A Mistake Changing the TYPE Of Capacitors In Old Klipsch Speakers

[ka7niq]

Yes, what did the B&W engineer mean when he said different types of caps can change the Q of the crossover ?

First get him to tell you what he means by "different type caps".

Bob

He meant changing the stock caps out for different types.

I understood him to say that even different brands of poly or mylar caps were different enough electrically to change the crossover.

The two things that could be different are capacitance and ESR. Is he claiming that there is something else?

Bob

Not that I understood.

He did infer that B&W in the 801 closely matches speakers.

Perhaps they measure caps for exact tolerance, and reject those that are even slightly off ?

He advised against changing caps, said the sound might be different, but highly unlikely it would be better.

You Kipsch guys are very different .

You guys use tone controls and EQ, a no no to many audiophiles.

You know, my Yamaha RX V1 has digital equalization I think, 5 or 6 bands only, but all EQ is done in digital domain.

Mark Levinson once told me he had Klipschorns at home with his Audio Pallet Equalizer, and said he felt Klipschorns with proper EQ, and the tweeters removed and turned verticaally was about as good a speaker as one couild get.

Perhaps I am going about this all wrong ?

Maybe I should just leave the low ESR ERSE Poly caps in the Cornwalls, and EQ it slightly, for my tastes ?

Do you guys think I should TRY some EQ maybe ?

[freddyi]

re:eq - anythings worth a try but I don't know what to recommend - fwiw I got a cheap Behringer digital eq with physical sliders and it can be used as a dac

[ka7niq]

re:eq - anythings worth a try but I don't know what to recommend - fwiw I got a cheap Behringer digital eq with physical sliders and it can be used as a dac

Albert Von Schweikert told me he sees and hears no penalty in using Digital EQ.

In fact, several high end speaker manufacturers are now selling speakers with digital "controllers" that allow both EQ and crossover changes.

Albert told me thaT EQ done in digital domain was free of the penaltys of Analog EQ.

Not really UP on how to EQ Freddy, no measurement Mics, stuff like that, just my ears.

Is that berringer EQ remote control ?

I think it would be better to sit and EQ from listening chair ?

I guyss we could rig a long interconnects to an EQ, have it at listening position, maybe adjust by ear ?

Is this the "secret" to making Klipsch speakers sound right, EQ them ?

Maybe PWK was right, make a speaker of as high efficiency as possible, ignore a peak or dip here and there, and then simply EQ it to sound right in your home ?

Is THIS what PWK wanted ?

What does PWK say about using EQ and Tone Controls, anyone know ??

[freddyi]

a really crude simulation of 1ohm ESR on 2uF showed about 0.7dB loss on a tweeter - Bob measures real systems so knows - don't beleive theres a remote so you might need a helper or somehow get the unit near your listening area - here'a a pic and its ~$150 shipped

665K image

http://www.behringer.de/EN/images/lightboxphotos/DEQ1024_P0220_Perspective_XXL.jpg

what's more transparent - a single cap/couple of cascaded old PIO caps? or several op-amp in series with electrolytics as couplers? (assuming those appear in this product) - does it matter? what really matters?

[ka7niq]

a really crude simulation of 1ohm ESR on 2uF showed about 0.7dB loss on a tweeter - Bob measures real systems so knows - don't beleive theres a remote so you might need a helper or somehow get the unit near your listening area - here'a a pic and its ~$150 shipped

665K image

http://www.behringer.de/EN/images/lightboxphotos/DEQ1024_P0220_Perspective_XXL.jpg

what's more transparent - a single cap/couple of cascaded old PIO caps? or several op-amp in series with electrolytics as couplers? (assuming those appear in this product) - does it matter? what really matters?

You know Freddy, I like a high efficiency speaker, especially my old EV Interface D's !!!!!!

I wish I NEVER sold them.

I like what the Cornwalls give my system in punch and dynamics, but I am used to B&W 801's and other speakers that just sound better.

I am a very fussy audiophile, like many here.

Maybe the Cornwall 2's can be improved to my ears with EQ ?

The BEC Crites Titanium Tweeter Diapraghms really made the tweeters sweeter sounding, very smooth.

But voices and music just sounds more real, tonally, on my 801's.

Even the excellent JBL S 412 P's , and my little Tannoy D 50's with 8 inch dual concentric drivers smoke the cornwalls, as far as making most instruments and voices sound right.

Perhaps the horns are interacting more with my room, causing bad response at my listening position.

Really Freddy, I WANT to like the Cornwall 2's.

