A Mistake Changing the TYPE Of Capacitors In Old Klipsch Speakers

[ka7niq]

We can get accustomed to a type of sound, especially when we have nothing to compare it to. Anytime you have a folded horn woofer playing UP into the mid range in a folded horn, you are gonna get coloration and phase shifts, caused by the folded horn. The Europeans use Horns that can play down LOW, or direct drivers in ported boxes to minimise this.

[Don Richard]

Bob Crites is a great guy! I have his titanium diapraghms in my Cornwall 2's. He is a wealth of knowledge, and IMHO a great asset to any audiophile. The same for DeanG, and KKK, oops, I meant ALK I think perhaps they should make OEM crossovers with as close to original capacitor parts as possible availiable, for those of us that prefer to keep our speakers stock. Really, many Klipsch speakers are ungodly bright and shrill, so lets be real for a minute

So what are the original type caps used in the Khorn crossover? A question came up here a while back regarding the hermetically sealed bathtub caps in my old original Type A crossovers and this is what I found out:

"I just got off of the phone with Tom of Plastic Capacitors, Inc. who ID'ed his product as a Mylar film and foil oil filled cap. He said that as long as there was no leakage they should be fine, and considering the operating temperature and voltages present in a loudspeaker crossover, that they should last forever. I have not done any electrical testing of these caps, but listening tests seem to confirm proper operation."

As far as "brightness and shrillness" go, these speakers with my old crossovers could not be described that way. Those attributes are likely due to the recording process in any event. If this recording sounded normal on another loudspeaker, maybe that speaker was dull and lifeless to begin with.

[ka7niq]

I concur.

I wonder if the 801s have a little shrine in front of them.

Carl.

LOL, DB Keele used them back in the 80's when he was a reviewer in Audio Magazine to compare ALL other speakers he reviewed against. IF you do not know who DB Keele is, I humbly suggest you find out ? Once you find out WHO he is, and realize he is NOT using Horns as a reference speaker, you MIGHT get a clue ? Stereophile re reviewed a pair John Atkinson's wife still owns, Result ? The B&W Matrix 801 REMAINS a world class speaker, easily able to hold it's own with anything under 20 grand today !! That John Atkinson kept them all these years ( the my wife owned them) is all BS, designed not to Pizz off other manufactures), is a testament to their ability to sound like music.

Now, there ARE good horn speakers, to be sure. I really liked the Klipsch Original Forte's !!! Unfortunately, I RUINED them by foolishly listening to the accepted use poly caps"wisdom" on some Forums. I did not re cap them again with stock type caps because they had no future in my room. They were way too small on a 20 foot wide wall with a 73 inch Mitsubishi DLP HDTV in the middle, and dual 9,5 cu ft subs in the corners. Plus, they were golden oak, NOT a match. I have owned 5 pairs of corner horns, 3 Khorns, 1 ea speaker lab k/s and speaker Factory khorn clones. I have owned LaScala's, I call them La Screecha's, 2 pairs of Pretty Belles Klipsch, Corn 1's and 2's and CF 3 and CF 4's version 1 and Version 2's. I have used gain clones, Tripath, SET, Push Pull, Pass 40'sKills,Audire, Luxman M 117, Moscode 600's, every amp pre amp combo I have owned, over the years.

I am one person responsible for collecting western electric field coil drivers, and horns, amps, crossovers, and selling to the ****. I heard a full blown western system in Vancouver BC, it literally was a life changing experience, I used to think our Japanese friends we stupid to pay me big bucks for all the western stuff I sold them ..... Not anymore, LOL

[ka7niq]

Bob Crites is a great guy! I have his titanium diapraghms in my Cornwall 2's. He is a wealth of knowledge, and IMHO a great asset to any audiophile. The same for DeanG, and KKK, oops, I meant ALK I think perhaps they should make OEM crossovers with as close to original capacitor parts as possible availiable, for those of us that prefer to keep our speakers stock. Really, many Klipsch speakers are ungodly bright and shrill, so lets be real for a minute

So what are the original type caps used in the Khorn crossover? A question came up here a while back regarding the hermetically sealed bathtub caps in my old original Type A crossovers and this is what I found out:

"I just got off of the phone with Tom of Plastic Capacitors, Inc. who ID'ed his product as a Mylar film and foil oil filled cap. He said that as long as there was no leakage they should be fine, and considering the operating temperature and voltages present in a loudspeaker crossover, that they should last forever. I have not done any electrical testing of these caps, but listening tests seem to confirm proper operation."

