A Mistake Changing the TYPE Of Capacitors In Old Klipsch Speakers

[ka7niq]

and that "resistor" trick is why the Selenium D250X's sound so good when swapped in instead of a K-55 on K-401 or K-701 horns. Put a 6w or 8w inline and see what happens.....

tubey.... pleasantly "smeared", because the distortion is the even order harmonics that sound "lush" or pleasant to our ears. That is a charateristic of tube designs and why the so-called distortion figures should be ignored... at least until you listen to that particular amp. That can be as high as 5% before it becomes apparent.

Ever wonder why Kathleen Turner's voice as "Jessica Rabbit" makes you want to commit crimes just to have an hour alone with Ms. Turner in a conversation.... (Tina's voice does it for me as well....)

Will selenium d250x work on a cornwall 2 ?

look at some of their drivers http://www.technicalhifi.com/prods.php?prod=DU-1000

[freddyi]

sounds like Selenium 250x are a great deal - re: "Technical Pro" - isn't that a Chinese manufacturer?

[ka7niq]

Probably ?

Wondere if selenium will work on Cornwall 2's ?

Groomlakearea51 has corn 1's

Hey Freddy, it is said thaT cornwalls have a dip at 600 hz due to woofer/floor interference ?

EQ will probably help, if that is the case ?

[freddyi]

I'm not hip on Cornwalls but found the following examination of them http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-speakers/744-review-klipsch-cornwall-iii-vs-cornwall-i.html

wonder if a partition or obstacle in the box would do much? - I wouldn't apply boost to a dip like that one - one could try.

nice looking speakers - great company & forums

[ka7niq]

I'm not hip on Cornwalls but found the following examination of them http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-speakers/744-review-klipsch-cornwall-iii-vs-cornwall-i.html

wonder if a partition or obstacle in the box would do much? - I wouldn't apply boost to a dip like that one - one could try.

nice looking speakers - great company & forums

why not freddy ? wonder if the cornwall 2's have this dip as well, or if the crossover fixes it ?

That is a BAD place for a Dip Freddy, ya need to get from 100 to 10000 as FLAT as possible!

[Guest David H]

The selenium is a thread on driver, I believe the Cornwall II used a bolt on K-53-k with a K-601 horn. IMO the K-53-K is a better driver.

I ran some tests on the DX-250, and found that it exhibits early rolloff around 4khz, the K-53-k was strong past 6khz.

Here is a link on how I adapted the K-53-k from a K-601 to a wood Tractrix horn. http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/124760/1261257.aspx#1261257

If you had a Cornwall 1, I would reccomend replacing the midhorn to smooth out the mids, but I don't have a good solution for installation on the Cornwall 2. Here is a pic of a Cornwall / Cornscala restored and upgraded by Bliss here on the forums.

[ka7niq]

The selenium is a thread on driver, I believe the Cornwall II used a bolt on K-53-k with a K-601 horn. IMO the K-53-K is a better driver.

I ran some tests on the DX-250, and found that it exhibits early rolloff around 4khz, the K-k3-k was strong past 6khz.

Here is a link on how I adapted the K-53-k from a K-601 to a wood Tractrix horn. http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/124760/1261257.aspx#1261257

If you had a Cornwall 1, I would reccomend replacing the midhorn to smooth out the mids, but I don't have a good solution for installation on the Cornwall 2. Here is a pic of a Cornwall / Cornscala restored and upgraded by Bliss here on the forums.

I hear a little horniness in cornwall 2, not too bad, and liveable.

I think the problem is the 15 inch drivers reproduction of male voices, and instrument fundamentals in it's operating area ?

Speech, especially male voices, just dont sound nearly as good as several other speakers I own.

Where could one get the specs like impedance vs frequency, efficiency theil small data for the cornwall 2 woofer ?

maybe I will Con eminence into make a super woofer, for ME LOL

[Guest David H]

I think the problem is the 15 inch drivers reproduction of male voices, and instrument fundamentals in it's operating area ?

I dont have the numbers you are looking for, but I assure you the woofer is not a problem in the C-II, unless the woofer is damaged.

