyone to accurately and consistently

able to make the Rosewood horn at a reasonable price.

I looked into using the large horn with the Khorns but I

guess it’s not a good match because the Khorns don’t go high enough, but I

notice the Jubilee Cinema crosses over at 400Hz, the same as my older Khorns.

Maybe it’s just a crossover slope issue?

Those of you who have followed my posts and thread over the

years are aware of how “tight” the integration between my speakers and room

acoustics are. The Jubilee bottom doesn’t “spec” as low as a Khorn. And I know

that the way I have Khorns installed I’m getting better than “spec” low-end. I’d

rather keep it that way and use the new larger mid/treble horn with the Khorns if

I can, that would be ideal, especially if the Jub bottom isn’t going to provide

any better performance in my room. I’m also considering a Bag End D18E-AD sub

under the Belle, but no hurry here either. That probably won’t be needed

unless/until I add a HT projector and LED projectors are relatively new &

$$$ so that ain’t gonna happen for a while as well.

[DrWho]

I'm pretty sure the FR specs in the cinema literature were all taken
in 1/2 space where you don't get the room corner extending the flare of
the horn. In 1/8 space, the khorn and Jub low frequency response is
essentially identical. With Roy's bass boost on the Jub, it has about
an extra half octave or so. The stock rolloffs are very similar
(arguably a bit slower with the Jub) so I would expect similar effects
after room gain.

Btw, you could always go with a 3rd Jubilee for the center channel....it doesn't need the corner the way the khorn does [] I'm trying to remember whether or not you had a TV in your room...it's just straight up 3-channel stereo, audio only right?

As far as the advertised 400Hz xover on the khorn...that's the electrical crossover point. The acoustical xover happens closer to 350Hz or so (maybe lower, I forget). The K402 has an Fc of ~350Hz, but the tractrix loading doesn't dig all the way to its Fc the way an exponential usually does. The K402 also starts to lose pattern control around 400Hz? I forget that one too, but I know that's why Roy chooses to cross a bit higher with the Jub LF....although he chooses to cross lower than the 1kHz extension of the Jub LF because the K402 isn't clover-leafing over that range.

[greg928gts]

The Jubilee bottom doesn’t “spec” as low as a Khorn.

I don't think you'll miss anything in the bottom with the Jubilees, regardless of what the specs say. Sometimes I think they are digging deeper, although they are probably not, but they are much stronger in the lower bass range than Khorns.

The biggest difference I notice with the low end on my Jubilees versus my Khorns is that the low end of the Jubilees comes right at you. There's nothing subtle about it. It's strong, deep, and direct. Khorn bass I describe as filling the room, exciting the room without being overly forward, and of course accurate, sometimes a little laid back.

Greg

[mikebse2a3]

As far as the advertised 400Hz xover on the khorn...that's the electrical crossover point. The acoustical xover happens closer to 350Hz or so (maybe lower, I forget). The K402 has an Fc of ~350Hz, but the tractrix loading doesn't dig all the way to its Fc the way an exponential usually does. The K402 also starts to lose pattern control around 400Hz? I forget that one too, but I know that's why Roy chooses to cross a bit higher with the Jub LF....although he chooses to cross lower than the 1kHz extension of the Jub LF because the K402 isn't clover-leafing over that range.

Hey Mike were did you get your Fc number for the K402?

The K402 actually maintains it's horizontal control below 100 degrees to about 265Hz and the vertical control starts a very slow widening from about 60 degree around 800Hz and is only 100 degree at approximately 385Hz.

I also know Roy decides his crossover points based on many parameters besides pattern control such as amplitude,phase,and distortion.

mike tn

[DrWho]

I was pulling numbers from memory, which is probably one of the least reliable sources in the world... []

The gist of my last comment is that the K402 outperforms the Jub LF from 500-1kHz...

[DrWho]

I don't know if Doc has sent an email to Steve, but I just now have.

Looks like Blue Man Group playing?

Good audition material!

I just talked to Steve on the phone...he hasn't read his email yet []

Ya, that was blueman group playing....that's an amazing DVD and in fact Steve even game me a copy of it since he had an extra [] I really need to see that show live sometime. I've heard the sound system is uber redonkulous.

[Coytee]

I've heard the sound system is uber redonkulous

With various friends, I've seen them in Vegas a couple times and I've seen them in Chicago a couple times. The Vegas venue has a sound system that makes the Chicago venue sound like a transistor radio. I'm serious... it isn't even a contest.

Second... if you make the show in Chicago (or venture to Vegas) the show you will probably see there is nothing like the DVD you saw.

[seti]

Mike that veneer is amazing,...