As far as "brightness and shrillness" go, these speakers with my old crossovers could not be described that way. Those attributes are likely due to the recording process in any event. If this recording sounded normal on another loudspeaker, maybe that speaker was dull and lifeless to begin with.

Good Post ! Though a capacitor Maker says they should last forever, there are some who will tell you different, because they have measured very high ESR because the caps are old. But, what IF the original cap WAS a high ESR cap to begin with ???

[ka7niq]

Bob Crites is a great guy! I have his titanium diapraghms in my Cornwall 2's. He is a wealth of knowledge, and IMHO a great asset to any audiophile. The same for DeanG, and KKK, oops, I meant ALK I think perhaps they should make OEM crossovers with as close to original capacitor parts as possible availiable, for those of us that prefer to keep our speakers stock. Really, many Klipsch speakers are ungodly bright and shrill, so lets be real for a minute

So what are the original type caps used in the Khorn crossover? A question came up here a while back regarding the hermetically sealed bathtub caps in my old original Type A crossovers and this is what I found out:

"I just got off of the phone with Tom of Plastic Capacitors, Inc. who ID'ed his product as a Mylar film and foil oil filled cap. He said that as long as there was no leakage they should be fine, and considering the operating temperature and voltages present in a loudspeaker crossover, that they should last forever. I have not done any electrical testing of these caps, but listening tests seem to confirm proper operation."

As far as "brightness and shrillness" go, these speakers with my old crossovers could not be described that way. Those attributes are likely due to the recording process in any event. If this recording sounded normal on another loudspeaker, maybe that speaker was dull and lifeless to begin with.

Good Post ! Though a capacitor Maker says they should last forever, there are some who will tell you different, because they have measured very high ESR because the caps are old. But, what IF the original cap WAS a high ESR cap to begin with ???

[SET12]

Bob Crites is a great guy! I have his titanium diapraghms in my Cornwall 2's. He is a wealth of knowledge, and IMHO a great asset to any audiophile. The same for DeanG, and KKK, oops, I meant ALK I think perhaps they should make OEM crossovers with as close to original capacitor parts as possible availiable, for those of us that prefer to keep our speakers stock. Really, many Klipsch speakers are ungodly bright and shrill, so lets be real for a minute.You don't see people gutting B&W 801's, they are a great speaker, as is. People GUT some Klipsch speakers, and go to heroic lengths, to TRY and make their speakers sound right.You know, if it aint broke, don't fix it ? It is my experience that the Klipsch speakers I have re capped were already bright enough, and the LAST thing they needed was a low ESR Cap to make em even more bright.

There are people that certainly do gut 801's http://www.northcreekmusic.com/801web.html

And while cap improvements are very audible I see nothing on Inductors that are just as audible if not more. In fact I find iron core inductors just horid sounding IMO and I'll never use them again due to their very audible hysteresis distortion that literally sounds like its compressed. And if you change an inductor the whole presentation that a cap gives will be just as different.

The amazing thing is many will replace parts but I find they don't go far enough to get to where the sound is dramatically enhanced. Myself I have only scratched the surface on what one can do. But I can tell you doing what was done above to even a lowly speaker like a Forte 1 will stand with Giants.

My current version of the Forte network with Duelund Copper VSF caps and Duelund Resistors

Though I have some $1500 into these the performance is worth thousands more! and I do it all over again in a heart beat. The subjective quality of these parts is really amazing and is something that almost has to be heard to believe.

And if you care to read "No Regrets" and "Robie's" listening experience with them.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340&page=3

SET12

[deafbykhorns]

I have heard the Northcreek 801 Xovers, the original 801 xover doesnt hold a candle to Northcreeks. Northcreek makes some of the best inductors in the industry and may be the only one using 8 guage. I'm sure B&W could not market these speakers with a 2K crossover. Sometimes engineers are forced to make choices with cost in mind.