Speech, especially male voices, just dont sound nearly as good as several other speakers I own.

I agree, and I believe the squalker is the culprit, which is the primary reason for the Cornscala. It offers better voicing smoother mids, and sounds overall natural.

I hear a little horniness in cornwall 2, not too bad, and liveable.

The combination of the K-601 horn and crossover is likely why the speaker sounds harsh and overly bright. You would really have to compare to a Cornscala to understand. I certainly understand your scepticism.

Dave Harris

[ka7niq]

SNAP...love the sound of a trap snapping shut.

Here is what the B&W Engineers have to say about the matter of changing crossover caps, printed in it's entirety, for all to see.

Can I upgrade my speakers?

We always endeavour to use the best and most appropriate components in our products, commensurate with current knowledge and any cost constraints, so we believe they offer excellent value. However, many customers ask if they can upgrade their speakers in one way or another.

Before we discuss specifics, a word of warning......
If any person, other than an authorised agent of B&W Group Ltd, makes any modification to any B&W product, or if an agent of B&W Group Ltd makes a modification not approved by the company, the company reserves the right to consider any outstanding warranty on the product null and void.
That may seem a little draconian, but it's a bit of legalese we have to use because we have no clue as to how competent you might be. However, if that hasn't put you off, read on....
We are reasonable people and will always try to help you if you get in a mess.

Some ask if they can convert one version of a model to another (eg Matrix 801 Series 2 to Series 3). In general it is not easy to do this, because we have a tendency to change the way we put things together when we make a model change. That usually means that the new parts do not fit in the old system. That is certainly true of the Matrix 801 variants. In many cases it may be cheaper to trade in the older model for the newer one than buy all the new parts and have them fitted.

The most common questions about component upgrades refer to crossover components and internal cables, but occasionally people ask if they can substitute a more recent driver in an old system.

Cables are not really a problem as long as you can actually feed the cables where they have to go. Some of the routes are narrow. The hollow rod joining the Matrix 801 midrange enclosure to the main cabinet is a case in point. Beware of getting rattles when laying the cable. Make sure it cannot vibrate against drivers or the enclosure walls. In this respect it is better to use cable with a soft insulation.

We usually find that customers who alter crossover components are not fully satisfied with the results. They find that some aspects are improved, but others made worse. A classic case of this is when a polypropylene or other very low-loss type substitutes an electrolytic capacitor. We all know that polypropylene capacitors can sound inherently better, but the change in internal losses changes the response of the filter, which is designed assuming the losses of the electrolytic component. What usually happens when the low loss component is fitted is that the corners of the roll-off are sharpened, giving a peak in the combined response that can make the sound unpleasant in various ways depending on the crossover frequency. One way of getting round this is to wire a small resistor in series with the capacitor to approximate the original losses. I say approximate because the loss factor is a frequency dependent resistance. The actual value you need depends on the original capacitor loss factor and its capacitance value. The larger the value, the lower the resistance for a given loss factor.

The formula for the equivalent resistance is:
R = d / (2π fC)
where R = resistance in ohms, d = loss factor, f = frequency in Hz and C = capacitance in farads.

Loss factor is usually expressed as a percentage at 1kHz. For a "low-loss" electrolytic such as the values between 1μF and 20μF found in tweeter circuits, d is of the order of 0.025 (loss factor of 2.5%). For values in the hundreds of microfarads it may be of the order of 0.07 or 7%. Typically therefore a good electrolytic capacitor of 5μF would have an equivalent series resistance of 0.8Ω. If the capacitor has a much larger resistor in series with it anyway, it's probably not worth altering.

The same argument applies if you substitute a cored inductor with an air core type. Always try to duplicate the DC resistance as well as the inductance. Sometimes inductors are deliberately wound with relatively fine wire to give a certain resistance to add damping to the circuit. Iron dust cores (sometimes called P-cores) have higher losses at higher frequencies than at lower, due to eddy current effects. Substitution of an air core, even of the same DC resistance, may give a steeper ultimate slope in the stop band that can alter the phase relationship between the two drivers. That can also mess up the overall response and skew the optimum listening angle a little.

