A Mistake Changing the TYPE Of Capacitors In Old Klipsch Speakers

[ka7niq]

I get my ears cleaned of excess wax, makes a difference

[ka7niq]

The table shows the relative aging for a number of dielectrics. The numbers are for reference only. Opinions vary on the actual numbers, according to the type of test used.

[ka7niq]

I wonder what PWK would say when people replace the stock type of capacitors in products he designed ?

Here is a good capacitor article, along with sources to buy from!

Film Capacitors

Film capacitors are mostly used in high-performance applications. Polycarbonate, polyester, and polypropylene have been the "big three" of film capacitors. They are the only ones that most film capacitor makers make, although polyphenylene sulphide (PPS) is on the rise. For the lower volume capacitors, I have listed known manufacturers. This does not mean they actually stock parts, but at least they have the capability to make them if they want to.

Polycarbonate:
Polycarbonate has a fairly low temperature drift (lower than most films), dissipation factor, and dielectric absorption. It can be used in timing circuits, although C0G ceramics are a better choice for small sizes. It is suitable for some pulse applications, and for some precision analog applications, especially if you need its good temperature stability and relatively high temperature rating. Moisture absorption is high compared to most other film dielectrics, a problem for some critical applications. Good heat resistance, to 125C, but not good enough to be found in surface-mount packages. Some manufacturers recommend it for automotive applications.

Unfortunately, polycarbonate is about to go the way of polystyrene. The last manufacturer of capacitor-grade film, Bayer AG, says they will cease production at the end of 2000, but may have a substitute material. A number of manufacturers are making recommendations for polycarbonate replacements (some of which should not be taken seriously). Evox-Rifa for one, recommends polyphenylene sulfide, and this is probably the best choice for most applications. Polycarbonate has a slight edge in high-temperature leakage and is better at self-healing, but PPS is as good or better in most other parameters. PPS´s only weaknesses are a higher high-temperature temperature drift and higher DF at high temperature, >100C. Its K is about the same as PC, so PPS caps will be about the same size. Polypropylene may also be considered for applications where very low leakage is important, but high temperature is not a issue, although its temperature drift is not as good as PC or PPS. Polystyrene has had availability long after the film ceased production, but this may not happen with polycarbonate. Production is expected to cease no later than 2006. Unlike polystyrene, polycarbonate has only a few significant advantages over replacement dielectrics. PPS's main problems are that the capacitor-grade film is single sourced (Toray in Japan), expensive, and more difficult to process into capacitors than polycarbonate.

>>Update 4/10/05<<
Electronic Concepts Inc. ( http://www.ecicaps.com/ ) has announced that they are now making their own capacitor-grade polycarbonate film and are selling the finished capacitors. ECI specializes in upscale parts for aerospace, medical, and similar industries. We may not see cheap, dipped, polycarbonate parts. http://www.ecicaps.com/pub/Polycarbonate_Status.pdf

Polyester:
Polyester is probably the most popular of the film capacitors, at least for board-level applications. Actually, polyester is a generic term for a class of similar polymers, the one used in polyester capacitors being polyethylene terephthalate. Dupont's trade name is Mylar, some people call it PET, PETE, or PETP just to be confusing (and that doesn´t even include the various European trade names for it). It doesn't really do anything particularly well but low cost, small size and the ability to do many things well enough makes it a good choice for many noncritical applications. High dissipation factor, especially at increasing frequency, means it is best used in DC or relatively low-frequency/low-current pulse and AC power applications. Poor temperature drift, dielectric absorption, and leakage relegate it to non-critical analog circuit applications. Typical applications would be where you want a capacitor larger than a C0G but better electrical properties than an X7R. Polyester capacitors can typically be found in values from 0.01 uF through at least 10 uF and beyond. Polyester has a high temperature drift but can be found layered with polypropylene to flatten the temperature curve (the two go in opposite directions). Polyester capacitors are available to 125C. Good heat resistance allows polyester capacitors to be made in surface-mount styles.

Polypropylene:
Polypropylene (PP) capacitors have a lot going for them. They are available in a wide range of sizes and voltages, and are used in a wide variety of circuits. PP has a very low dissipation factor over it´s entire temperature range and over a wide frequency range. This makes polypropylene capacitors popular for high-frequency, high-current applications like switching power supplies. Large film, film-oil, and paper-oil-film types are found in power-line applications like power-factor correction. These can have operating-voltage ratings >400 kV AC. Polypropylene motor-starter, motor-run, and SCR snubbers are replacing older electrolytic and paper-oil types which all have much higher dissipation factors. Sizes for these run into the 10s of uF and >500 VAC.