BTW: Nice work on that xover Set12

[ka7niq]

The North Creek Crossovers for 801's are VERY expensive! I own 801's a long time, have met many fellow 801 owners over the years, only know ONE 801 owner who went to North Creek Crossovers, he tell me he liked results in some ways, others not so well. But I think it is safe to say there are 1000 times more Klipsch owners who gut their speakers, and go to heroic lengths to make some of the speakers sound right. B&W Matrix 801 owners mostly tallk about stands, components, cables, etc, etc, or just enjoy music. I had original Forte's, very impressive speaker, for the money, my favorite ober ALL the many Klipsch Speakers I own over years of audio addiction. Klipsch CF 4 version 1 was fun too.

[SET12]

Thank you John,

I would think George at North Creek has his act together as thats all he did was voicing and designing speakers

The work has been some of the most pleasurable in all my Audio years. It has also been a wake up call to just what is possible from a speaker that shows some promise. The results were nothing less than an awaking to how important networks are, and even more amazing is how these networks make the Forte sound as big as Klipsch's larger siblings yet only a fraction of their size, and that's a hard one for people understand, unless they hear it for themselves, I can literally tell you that my Forte's stage size is about double the stock Fortes in nearly every dimension. better yet the tone is very, very clean and defined, the new networks make the stock sound strained, dark, and lean.

Your right about the 2K and I'm sure North Creek doesn't use in the 801 anything like the superb Mundorf, Duelund, caps and resistors in my own networks. Which the only reason I can afford to is the low parts value.

And I can understand the engineers constraints with cost. Which is why I had to do what I did because I can't afford 10-$20,000 loudspeakers. But I do feel what I have can compete with them!

ka7niq,

The one owner only feeling so,so about the North Creek networks doesn't surprise me. System associated gear and room setup plays such a role in good sound, to often room placement plays a factor in system performance. Also gear is very important as well, so that's a hard call but I wouldn't dismiss the North Creeks performance based on ones opinion just look at John's or even my own experience. But one thing is for sure the entire system must be capable. I certainly had other amplifiers and expensive CDP's with my modified Forte's and they told me like it is!

Your right about heroic lengths to make some Klipsch's sound right! But most often people don't go far enough, I spent about $1500 in parts and I could of easyily spent a lot more. Anyway people do some upgradeing of caps and get stock like performance with some improvements, But rarely do they get this kind of extraordinary difference and of course there was a cost but the funds spent were worth every penny, What makes more sense to people is going bigger so they move up they line, problem is they get the same similar network quailty. But as a good friend of mine said, that doesn't guarantee better performance with bigger speakers. And I have to agree as I wouldn't trade these for a pair of Khorns even up, and even a good friend of mine that owned Khorns said he would rather own these. And even if I would trade them, I would sell them to finance another project. One things for certain, I'll never live with stock networks in any Klipsch product that I was using for serious listening, I'm to spoiled. when I A-B-A'd the stock Fortes for my buddy, he couldn't even make it through one song as he said the stock Forte's were just grating his ears.

The Forte's certainly are satisfying to many people for what they are stock, but to people like myself that commonly listen to 5-$10,000 loudspeakers with CDP's and amplifiers costing just as much stock Forte's just isn't enough. The fun part is doing what I did to the Forte's to get the $10,000 performance at a fraction of the price. Then seeing the facial expressions of guest's which is just priceless not to mention my own enjoyment of great satisfying sound from DIYing.amplifiers and CDP as well.

In the end I have discovered a Giant in the mist.

SET12

BTW my home state is Florida as well, born in North Miami to be exact.

[ka7niq]

I just woke up SET 12, up late listening to re capped E/V Sentry III's (They sound like chit at the moment) I need some coffee in me, I will come back later, when I wake up

Chris

[SET12]

I just woke up SET 12, up late listening
to re capped E/V Sentry III's (They sound like chit at the moment) I
need some coffee in me, I will come back later, when I wake up

Chris

It
doesn't surprise me Chris! There really are only a hand full of caps
that are really, really speacial IMO.

Chris I worked all night,
so I have to get to sleep! I won't be up till after 7pm, Myself I have
not been satisfied with typical caps you might check this site out! It
might open your eyes!