The term crossover is a little misleading. The networks add equalisation in the driver's pass band as well as dividing up the frequency range. Substituting a different driver more often than not needs a change in the crossover to give the appropriate equalisation for that particular unit. Simply plugging in a different (even nominally better) driver without attending to this often disappoints.

As you can see, it's a potential minefield and difficult to get the optimum result without proper measuring facilities. Adjustment just by ear tends to give good results on limited programme material and you can usually come across some other piece that sounds less than acceptable.

Ka7niq here again, and I take exception to this last underlined sentence. I added Crites Titanium Diapraghms to my Cornwalls, and it was the best 60 bucks I ever spent, and I did not mod the crossover, except to change caps with same value ones.

[ka7niq]

I think the problem is the 15 inch drivers reproduction of male voices, and instrument fundamentals in it's operating area ?

I dont have the numbers you are looking for, but I assure you the woofer is not a problem in the C-II, unless the woofer is damaged.

Speech, especially male voices, just dont sound nearly as good as several other speakers I own.

I agree, and I believe the squalker is the culprit, which is the primary reason for the Cornscala. It offers better voicing smoother mids, and sounds overall natural.

I hear a little horniness in cornwall 2, not too bad, and liveable.

The combination of the K-601 horn and crossover is likely why the speaker sounds harsh and overly bright. You would really have to compare to a Cornscala to understand. I certainly understand your scepticism.

Dave Harris

Thanks Dave! What do you do to the crossover to make a Cornscala, does it use the stock crossover ?

Why that particular horn, and not a controlled directivety one for better imaging ?

EV made some good sounding CD Horns, but will they FIT is the question ?

[freddyi]

not to worry on my Heresy I inductor as the woofer without "Zoebel" (would that have helped soundwise in this case?) on-axis goes over an octave higher than the squawker crossover point

note the push-terminal K55's double dip up high leaving an area of ~9Khz on the squawker that's about 6dB down from the tweeter's

output in that region - - -what do 700 horn polars look like?

[Guest David H]

Thanks Dave! What do you do to the crossover to make a Cornscala, does it use the stock crossover ?

I have no experiance with the Cornwall II crossover, but crossover re-design is not required for this horn change.

Why that particular horn, and not a controlled directivety one for better imaging ?

I like the wood Tractrix, it offers lower distortion and smooth response. There are of course other horns avilable that may work well, but my preference is Tractrix.

EV made some good sounding CD Horns, but will they FIT is the question ?

Will they fit is always the question, that is why I custom built the Fastrac for the Cornwall, I wanted the largest horn with the lowest fc that I could fit. The newest revision Fastrac Cornwall is a 400Hz fc horn.

[ka7niq]

not to worry on my Heresy I inductor as the woofer without "Zoebel" (would that have helped soundwise in this case?) on-axis goes over an octave higher than the squawker crossover point

note the push-terminal K55's double dip up high leaving an area of ~9Khz on the squawker that's about 6dB down from the tweeter's

output in that region - - -what do 700 horn polars look like?

This is over my head Freddy, but look at the post below I found.

Capacitor Sound Blind Test Results

---

Last Saturday (Oct 9), I had the great experience of attending an annual meeting of DIY speaker builders mainly from the Washington, DC area, the DC2004 DIY meeting. It was organized by Dennis Murphy, Peter Smith, Neil Davis, Bob Cardell, Ken Ahern and others who I can't remember. It was my first time at such a meeting and I really enjoyed it. At least 20 speakers were presented by the builders. I can't say I heard any that sounded bad, although many were different and some were outstanding. My reason for posting this is not to describe the DIY speakers, but someting different.

As a side show to the speakers, the organizers performed blind listening tests of various expensive (Solen metalized polypropylene), moderate (mylar), and cheap (electrolytic) capacitors mounted in the crossovers of several speakers. They built crossovers that contained two different capacitors that could be switched by the listener via a remote controlled relay. The bottom line was that there was no evidence of an ability to hear a difference or to prefer one capacitor type over another. I had never been part of a blind listening test before and it was actually fun and illuminating. Most people there were very interested in the findings, and we talked about it for several hours afterwards. I'm afraid it did overshadow the speakers themselves.