While PPs very low dissipation factor has made it the only viable material for many high-power AC applications, its self-healing properties, critical for reliable high voltage operation, are only fair. When an arc-through of the dielectric occurs, PP tends to leave more carbon at the site than polyester. Also, the arc is more quickly extinguished if the gas pressure at the failure site is as high as possible. This requires that the dielectric is as strong and heat resistant as possible. Polyester is better in this regard as well. Oil impregnation helps make up for these deficiencies however.

The small through-hole styles are available in the usual range of sizes, roughly 100 pF-10 uF. Low leakage and low dielectric absorption make small polypropylene capacitors suitable for integrators and sample-and-hold circuits. Moisture absorption is negligible. Only its higher temperature drift makes it inferior to polystyrene. Polypropylene has limited heat resistance (to 105°C), and is not found in surface mount.

Polystyrene:
Polystyrene (PS), (the Europeans often call it "styroflex" or "styrol") has long been the material of choice for critical analog circuits. Low leakage, low dielectric absorption and a shallow, flat temperature curve makes these capacitors suitable for timing circuits, filters, integrators, and sample-and-hold circuits. Moisture absorption is very low. Size, cost, availability, and temperature range limitations make polystyrene unsuitable for most other applications. Heat resistance is limited to about 85C, so forget surface mount. They can be damaged by soldering and by chlorinated board cleaning solvents. I don´t believe I have seen them in metallized film, only in film-foil.

Because of the poor heat resistance, polystyrene has largely been replaced by polypropylene and C0G ceramics, and the capacitor-grade film is no longer being made. There is several year´s supply still available, and they are still being sold, but be careful using them in new applications. Some manufacturers have noted that polystyrene caps are "not for new designs". One company, ITW Paktron, makes polypropylene capacitors with a guaranteed temperature drift similar to (if not quite as good as) polystyrene. PS's other electrical properties are mostly very similar to PP.

Whether polystyrene capacitors will really go away any time soon is not certain. I have been warned of polystyrene´s demise "in a few years" for over a decade now, and yet it is still available. There almost seems to be vast supplys of the film stashed away in manufacturers back rooms. It may also be that declining usage will extend available stocks for many years to come. I imagine that many of polystyrene´s traditional applications are fading away as newer technologies take over.

Companies that advertise polystyrene capacitors include:
http://www.americancapacitor.com/
http://www.centechusa.com/welcome.htm
http://www.tecategroup.com/ti/ti2.htm
http://www.vitelelectronics.com/asc.htm
http://www.filmcapacitors.com/
http://www.richeycap.com/
http://www.southernelectronics.com/
http://www.wescocap.com/
http://www.crcfilm.com/
http://www.seacorinc.com/
http://www.lcr-inc.com/products/polystyrene.htm
http://www.eci-capacitors.com/ I believe these guys make their own film
http://www.evox-rifa.com/
http://www.electrocube.com/
http://www.seasonshk.com/
http://www.am-21.com Centalab Hong Kong !?!
http://www.susco.com
http://www.rtie.com
http://www.tscgroup.com/
http://www.eurofarad.com
http://www.capacitors.com.hk Suntan

Companies that advertise "polystyrene-replacement" capacitors include:
http://www.electrocube.com/
http://www.paktron.com/
http://www.sbelectronics.com/sbe.htm

Polysulfone:
A few people spell it polysulphone. Now rare, it was once considered to be the dielectric of the future. Not even sure the capacitor-grade film is still in production. Very good heat resistance, to 150C. Dissipation factor fairly good, and it remains good at relatively high temperature and high frequency. Moisture absoption is high however, similar to polycarbonate. Temperature drift is about the lowest among film capacitors. Its major advantage is good high-temperature leakage. I have never seen it in SMD.

Companies that advertise polysulfone capacitors include:
http://www.americancapacitor.com/
http://www.eci-capacitors.com/
http://www.rti-corp.com/Electronics/imb.html

Polyethylene naphthalate:
Polyethylene naphthalate (PEN), another form of polyester, is a relatively new material to the capacitor world. It has very good heat resistance, but is otherwise much like polyester. It is available in larger sizes than C0G ceramic, lower temperature drift than polyester, and lower leakage than X7R. PEN capacitors are available to 125C. It is commonly found in SMD capacitors, including large values (>1 uF).