Right now there is a cap brand that is an
unbelievable value one that cost 5 times less than the $150 1uf Duelunds
I use for my mids called AmpOhm but they went out of business and some
of the stock is available yet. I just bought a pair for my amps and
haven't installed them yet and I'm thinking of doing a set for my
crossovers as well to try.

Here's the site

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

And
if your speakers are using iron cores I feel for you as they just plain
gag me! or if they are using tiny air cores as well, my point is
inductors are just as audible as caps.

Read Inductor FAQ's at the
bottom of this site! I agree with every word he says!

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/COILS.html

The nice thing about my networks is I can change parts in
minutes or seconds even.

SET12

[SET12]

sorry![8-)]

[ka7niq]

Wow, Humber going OUT of business ? I have used ESRS coils, not as good as what you are using, but a lot of bang for buck!

Well, I recapped my Electro Voice Last nite SET 12, and the results are horrible!

I used the same type of caps, well, I THINK I did ? The three 30 uf caps are absolutely huge, the old ones,they are black caps with like a pink ends and say NP 1`068 - 7402 then 42529 30uf - 70 v NP ? I have never seen caps like these, but say NP on them ?My;ars are automatic non polar, and polyps were not out in 1976 ?? Wonder IF they are a paper in oil ? The mylar mid range cap, also a HUGE yellow cap is an AM Rad 17.7

I replaced the 30 uf caps with 30 uf ERSE NP Electros, their very best 3 % DF caps,and used an ERSE 18 uf Mylar to replace the 17.7 uf stock mylar cap. The stock Mylar DWARFS the ERSE Mylar replacement.

The ST 350 tweeter had a small black 2uf mylar on it, I replaced with ERSE 2 uf mylar www.erseaudio.com

Result, so FAR ? IT SUCKS, the big midrange horn is way hotter now, the speakers have lost their magic! The new ERSE Mylar really turned on the ST 350 tweeters, they are fine, it is the midrange I am not pleased with! The Sentry III have a removable back top section with x over mounted on it, easy as *** to roll caps!

There are 3 - 30UF caps, wonder IF one of them is midrange related ? here is what I think, I WISH I could measure these old caps for ESR, etc,etc .. What may be happening is the high ESR may be compensation for decreased alnico magnet woofer loss of magnetism ? IOW, the new caps, working correctly, may be making speakers midrange because woofer not as efficient as one was ?

[deafbykhorns]

Don't take this the wrong way, but if your questioning cap values, maybe you shouldn't be experimenting with caps. Don't try this on your tube amps at 400v +[H] Set12 probably has 20 years under his belt to get where he is today [Y]

Edit: I take it back on the experimenting part, keep trying until until you find that sweet combo

[Deang]

This thread needs to be sucked into a Black Hole.

[Blvdre]

Ridiculous.

[ka7niq]

This thread needs to be sucked into a Black Hole.

AWW shucks Dean, whats sa matta for you ? Audiophiles talkimg about (GASP) buying caps and crossover parts from someone else, besides your omnipotence ? perhaps you haven't realized it yet,but every thread aint gonna go "your way" my friend. Last time I looked this was a place to share our ideas about audio ? Lighten up,open your mind, a mind, like a parachute, works best when open .........

[ka7niq]

Don't take this the wrong way, but if your questioning cap values, maybe you shouldn't be experimenting with caps. Don't try this on your tube amps at 400v + Set12 probably has 20 years under his belt to get where he is today

Edit: I take it back on the experimenting part, keep trying until until you find that sweet combo

Noproblem, and NICE Fish! I live in tampa. Ka7niq is a ham radio callsign, been one over 25 years. Know what u mean about getting zapped !

