A Mistake Changing the TYPE Of Capacitors In Old Klipsch Speakers

[freddyi]

hi Josh - how deep is that hole? do you like Danley's result? Freddy

[Invidiosulus]

It might not be that wide now that I think about it but IIRC it was around 6db or so deep on axis.

Earl Geddes doesn't intend for anybody to ever listen to his speakers on axis so I guess it's not a problem.

-Josh

[freddyi]

I've no way to audition Earl's speakers and only know the Unity from putting one on this enclosure as a quick kludge

[ka7niq]

May I HUMBLY submit Bob, that when ever you change a capacitor to a different type, you are changing the sound. The best choice for capacitor replacement in any speaker is to replace with a new version ( if available ) of the same cap. if you can't get that, the next best choice is to replace with same TYPE. IOW a Mylar with same, or electrolytic with same. If you are stupid enough to replace with a Poly, the change in ESR and other factors will change the Q of the crossover filter, and seldom for the better [:'(] Like it or not, sometimes circuits are designed around what you call "Bad Capacitors".

Put a real good cap in a circuit designed around a "bad capacitor", and guess what ? You suddenly have a bastard circuit the designer never intended.

[Deang]

With respect, I think you're confused. The "Q" of a filter is just a way of describing or determining the behavior of the filter near the cut-off frequency. The "Q" of the circuit is determined by the capacitance and inductance values of the circuit, and those values will determine if the filter is a Butterworth, quasi-Butterworth, Bessel, Chebyshev, etc. The type of capacitor you use has absolutely nothing to do with the "Q" of the filter.

Using low ESR capacitors will slightly elevate the output of the driver relative to what one was used to before the change was made, however, the sound is cleaner and more open. If one thinks the speaker is no longer balanced and a bit too forward, the problem can more often than not be rectified by a change in placement, or in the case of the Klipschorn -- attenuated.

[killer clown]

Thank you,Dean for getting back to the crust of the biscuit.

[ka7niq]

Also, with respect Dean, I have met John Bowers of B&W, actually ate Pizza with him after hours at Vegas CES. My best friend at that time owned Seattle's best high end store. I had B&W Matrix 801's at that time, and was considering putting a Teflon Capacitor on the Tweeter. John Bowers patiently explained to me that a Teflon Capacitor WAS better, in an absolute sense. He also warned me NOT to change any capacitors in the Matrix 801. He was well aware I am a Ham, and know how to solder, use heat sinks, etc, etc. He told me of the many hours he spent designing his crossover around THAT Capacitor that comes stock in an 801. So, like the audio fool I was, I did it anyway! I used paper in oil, both Russian and american, vintage and NOS both.

I tried Sideral Caps (remember those), Swollen, Red Clarity Caps, ERSE Polycaps, Auricaps, Bennic, Mundorf, you name it, I tried it (never Sonicaps), and guess what ? John Bowers of B&W was right! I did not listen again when I re did my Cornwall 2's, they sound like chit, redone with ALL Poly Caps.

I just lucked into a pair Of Electro Voice Sentry III's ( I Love them), and I will not make the same mistakes on them, though they have a tweeter pot. Just adjusting the tweeter Level can not compensate for the damage done to the crossover by substituting a Poly cap for the stock Mylar.

I went all ERSE caps again for the Electrolytics and Mylars. You are correct, Mylar or Electrolytic low ESR caps DO cause a brighter sound, exactly what a Klipsch speaker DON'T Need, IMHO The vast research done up in Canada by the NRC has clearly shown the a DIP is much better then a PEAK.

[jannegard1]

hello i have change my caps in type a crossovers bobs crossovers 4500hz whith russian paper in oil and iam happy for the resultat sound sweet[]

[JJkizak]

Ka7niq:

What you say makes a lot of sense. One must have a finite understanding of the physical laws and constants that exist in our Milky Way Galazy.

JJK

[ka7niq]

Ka7niq:

What you say makes a lot of sense. One must have a finite understanding of the physical laws and constants that exist in our Milky Way Galaxy.