Polyphenylene sulfide:
Polyphenylene sulfide (PPS) is another "newcomer", although it has long been used as an engineering plastic. It is found mostly in SMD but also in through-hole packages. It has many attractions, including low dissipation factor and very good heat resistance, a combination not found in other common capacitors. Dielectric absorption is fairly low. Moisture absorption is very low. One manufacturer says it has C0G-like electrical properties. This is a bit of an exaggeration but it is probably your best choice if you need a C0G-like capacitor >0.05 uF in SMD. PPS caps are commonly available to 150C. PPS is now being recommended as the main replacement for polycarbonate capacitors which will be going out of production. PPS's only serious drawback comparied to polycarbonate is an increasingly high dissipation factor as the temperature goes above 100C. PPS has about the lowest temperature drift of film capacitors that still have good availability.

Teflon:
Teflon TFE is DuPont´s trade name for polytetrafluoroethylene or PTFE. Teflon is actually a blanket trademark for wide variety of DuPont fluorocarbon polymers. PTFE is also sold under a number of other trademarks such as Fluoroplast-4 and Fluon PTPE. PTFE has very low leakage, very low dielectric absorption (probably the lowest in both cases), very low dissipation factor, a wide temperature range (to 200C for some), low temperature drift, negligible moisture absorption, and very good stability. It is about the best film capacitor for critical analog applications. Expensive, however, which is why you don't see them every day and few companies still make them. The film has exceptionally poor mechanical properties and inconsistent thickness, and manufacturers find it difficult to work with. Available from 0.001 to at least 2 uF. Have not seen them in SMD. Well almost. CDE now makes a few Teflon SMD parts in very low values, <10 pF.

Companies that advertise Teflon capacitors include:
http://www.americancapacitor.com/
http://www.polyflon.com/ also non-magnetic
http://www.customelec.com/
http://www.dei2000.com/
http://www.crcfilm.com/
http://www.condenser.com/
http://www.eci-capacitors.com/
http://www.semco-usa.com SEMCO is really a mica specialist, but apparently makes some Teflons in small values
http://www.v-cap.com big audio caps
http://www.cde.com/catalogs/MCM-MIN.pdf SMD

Acrylic
Acrylic is a real newcomer. The main attraction seems is size. C-D suggests it as an X7R replacement. Dissipation factor is high relative to other films, 0.5-1.5% through 20 kHz, temperature drift is only fair, and useful frequency range is limited to well under 1 MHz. Although the upper temperature limit is only 85C, they are only available in SMD.

Companies that advertise acrylic capacitors include:
http://www.cornell-dubilier.com/
http://www.tecategroup.com/ Has graphs.

[Guest David H]

I had a guy call me once with a "crossover problem". He said his tweeters weren't working, but he knew the tweeters were good because he'd just replaced them. He was using a test CD and he said he couldn't hear the tones past 8kHz. "I can turn my volume control all the way over and I can't hear a thing." I told him his crossovers were probably fine, that the problem was his hearing -- and that he was frying his tweeters with his test CD and volume control. I do believe he was a little upset with me. He went through four sets of tweeters before he went to the doctor and found out that he was, well, you know ...

...Living in the Midrange.

Dean, your story has touched me in a way that is tough to explain. I feel the need to share one of my own.

Back when I was a young tike (alot of you guys were already old) I used to adjust my equalizer in a V configuration, totally eliminating the beauty and luster only to be derived from the midrange. Now that I am older (and you guys are really old) I no longer use an EQ.

I am so living in the midrange.

Craig

Craig, I also remember the days of the EQ in the shape of a V. Thanks for sharing.

Dave

[greg928gts]

Craig, I also remember the days of the EQ in the shape of a V. Thanks for sharing.

Dave

That's what I was shown (when I was about 17 years old) to get the best kick drum sound. A ten band EQ with a "V" curve on just the kick drum mic. Worked pretty good!

Greg

[ka7niq]

.

We used to call it a smile curve

[Guest David H]

That's what I was shown (when I was about 17 years old) to get the best kick drum sound. A ten band EQ with a "V" curve on just the kick drum mic. Worked pretty good!

Greg

Looks like the V curve may not be all that un-common, unless you are living in the mids.

Dave.

[homemadeheresy]

I thought it was only the old folks that lived in the midrange. Isn't that why the Khorn was originally a two way loudspeaker? There was no need for anything else than the midrange with a little bit of bottom end. Me I can't hear alot above 12khz anyhow so I'm comfortable living in the midrange.