[ka7niq]

Some interesting Capacitor Reading ? Fixed capacitor comparisons

Capacitor type	Dielectric used	Advantages/applications	Disadvantages
Paper Capacitors	Paper or oil-impregnated paper	Extensively used for high voltage and high discharge current applications.	Large size. Paper being highly hygroscopic, it absorbs moisture from atmosphere despite plastic enclosures and impregnants thus increasing its power factor and decreasing its insulation resistance.
Metalized Paper Capacitors	Paper	Comparatively smaller in size and higher voltage rating	Suitable only for low current applications.
Polyester (MYLAR) Capacitor	Polyester film	Smaller in size as compared to paper capacitors of comparable specifications. These have almost completely replaced paper capacitors for most DC electronic applications with operating voltages up to 1600VDC and operating temperatures up to 125ºC. Moisture pick-up is lesser.	Temperature stability is poorer as compared to that of paper capacitors.
Polystyrene Capacitor	Polystyrene	Best general purpose plastic film capacitor. Excellent stability, low moisture pick-up and a slightly negative temperature coefficient that can be used to match the positive temperature co-efficient of other components.	Maximum operating temperature is only about +85ºC. Comparatively bigger in size.
Polycarbonate Plastic Film Capacitor	Polycarbonate	The insulation resistance, the dissipation factor and dielectric absorption are superior to polystyrene capacitors. Moisture pick-up is less and these have almost zero temperature co-efficient.	-
Polypropelene Plastic Film Capacitors	Polypropylene	Extremely low dissipation factor, very high dielectric strength, low moisture pick-up and high insulation resistance.	<center>-
Polysulphone Plastic Film Capacitors	Polysulfone	These can withstand voltage at comparatively higher temperatures. Moisture pick-up is typically 0.2% and it limits its stability.	<center>-
PTFE Fluorocarbon (TEFLON) Plastic Film Capacitors	Polytetrafluoroethylene	Operating temperatures of up to 170ºC, extremely high insulation resistance and good stability.	Large size and high cost.
Polyamide Plastic Film Capacitors	Polyamide	Operating temperatures of up to 200ºC. High insulation resistance, good stability and a low dissipation factor.	Large size and high cost.
Metalized Plastic Film Capacitors	Polyester or Polycarbonate	Reliable and significantly smaller in size.	Limited current carrying capability like the metalized paper capacitors.
Stacked Plate Mica Capacitors	Mica	Advantages of mica capacitors arise from the fact that the dielectric material (mica) is inert. It does not change physically or chemically with age and it has good temperature stability.	Unless properly sealed in a case, mica capacitors are susceptible to moisture pick-up which will increase the power factor and the insulation resistance.
Metalized Mica or Silver Mica Capacitors	Mica	Have the above mentioned advantages. In addition, they have much reduced moisture infiltration.	<center>-
Glass Capacitors	Glass	Similar to Mica Capacitors. Stability and frequency characteristics are better than mica capacitors.	High cost.
Class-I Temperature Compensating Type Ceramic Capacitors	Mixture of complex Titanate compounds	Low cost and small size, excellent high frequency characteristics and good reliability. Predictable linear capacitance change with operating temperature.	Capacitance changes with change in applied voltage, with frequency and with aging effects.
Class-II High dielectric strength Type Ceramic Capacitors	Barium titanate based dielectrics	Smaller than Class-I type due to higher dielectric strength of ceramics used.	Not as stable as Class-I type.
Aluminium Electrolytic Capacitors	Aluminium oxide	Very large capacitance to volume ratio, inexpensive.	Dielectric leakage is high, large internal inductances limit the high frequency performance, poor low temperature stability and loose tolerances. These have been found to burst open when overloaded.
Tantalum Electrolytic Capacitors	Tantalum oxides	Large capacitance to volume ratio, smaller size, good stability, wide operating temperature range, long reliable operating life. Extensively used in miniaturised equipment and computers. Available in both polarised and unpolarised varieties. Solid tantalums have much better characteristics than their wet counterparts.	<center>-
Alternating current oil-filled Capacitors	Oil-impregnated paper	Primarily designed to provide very large capacitance for industrial AC applications to withstand large currents and high peak voltages at power line frequencies. The applications include AC motor starting and running, phase splitting, power factor correction, voltage regulation, control equipment, etc..	<center>-
Direct current oil-filled capacitors	Paper or Paper-polyester film combination	Primarily designed for DC applications such as Filtering, Bypassing, Coupling, Arc suppression, voltage doubling, etc..	Operating voltage rating must be derated as per the curve supplied by the manufacturer if the DC contains ripple.
Energy Storage Capacitors	Kraft capacitor paper impregnated with electrical grade castor oil	Designed specifically for intermittent duty discharge applications. These are charged normally in milliseconds and made to discharge through a resistive or other critically damped load in a time period ranging from a few nanoseconds to a few hours. Typical applications include Biomedical equipment, high intensity flash tubes, masers, lasers and welders.	<center>-