JJK

Thanks, like Dean G admitted, a low ESR cap replacing one with higher ESR causes a peak, exactly what you DON'T want, especially in the bright speakers Klipsch makes. I think our Forum Dwelling Capacitor Sellers and fellow audiophiles might want to make high quality Electrolytics and Mylars available to their customers ? Maybe Bob Crites might make a replacement crossover WITHOUT those Sonicaps, and fitted with the OEM Type of capacitors. Just like Decaf Coffee, or regular Coffee, prospective buyers can now have a CHOICE of the correct replacement crossover with OEM Type capacitors, or one with Bright sounding low ESR Caps ? Of course, there is not as much Ca$h Money in selling crossovers with OEM Caps []

It is "common knowledge" that replacing worn out high esr OLD caps with new Poly Caps make a "big difference" LOL

But had they replaced the shot out older caps with the same TYPE they would be even more pleased. It is time to put an END to this BS.Been there 25 times, don that, ruined the speakers, until I LEARNED, and simply replaced the Poly Caps with electrolytic and mylar caps Klipsch Intended to be IN there. IF Electrolytic and Mylar are "so bad" then WTF are they doing in Klipsch and other well regarded speakers anyway ? To think you "need" Poly Caps is a mistake, unless you want a "slightly brighter speaker" LOL

I sit and laugh at the when guys buy expensive SET amps to "tame" Klipsch speakers, then stupidly put lower ESR caps to make em brighter. This is kind of like digging a ditch, and keep kicking dirt back into the hole, I have even PURPOSLY substituted High ESR Non Polar Electrolytics for Mylars! This trick has mellowed out many a shrill speaker! tHE HIGHER esr AND df fACTOR OF THE ELECTROLYTIC Caps, sorry about the caps, causes a dip and reduction in driver output. JUST the thing for taming a bright speaker, where peaks were ignored, in favor of Efficiency. Perhaps Klipsch will learn a few things fro The ENERGY Engineers, if they were wise enough to keep some ? The Canadiens learned long ago that if you have a choice of a dip of a peak, the dip is FAR less audible!

[Don Richard]

I think BEC runs curves on all of the xovers he rebuilds to ensure proper performance. If low ESR caps were a problem this test would reveal that problem by shifting levels and/or xover freqs.

Since the manufacturer of B&W speakers advises not using lower ESR caps than stock, don't mess with the caps on B&W loudspeaker products.

[ka7niq]

I think BEC runs curves on all of the xovers he rebuilds to ensure proper performance. If low ESR caps were a problem this test would reveal that problem by shifting levels and/or xover freqs.

Since the manufacturer of B&W speakers advises not using lower ESR caps than stock, don't mess with the caps on B&W loudspeaker products.

I dont cARE ABOUTCURVES, EXCEPT on girls, sorry for caps. John Bowers of B&W was a gifted engineer, his advice belongs to ANY speaker crossover.

I have probably re done as many speakers as anyone here, and I know what my ears tell me, as confirmed by Dean G. Low ESR caps are brighter, and change the drivers output. Go re cap with Low ESR Poly Caps, I have some SET amps I will sell you cheap to tame the beast, LOL Paper in oil caps are popular because of high ESR that tamed bright speakers, due to insertion loss, remember, a DIP is better then a PEAK ?

[Audible Nectar]

Maybe Bob Crites might make a replacement crossover WITHOUT those Sonicaps, and fitted with the OEM Type of capacitors. Just like Decaf Coffee, or regular Coffee, prospective buyers can now have a CHOICE of the correct replacement crossover with OEM Type capacitors, or one with Bright sounding low ESR Caps ? Of course, there is not as much Ca$h Money in selling crossovers with OEM Caps

"Flag on the play"[:@]

The insinuation that Bob uses white Sonicaps for profit purposes is without merit. Bob used nearly identical can capacitors (I know, as I have a set for Belle Klipsch right here) until he could no longer get those cans, then switched to white Sonicaps as it seemed a reasonable alternative. Many, many happy customers - although I'll agree many would prefer to do some cap tweaking....

Those "refurbished to new" networks with fresh oil type can caps are NOTHING SPECIAL. They do have a nice presentation at modest volume, but put any watts on them whatsoever and they get mushy in a HURRY. And the detail is just - mehhhh. They are OK - they are what got me interested in Klipsch, but I am not one who thinks you have to go 100% original to be valid.