[Guest David H]

I thought it was only the old folks that lived in the midrange. Isn't that why the Khorn was originally a two way loudspeaker? There was no need for anything else than the midrange with a little bit of bottom end. Me I can't hear alot above 12khz anyhow so I'm comfortable living in the midrange.

And yet another heart warming story about overcoming the odds, and Living in the midrange.

I thank you for your participation and wish you well.

Dave.

[ka7niq]

Guess it better to live in the mid range, then go through Bankruptcy []

When I have to replace capacitors or crossover parts in Klipsch speakers, I have found great deals on good sounding parts here www.erseaudio.com

You have to buy 20.00 worth of crossover stuff minimum to buy direct, but if Klipsch does not have an old part, and you are forced to go aftermarket, I have had great luck with them.

[ka7niq]

Here is some things I have found out by re doing crossover capacitors in many speakers, Klipsch included.

Replacing old electrolytics with low ESR Poly caps changes the sound, not ALWAYS for the better. []
A B&W engineer told me the charecteristics of the caps they used in the Matrix 801 were taken into account for.
Changing caps will change the sound, but not always for the better.
Floyd Toole has shown if we are to make a mistake in a speakers response, we should accept a DIP, vs a Peak!
I have deliberately placed a bunch of caps in parellel to get really low ESR, with terrible results , much of the time.
It is my opinion, the paper in oil caps have high ESR, and that is what we are hearing.
I would bet my life that if we took a Mylar Cap with exact same ESR and values, and did a double blind A B test, it will sound the same.
PLENTY great sounding speakers have Electrolytic caps in them.
I do believe it possible to :TUNE" a speaker by playing with different caps!
But it is cap Value and ESR, not TYPE, we should be concerned with.
If you slap a new Electrolytic in a circuit that had another cap type in it, and you LIKE the sound, go for it!
In some old Spica's TC 50's, I rigged a way to insert several different caps and switch.
I wound up with a Bennic Electrolytic, vs several poly and even a paper in oil cap!
That cap was what the Spica's wanted!
In my opinion. "limiting yourself" to only "good caps" is not the best course of action.
I have changed many speakers crossover parts, and have had Radio Shack Electrolytics sound better, in several applications, then even Red Clarity Caps and Mundorf Supremes!
It is all about what the circuit wants, not the cap TYPE, is what I have found.

[Guest David H]

Guess it better to live in the mid range, then go through Bankruptcy

I can see you are starting to loosen up, I think you are living in the midrange, just afraid to admit it.

The group may need to convene for a Living in the Midrange, or L/M meeting tho help this cat along.

Thank you all for your support.

Dave

[Guest David H]

Here is some things I have found out by re doing crossover capacitors in many speakers, Klipsch included.

Replacing old electrolytics with low ESR Poly caps changes the sound, not ALWAYS for the better.
A B&W engineer told me the charecteristics of the caps they used in the Matrix 801 were taken into account for.
Changing caps will change the sound, but not always for the better.
Floyd Toole has shown if we are to make a mistake in a speakers response, we should accept a DIP, vs a Peak!
I have deliberately placed a bunch of caps in parellel to get really low ESR, with terrible results , much of the time.
It is my opinion, the paper in oil caps have high ESR, and that is what we are hearing.
I would bet my life that if we took a Mylar Cap with exact same ESR and values, and did a double blind A B test, it will sound the same.
PLENTY great sounding speakers have Electrolytic caps in them.
I do believe it possible to :TUNE" a speaker by playing with different caps!
But it is cap Value and ESR, not TYPE, we should be concerned with.
If you slap a new Electrolytic in a circuit that had another cap type in it, and you LIKE the sound, go for it!
In some old Spica's TC 50's, I rigged a way to insert several different caps and switch.
I wound up with a Bennic Electrolytic, vs several poly and even a paper in oil cap!
That cap was what the Spica's wanted!
In my opinion. "limiting yourself" to only "good caps" is not the best course of action.
I have changed many speakers crossover parts, and have had Radio Shack Electrolytics sound better, in several applications, then even Red Clarity Caps and Mundorf Supremes!
It is all about what the circuit wants, not the cap TYPE, is what I have found.

So let me get this right, you are saying you prefer the original capacitors to higher quality caps becuase the speakers were originally voiced with them. Is that correct?

I think I can officially say or the group. WE GET IT.

I think we also understand that you hold a B/W engineer in GOD like status, and he is the only person in the world who's opinion matters.

Once again, you are an amateur radio operator (Advanced Class) HAM so that automatically gives you the abilities to work with electronics solder etc.