edit Non-idealities of practical capacitors

[edit] Q factor, dissipation and tan-delta

Capacitors have "Q" (quality) factor (and the inverse, dissipation factor or tan-delta) which relates capacitance at a certain frequency to the dielectric loss. The higher this figure, the more lossy the capacitor. Tan-delta is the tangent of the phase angle between voltage and current in the capacitor. This angle is sometimes called the loss angle. It is related to the power factor which is zero for an ideal capacitor.

[edit] Equivalent series resistance (ESR)

This is an effective resistance that is used to describe the resistive parts of the impedance of certain electronic components. The theoretical treatment of devices such as capacitors and inductors tends to assume they are ideal or "perfect" devices, contributing only capacitance or inductance to the circuit. However, all physical devices are constructed of materials with finite electrical resistance, which means that all real-world components contain some resistance in addition to their other properties. A typical ESR for a low esr capacitor is 0.01 Ω Low values are preferred for high-current, pulse applications. Since capacitors have such low ESRs, they have the capacity to deliver huge currents into short circuits, which can be dangerous.

For capacitors, ESR takes into account the internal lead and plate resistances and other factors. An easy way to deal with these inherent resistances in circuit analysis is to express each real capacitor as a combination of an ideal component and a small resistor in series, the resistor having a value equal to the resistance of the physical device.

[edit] Equivalent series inductance (ESL)

ESL in signal capacitors is mainly caused by the leads used to connect the plates to the outside world and the series interconnects used to join sets of plates together internally. For any real-world capacitor, there is a frequency above DC at which it ceases to behave as a pure capacitance. This is called the (first) resonant frequency. This is critically important with decoupling high-speed logic circuits from the power supply. The decoupling capacitor supplies transient current to the chip. Without decouplers, the IC demands current faster than the connection to the power supply can supply it, as parts of the circuit rapidly switch on and off. Large capacitors tend to have much higher ESL than small ones. As a result, electronics will frequently use multiple bypass capacitors — a small 0.1 µF rated for high frequencies and a large electrolytic rated for lower frequencies, and occasionally, an intermediate value capacitor.

[edit] Voltage

Important properties of capacitors are the maximum working voltage (potential, measured in volts) and the amount of energy lost in the dielectric. For high-power or high-speed capacitors, the maximum ripple current are further considerations.

[edit] Temperature dependence

Another major non-ideality is temperature coefficient (change in capacitance with temperature) which is usually quoted in parts per million (ppm) per degree Celsius.

[edit] Aging

When refurbishing old (especially audio) equipment, it is a good idea to replace all of the electrolyte-based caps. After long storage electrolytic capacitors may deteriorate; before powering up equipment with old electrolytics, it may be useful to apply low voltage to allow the capacitors to reform before applying full voltage. Non polarised capacitors also suffer from aging, changing their values slightly over long periods of time.

[edit] Soakage

In the construction of long-time-constant integrators, it is important that the capacitor does not retain a residual charge when shorted. This phenomenon of unwanted charge storage is called dielectric absorption or soakage, and it creates a memory effect in the capacitor. This is a non-linear phenomenon, and is important when building very low distortion filters.

[edit] Non-linearity

Capacitors may also change capacitance with applied voltage. This effect is more prevalent in high 'k' and some high voltage capacitors. This can be another small source of non-linearity when building low distortion filters.

[edit] Leakage

Capacitors also have some level of parasitic resistance across the terminals which is called 'leakage'. This fundamentally limits how long capacitors can store charge. Historically, this was a major source of problems in some types of applications (long RC timers, sample-and-holds, etc.)

edit See also

[Deang]

This thread needs to be sucked into a Black Hole.

AWW shucks Dean, whats sa matta for you ? Audiophiles talking about (GASP) buying caps and crossover parts from someone else, besides your omnipotence?

Wow, you nailed it. [:S]

...Lighten up,open your mind, a mind, like a parachute, works best when open...

Someone once said that if you're mind is too open, your brains fall out.