Alongside those recapped to new oil capped Belle networks are the identical high quality parted network with V-Cap OIMP (these are NOT the usual V-Cap teflon) which are quite possibly the best combination of clarity, detail, and just enough wetness to avoid that beaminess - unless it's your gear, of course.

Some of these SET amps are built with parts that accuntuate the high frequencies (especially in the upper mids) which almost make oil caps in the crossovers a requirement. On the other hand, I have rolled a number of solid state AND tube gears on the V-Cap Belles and they pretty much show you what the gear sounds like. Which given my spread of vintage Mac tube and SS as well as modern tube gears they all sound pretty good, and some fabulous!

There is some merit in many of your observations but I see a bit too much "absolutism" in your opinion that Klipsch cannot be altered beyond the stock cap formula on the networks. You are correct with the opinion that cap changes DO alter the sound and that's something we are well aware of, and might not always be a good idea for everyone, or every speaker. There are, however, numerous forum members using a variety of different cap types and brands here, as well as network formulae, and they ALL have some purpose/validity. I kept my stock rebuilds for my speakers in any case, but I have found preferable (for me) aftermarket solutions in EVERY case. As long as one keeps thier originals they can always go back, and feel free to experiment on thier own.

I find the "if it's modded it's not Klipsch" to be [bs]. If I'm not selling them to you, it's not much of a specific concern to you, although the discussion of how the changes will alter a given set of speakers is warranted. This is, in fact a major reason we are here. But the dogma has soooooooooo gotta go.....

[Audible Nectar]

I think BEC runs curves on all of the xovers he rebuilds to ensure proper performance. If low ESR caps were a problem this test would reveal that problem by shifting levels and/or xover freqs.

Since the manufacturer of B&W speakers advises not using lower ESR caps than stock, don't mess with the caps on B&W loudspeaker products.

Curves don't tell the whole story, though. They do tell you that they are "good/in the neighborhood" but will not tell you about all the aspects and details of the sonics. Very much akin to tube rolling. You CAN get added "edge gleam", rasp, or "wooliness" that isn't so evident by looking at the plot, but is audible when listening. I wasn't totally happy until I spent $600 on the V-Cap builds - and I listened to about 5 different networks before I quit.

I typically advise one who rolls caps to be prepared to roll 'em again because not all the changes are desireable in every case.

[ka7niq]

Maybe Bob Crites might make a replacement crossover WITHOUT those Sonicaps, and fitted with the OEM Type of capacitors. Just like Decaf Coffee, or regular Coffee, prospective buyers can now have a CHOICE of the correct replacement crossover with OEM Type capacitors, or one with Bright sounding low ESR Caps ? Of course, there is not as much Ca$h Money in selling crossovers with OEM Caps

"Flag on the play"

The insinuation that Bob uses white Sonicaps for profit purposes is without merit. Bob used nearly identical can capacitors (I know, as I have a set for Belle Klipsch right here) until he could no longer get those cans, then switched to white Sonicaps as it seemed a reasonable alternative. Many, many happy customers - although I'll agree many would prefer to do some cap tweaking....

Those "refurbished to new" networks with fresh oil type can caps are NOTHING SPECIAL. They do have a nice presentation at modest volume, but put any watts on them whatsoever and they get mushy in a HURRY. And the detail is just - mehhhh. They are OK - they are what got me interested in Klipsch, but I am not one who thinks you have to go 100% original to be valid.

Alongside those recapped to new oil capped Belle networks are the identical high quality parted network with V-Cap OIMP (these are NOT the usual V-Cap teflon) which are quite possibly the best combination of clarity, detail, and just enough wetness to avoid that beaminess - unless it's your gear, of course.

Some of these SET amps are built with parts that accuntuate the high frequencies (especially in the upper mids) which almost make oil caps in the crossovers a requirement. On the other hand, I have rolled a number of solid state AND tube gears on the V-Cap Belles and they pretty much show you what the gear sounds like. Which given my spread of vintage Mac tube and SS as well as modern tube gears they all sound pretty good, and some fabulous!

There is some merit in many of your observations but I see a bit too much "absolutism" in your opinion that Klipsch cannot be altered beyond the stock cap formula on the networks. You are correct with the opinion that cap changes DO alter the sound and that's something we are well aware of, and might not always be a good idea for everyone, or every speaker. There are, however, numerous forum members using a variety of different cap types and brands here, as well as network formulae, and they ALL have some purpose/validity. I kept my stock rebuilds for my speakers in any case, but I have found preferable (for me) aftermarket solutions in EVERY case. As long as one keeps thier originals they can always go back, and feel free to experiment on thier own.