And last of all Floyd Toole prefers dips to spikes.

Did I miss anything? You have stated all of this about thirty times now.

I absolutely understand your point, and I am positive everyone else know how you feel.

My point is not everyone has to agree with you, and they are not wrong for having an opinion.

What is the point of this thread? To discourage upgrades? if so please refer this thread to the leave it all stock column. You are currently posting in upgrades and modifications

My name is Dave, and I am living in the midrange.

[Guest David H]

Sorry, I missed a few things you are also under the impression that it is ok to talk smack about other members speaker and that is ok. Sorry it's not nice.

LOL, you can roll all you want with Belles, and ya still got Belles, a beautiful piece of furnitre, and little else. If you can't hear the folded horn colorations,and the woofer playing well up into the midrange, with lower midrange fundamentals ping ponging off the un damped wood walls, dude, what CAN you hear ? I have owned 2 sets of Belles, I hated them, wife loved em, cause they were pretty. I just could not live with that folded horn coloration.

Did I mention I am living in the midrange.

Dave.

[Al Klappenberger]

For what it's worth:

I am K3KWX (go look it up: http://www.qrz.com/)

I say that Mylar and paper in oil caps are just high loss caps consisting of a lot of resistive losses. Replace them with low loss polypropylene caps and then pad down the higher level that comes out of the filter with an "L-Pad" and you have the same "voicing" and a better filter. It makes no difference anyhow because most of the filters in these networks are crappy designs to begin with. A gold platted spittoon is still just a spittoon!

Al K.

Oh, BTW: I live in a HOUSE!

[Guest David H]

Wow, I am just missing all kinds of things today. You are also under the impression that it is ok to call people name or make ill reference to to their initials.

Where did you get your manners? You really need a group hug, maybe that will help.

Bob Crites is a great guy! I have his titanium diapraghms in my Cornwall 2's. He is a wealth of knowledge, and IMHO a great asset to any audiophile. The same for DeanG, and KKK, oops, I meant ALK

Your tactics are absolutely uncalled for.

Start living on the midrange - crossover from the dark side.

Dave.

[ka7niq]

LOL, Posting "Living In The Mid range' has nothing to do with upgrades and modifications, and why do you constantly change the topic of the thread, as well as the title ? Maybe TRY to "protect your crossover and capacitor selling friend" from search engines, who uses this forum for free advertising, IMHO

Amy from Klipsch warns about this in her post, as well as using phoney profiles to shill for crossover and capacitor parts seller on Klipsch Forum. It my opinion it is best to buy stock replacement Capacitors from Klipsch, if possible ? If not, as audiophile I share ERSE website because they make decent quality replacement capacitors, IF Klipsch can not supply them.

[Guest David H]

Oh, BTW: I live in a HOUSE!

Don't let ALK kid you, I have heard his crossovers and horns. He is definately living in the midrange.

Great to hear from you Al.

Dave.

[Guest David H]

LOL, Posting "Living In The Mid range' has nothing to do with upgrades and modifications, and why do you constantly change the topic of the thread, as well as the title ? Maybe TRY to "protect your crossover and capacitor selling friend" from search engines, who uses this forum for free advertising, IMHO

I will tell you what, if I want my roof cleaned, I will call you for advice. If I need crossover advice I will call DeanG, ALK, Bob Crites or one of the many other qualified forum members.

You really need to start living in the Midrange.

Dave.

[ka7niq]

K3KWK, LOL, I say jokingly K3Klipsch Without Klipsch, and I am KA7 Never In Question or KA7NoIQ LOL Al, we are not talking about Microwaves here, these are not RF Frequencies, but audio frequencies. Many fail to realize when measuring ESR what frequency they are measuring at. Go lower down in frequency, and the high ESR drops, at least on the capacitors I have measured. But High ESR is not necessarily as bad as some make it out to be. In fact, a lossy high ESR Capacitor may tame a shrill, foreward speaker, quick and dirty, w/o spending the grand kids money for a full blown crossover redesign. One must remember, that PWK and Roy Delfgado are talented engineers, PWK was holder of many patents, before he was taken from us. Do you really think that the Klipsch engineers did not account for the Mylar and Electrolytic caps in their anechoic chamber testing and voicing ? LOL,my kid bought "premium" plug wires for his hot rod, against my blessings, andthey flat failed at 25,000 miles! I tried to tell him STOCK plug wires are designed to go 100.000. 000 miles, but he had to learn the hard way ...

Hey, last time I saw you post,, you imposed an exile on yourself from the Forum ?