They are the only speaker I currently own that blends properly with my dual monster 9 cu ft 15 inch subs!

The Cornwalls allow me to really turn the subs up during movies and dance music enough to impress people.

I think I am gonna try the Cornwalls back in there again, and use the digital EQ in the Yamaha RX V1

It is only 5 bands, but we shall see ?

In the meantime, gonna look for a digital EQ with remote control maybe ?

All this EQ stuff is new to me.

[ka7niq]

might one paraphrase BEC's comment to include changing/swapping amplifiers and dacs as $$$ EQ?

can one take a competent low priced push-pull solid state amp and add "something in series" (LCR/whatever) before and/or after it to emulate push pull tube, single ended triode and FET amps thus saving a pile of $?

I will tell you a very quick and dirty trick Bob Carver taught me one evening at his home near Seattle.

Take a 1/2 to 1 ohm Radio Shack white 10 watt resistor and place in series on ONE of the speaker leads only.

Or, you can place it at the amp instead for a change in sound.

The resistor effects the amps damping, too much resistance will screw up bass, depending on amp/speakers

It will make the amp tubey sounding, and open up the image.

I have went up to 3 ohms before, and the more resistors you have in series, the more tubey the sound becomes.

In fact, the old Phase Linear 400, with a couple of ohms in series, sounds very tubey!

[ka7niq]

Here is a remotely controlled digital EQ http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?item=AS-PROTEA-4-24RD&source=froogle

It will do up to 16 channels

[Invidiosulus]

Define Tubey.

[freddyi]

regarding the series resistor - I've used that and also taken a filament transformer and a 5K pot (2K would have worked fine) to get something like I figure Decware's "Gizmo" to be - the cap isn't needed but I took Z measurements of the thing with various settings of the pot plus a couple of caps - it made my Heresy on EP2500 sound kinda like a nice mushy tube amp with very high output Z and one can tune it while playing -core and small inductance add flavor. When the pot's getting near zero, the primary winding is choked down and damped and the reflections to the secondary winding don't have a lot of resistance - as the primary pot is cranked Z in general (not its dcr) goes upwards on the secondary.

Here's the impedance of the secondary which hooks in series with the speaker when the primary resistor was set to 508R

[ka7niq]

regarding the series resistor - I've used that and also taken a filament transformer and a 5K pot (2K would have worked fine) to get something like I figure Decware's "Gizmo" to be - the cap isn't needed but I took Z measurements of the thing with various settings of the pot plus a couple of caps - it made my Heresy on EP2500 sound kinda like a nice mushy tube amp with very high output Z and one can tune it while playing

I was at Bob Carvers home when he returned from new mexico, and showed stereophile he could make his amp sound juust like a CJ Premier tube amp!

I heard it for myself, at Bob's home!

The problem was, in production,, with all the variables, he was unable to make a solid state amp duplicate a tube amp, under ALL conditions.

The Carver T Mod amps are an attempt to get a tubey sounding sand amp.

It works on SOME speakers, but according to Carver, one must adjust an amp for a deep null against the tube amp they are seekin to duplicate the sound of.

But make NO mistake, Carver can do it, I heard it, and so did stereopile, just not in a production amp, too many variables.

[freddyi]

its way cool Bob Carver could get close a certain amount of the time - can it be done "before" the amp? fwiw I like those cheap Barcus Berry black boxes- like it or not that $79 box probably does "more" than $20K worth of audiophile box stuff []

[ka7niq]

its way cool Bob Carver could get close a certain amount of the time - can it be done "before" the amp? fwiw I like those cheap Barcus Berry black boxes- like it or not that $79 box probably does "more" than $20K worth of audiophile box stuff

He did it at the amp outputs If I recaLL ? I am tellin you I heard for myself the carver amp sound exactly like the Conrad Johnson Premier of Bob Carvers Dahlquist DQ 10's. Jon Dahlquits and he were close friends, and Jon sent him a hand tweaked pair, sounded great too, at Bob's home. I met Bob at Definitive Audio in Seattle, my friend mark was an owner back then, think he still is? I left Seattle is 89, been in Tampa ever since.

[freddyi]

did Bob Carver's "T" amps achieve similar result? I've seen comments that they didn't and that they did - why would the adjustment drift and what exactly did Carver do to emulate other amplifiers? Can a single coupling capacitor change from one "type" to another modify tone in DAC/phono preamp, etc?