I find the "if it's modded it's not Klipsch" to be . If I'm not selling them to you, it's not much of a specific concern to you, although the discussion of how the changes will alter a given set of speakers is warranted. This is, in fact a major reason we are here. But the dogma has soooooooooo gotta go.....

LOL, you can roll all you want with Belles, and ya still got Belles, a beautiful piece of furnitre, and little else. If you can't hear the folded horn colorations,and the woofer playing well up into the midrange, with lower midrange fundamentals ping ponging off the un damped wood walls, dude, what CAN you hear ? I have owned 2 sets of Belles, I hated them, wife loved em, cause they were pretty. I just could not live with that folded horn coloration.

You are used to it evidentally, just never come to Florida and hear Matix 801's ? once you have heard a TRUE low coloration speaker, where violins dont screech at you, and voices sound real, there is no going back. I just picked up some Electrovoice Sentry III's that will destroy any klipsch speaker I have EVER heard. My advice ? Sell your pretty furniture, and FIND a pair, or some Altec Model 19's maybe ? The EV Sentry III's will go to 28 hz with the E/V equalizer, their midrange horn is a fiber composite,and they have the E/V 350 tweeter that goes way out. They are not QUITE as uincolored as 801's, but real close, and they will rattle the room with low bass. Audiophile to Audiophile, what I tell you is true, The Altec Model 19,and The lesser known E/V Sentry III's are just in another league, it is true. Sell the Belle's, hey that rhymes, to some Klipschead,and use the Money to buy Altec Model 19's or E/V Sentry III's. That is my honest advice to you, stop torturing yourself ?

[Deang]

I have a better idea, why don't you stop torturing us.

[cjgeraci]

I concur.

I wonder if the 801s have a little shrine in front of them.

Carl.

[killer clown]

The boys on the hill(Killer Clown and co-counsel/defender of unmolested high current... Sick Bast_rd) would like to toss an accelerant on the fire.We recently purchased a pair of B&K crossovers and installed them yesterday.We would like to testify(and give credit...where credit is due)as to the the scope of the impact of a neccesary crossover change.The change was due to age and the molestation current....to our ears.After installing the new(not rebuilt) said crossovers we were astounded by the impact of the well designed and quality workmanship of the new crossovers.The new dynamics and overall warmth of the improved tonal balance made us want to sacrifice a virgin.We recognize the unknowing and accept their special needs.P.S. Bob post your favorite poison and we will lift a glass or two on the day we meet.

[ka7niq]

The boys on the hill(Killer Clown and co-counsel/defender of unmolested high current... Sick Bast_rd) would like to toss an accelerant on the fire.We recently purchased a pair of B&K crossovers and installed them yesterday.We would like to testify(and give credit...where credit is due)as to the the scope of the impact of a neccesary crossover change.The change was due to age and the molestation current....to our ears.After installing the new(not rebuilt) said crossovers we were astounded by the impact of the well designed and quality workmanship of the new crossovers.The new dynamics and overall warmth of the improved tonal balance made us want to sacrifice a virgin.We recognize the unknowing and accept their special needs.P.S. Bob post your favorite poison and we will lift a glass or two on the day we meet.

Bob Crites is a great guy! I have his titanium diapraghms in my Cornwall 2's. He is a wealth of knowledge, and IMHO a great asset to any audiophile. The same for DeanG, and KKK, oops, I meant ALK [] I think perhaps they should make OEM crossovers with as close to original capacitor parts as possible availiable, for those of us that prefer to keep our speakers stock. Really, many Klipsch speakers are ungodly bright and shrill, so lets be real for a minute.You don't see people gutting B&W 801's, they are a great speaker, as is. People GUT some Klipsch speakers, and go to heroic lengths, to TRY and make their speakers sound right.You know, if it aint broke, don't fix it ? It is my experience that the Klipsch speakers I have re capped were already bright enough, and the LAST thing they needed was a low ESR Cap to make em even more bright.

[seti]

Folded horn coloration? I have to call [bs]