The details of these test are presented at the Madisound discussion board http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/discuss.cgi

Pay attention to at least these threads:

• DCDIY2004 is a wrap Dennis Murphy (pool-151-200-49-42.res.east.verizon.net) -- 10/9 8:06p.m. http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/dis...gi?read=320118
• More Cap Test Results Dennis Murphy (pool-151-200-38-6.res.east.verizon.net) -- 10/10 11:12a.m. http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/dis...gi?read=320147
• Capacitor Listening Test Methodology Bob (pcp09279223pcs.eatntn01.nj.comcast.net) -- 10/10 11:29a.m. http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/dis...gi?read=320152
• Cap Listening Test Results Bob (pcp09279223pcs.eatntn01.nj.comcast.net) -- 10/10 12:05p.m. http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/dis...gi?read=320154
• Measurements for Cap Test Dennis Murphy (pool-151-200-139-152.res.east.verizon.net) -- 10/11 6:57p.m. http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/dis...gi?read=320426

If you are interested enough to wade through the discussions that followed the above posts you will hear all the usual tired arguments speculating about why blind listening tests are invalid or should be ignored. Some of you will recognize one of the participants in particular (whose intitals are JR). I think all the objectors missed the point. No single listening test is perfect from all scientific or statistical viewpoints. This was a simple and limited (no more than 30 people participated) test that clearly showed there is little reason to do more elaborate testing concerning capacitors. I understand a similar test is planned for the upcoming DIY meeting in Dayton, Ohio to see if this can be repeated.

The organizers worked very hard to produce a fair test of the peoples' ability to hear potential differences in sound due to capacitors. The important take home lesson is quite simple. If you object to what was done, get busy and do your own test.

Swerd

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[Invidiosulus]

CD horns require an EQ boost on the top end to keep the freq response flat.

[ka7niq]

CD horns require an EQ boost on the top end to keep the freq response flat.

No prob, with an electronic crossover!

[ka7niq]

and that "resistor" trick is why the Selenium D250X's sound so good when swapped in instead of a K-55 on K-401 or K-701 horns. Put a 6w or 8w inline and see what happens.....

tubey.... pleasantly "smeared", because the distortion is the even order harmonics that sound "lush" or pleasant to our ears. That is a charateristic of tube designs and why the so-called distortion figures should be ignored... at least until you listen to that particular amp. That can be as high as 5% before it becomes apparent.

Ever wonder why Kathleen Turner's voice as "Jessica Rabbit" makes you want to commit crimes just to have an hour alone with Ms. Turner in a conversation.... (Tina's voice does it for me as well....)

Hey, since you told me what You do for a living on that Lake in South Florida, here is what I do www.saferoofcleaning.com up in Tampa, so if you ever want to know how to safely clean a roof w/o using pressure cleaning, I will show you.

That goes for any other audiophiles as well []

[Don Richard]

CD horns require an EQ boost on the top end to keep the freq response flat.

No prob, with an electronic crossover!

It takes two added components to CD EQ a passive xover, a resistor and a cap.

[freddyi]

Danley's Unity, Geddes' Summa, and probably some "Econowave" setups achieve higher sensitivity than Heresy I and should maintain reasonably good CD behavior within the window and size of their waveguides all with passive EQ - I can put a little Karlson tube on top of a JBL 4638 and that gives the illusion of wide dispersion

[ka7niq]

CD horns require an EQ boost on the top end to keep the freq response flat.

No prob, with an electronic crossover!

It takes two added components to CD EQ a passive xover, a resistor and a cap.

What do u think about sticking a CD horn in a cornwall 2 ? anyone ever done it ?

[Invidiosulus]

Danley's Unity, Geddes' Summa, and probably some "Econowave" setups achieve higher sensitivity than Heresy I and should maintain reasonably good CD behavior within the window and size of their waveguides all with passive EQ - I can put a little Karlson tube on top of a JBL 4638 and that gives the illusion of wide dispersion

I'd prefer to not have the 30 degree hole in the center of my dispersion that Geddes finds perfectly acceptable.

-Josh