[ka7niq]

To make one amp sound like another requires a modification of what Carver called the transfer function. What he did and how he did it are not known by me. Since the speakers and cables used are all part of the amps transfer function, and these vary among audiophiles, it is not possible to make the Carver T amps sonically identical to the reference amplifier they were designed to mimiic on every system.

Now, IF you knew the exact speakers and cable type and length, and used them with the T Mod amps, you would be in business!

But the slightest variance changes everything.

One of the Carver amps was designed to mimic a Mark Levinson amp Bob borrowed from Definitive Audio in Seattle.

As far as a cap change effecting sound in a DAC, many think it does. Much of this audio stuff is mental anyway, so if you THINK it does, it does, cheap thrills!

[freddyi]

LOL! - imo caps may have sound differences that would show up on things like bamboo flute - I've put a steel file in series with a compression deiver and that delivered a nasty audible change so know how to make things sound very bad. See what you're saying but was there one setting where Carver's amp could approximate the CJ/whatever over a fair range of speakers? I briefly had a Premier I on MG1 IMP in a smll room but didn't get to hear it as was stupidly chasing a brunette in another city. When the recent economic collpase was ushered in two Premier i appeared on Ebay for less than $1K. If my health was good I would have snapped one up as a nice example of chunky US made stuff. $950 won't buy that much of a Chinese tube amp.

[ka7niq]

I once read a cap test of electrolytics, and they liked Panasonic.

Black Gates too, but felt the Panasonics were almost as good ?

I like the OLD CJ sound, cause I want a tube amp to sound like a tube amp, not a bastardization between tube and sand.

I had a prototype of the Mesa Baron, actualli I diid llistening evaluations for Randy Smith of Mesa Engineering in the desighn of that amp.

The Mesa Baron looks like the ultimate tinker toy, you can change its settings, make it sound like u want.

How is that Monarchy amp, always wondered about them ?

[freddyi]

the little Monarchy is ok - not bad at all - probably not true class A - a little bit dark sounding (I'll ask its maker the Z-out) - my room flexes and Khorn sound more like bandpass boxes possibly due to the weak & resonate walls. I've sometimes run the Strategy 400 and its pretty good - wonder what Randy would suggest if anything cap-wise to re-voice it? For crappy ol' Ventures reissues on cd I like the Tec-on sound in midrange better than the solid state amps

[ka7niq]

the little Monarchy is ok - not bad at all - probably not true class A - a little bit dark sounding (I'll ask its maker the Z-out) - my room flexes and Khorn sound more like bandpass boxes possibly due to the weak & resonate walls. I've sometimes run the Strategy 400 and its pretty good - wonder what Randy would suggest if anything cap-wise to re-voice it? For crappy ol' Ventures reissues on cd I like the Tec-on sound in midrange better than the solid state amps

I had old mesa bass monoblock tube amps, Randy rebuilt them about 7 times, they were the foundATION of the mesa baron.

I liked the 6l6 tubes best, more tubey!

aint nuts about 6550's

Randy really believes in caps sounding different, meas employees musicians, tyhey plug in while randy changes caps, and listen.

Randy is a good one to talk to about different sounding caps.

Mention my name to him, Chris Tucker from Seattle, he knew me baCK when.

[ka7niq]

LOL! - imo caps may have sound differences that would show up on things like bamboo flute - I've put a steel file in series with a compression deiver and that delivered a nasty audible change so know how to make things sound very bad. See what you're saying but was there one setting where Carver's amp could approximate the CJ/whatever over a fair range of speakers? I briefly had a Premier I on MG1 IMP in a smll room but didn't get to hear it as was stupidly chasing a brunette in another city. When the recent economic collpase was ushered in two Premier i appeared on Ebay for less than $1K. If my health was good I would have snapped one up as a nice example of chunky US made stuff. $950 won't buy that much of a Chinese tube amp.

Have you got the crites diapraghms in your speakers yet Freddy ?

They are a lot smoother

[Groomlakearea51]

and that "resistor" trick is why the Selenium D250X's sound so good when swapped in instead of a K-55 on K-401 or K-701 horns. Put a 6w or 8w inline and see what happens.....

tubey.... pleasantly "smeared", because the distortion is the even order harmonics that sound "lush" or pleasant to our ears. That is a charateristic of tube designs and why the so-called distortion figures should be ignored... at least until you listen to that particular amp. That can be as high as 5% before it becomes apparent.

Ever wonder why Kathleen Turner's voice as "Jessica Rabbit" makes you want to commit crimes just to have an hour alone with Ms. Turner in a conversation.... (Tina's voice does it for me as well....)