Where can I find info on La Scala vs Jube/Scala

[DrWho]

What kind of alignment you running on your subs? Depending on how low you need the mains to go, it might make sense to build a custom straight horn for the mains instead of the lascala or Jub....I only bring it up because I believe I saw you mention that you plan to use REW. I'm a bit confused though...what exactly is your depth restriction?

[chrapladm]

Cant remember the name of the thread but the gentleman with the 510 mounted to a piece of granite was awesome looking.

[chrapladm]

I would like to use the L/R in 2 channel but I could always go 2.1 and be happy also.

I will have an AT screen which I am trying to keep the depth at 2 feet from the front wall. I had a BFM THT sub which was a 36" x 36" x 30" monster.

I have decided to make another sub which will reach the lower HZ I want but will only have a depth of 24 inches. So if I can keep the depth to 24" is the plan.

[chrapladm]

I dont know much about a custom straight horn either.

My subs will probably be crossed at 80hz so that about as low as the mains need to go but I cant say for sure until I have everything working together.

[DrWho]

I dont know much about a custom straight horn either.

My subs will probably be crossed at 80hz so that about as low as the mains need to go but I cant say for sure until I have everything working together.

Can you handle a speaker that is ~42" deep? If so, an 80Hz straight horn should be relatively straightforward. You might be able to go a bit shorter if you port it.

I know JC whipped up a few straights horns that got into the 50's or so? I forget, but the measurements are here somewhere. The risk of simulation matching reality is a bit smaller with straight bass horns since the wavelengths are huge and it sounds like you'll have some EQ available to tweak out any surprises. All that to say, I'll bet JC or myself would be willing to help you out with a few designs if you wanted to go this route.

I don't think I'd recommend anything other than the K402 for the top though...it's such a beautiful sounding horn, and you're not going to be able to come close to the same technology on your own...and especially not in wood.

[Coytee]

Face it most of us in a HT room in our house do not need a HUGE 402 too.

After having a chance to hear both the K510 and the 402 outdoors, in an anechoic type environment, I'm not sure I'd agree with that 'in an absolute sense'

(in a practical sense, sure... probably a good statement)

Maybe Who or MikeB or someone else who's done the same might chime in.

What I found when I did that experiment was the 402 was MUCH more quiet to the sides and behind the horn than the K510 was. Meaning, the 510 had less control of the sound (remember, I'm talking in absolutes, not "good enough") and to that end, the 510 allowed the sound to circle back behind the horn to the sides and behind the horn. This would allow more splatter of the sound and create more need (in an absolute sense) for room treatments than the 402 would require.

If one can forget about the raw size of the 402, I have the understanding that the 402 will fix more issues than the 510.

Knowing that you've also heard the 510, I am not saying there is anything wrong with it, just that in an absolute sense, the 402 is probably a better horn.

Sort of like a Camaro verses Corvette. Both will 'get-r-done' however, the Vette might do it slightly better but with more issues up front (cost on Vette, size on 402)

I'm glad I drive a Pinto

[au]................................

[chrapladm]

I am still liking the idea of the 402 for the top. Size doesn't really matter with the exception f maybe shipping to my destination. ANy idea on how much the 402 asembly weighs?

I dont think I would have the room for the straight horns. I am trying to keep everything around 24".I have seen some 2-4ft horns that I thought would be awesome to try but just dont have the room in my HT behind the AT screen.

I believe I saw someone had a 100hz or so horn that had great results and a high hz horn or some size above that. Looked crazy but I heard it wa awesome to hear. I think it was an old thread on another forum. I believe the gentleman who designed it was from Canada named Bill. Cant remember his last name.

I am also not sure I could built/purchase a straight horn and anything else I need for less than the price of the 402. But I am confused now again on why is the 402 so expensive if the CD is the BMD750?

Do they modify it?

The CD is fairly inexpensive compared to the combo I was going to buy. BMS/BEYMA

Is the money all in the horn?

[DrWho]

If you look closely at the measurements, the K402 has smoother HF extension than the K510...

Also, the lack of pattern control down low for the K510 means the K510 is producing more acoustic energy when EQ'd to be flat on-axis....which means the low frequency distortion of the K510 is going to be higher since the DI is lower.

(DI stands for Directivity Index and is essentially a measure of on-axis gain based on the width of the polars).

Ironically, the larger horn has better pattern control which makes it more advantageous in a smaller room where the off-axis behavior is harder to deal with and a larger portion of the total acoustic energy that arrives at the listening position...

[DrWho]

Is the money all in the horn?

Well there is definitely some money in the horn, but I think it safe to say that the majority of it is going towards the engineering that went into designing the horn. It's not like it was whipped up with a free horn calculator from the internet, and there are some pretty crazy tolerances that they're trying to hold in the mold.

The K69 or BMD750 is essentially the least expensive driver that brings out the full potential of the horn. You can certainly improve upon the driver, but the bang for the buck goes down pretty fast. Historically, Klipsch has always put their money into improving the horns so that the drivers don't have to work as hard.

At least that's my take on it. You could always ask the man that designed it all himself...you'll have to go through him to make the purchase anyway.

[chrapladm]

I was looking at the option of using one of these horns:

http://www.azurahorn.com/azurahorn_horns.html

BUT as it looks I think the 402 is a bargain. The horns from the linked company are not cheap by any means.

And this horned option would not fit behind the screen.

And this one is made here from the link above.

BUT like I said suddenly the 402 is a bargain compared to these options. PLUS the 402 will fit within 24 inches.

[Chris A]

Don't forget about these guys and this guy. Tapped horns are one way of approaching the problem to decrease the size of the finished product. And I'm told that their use of conical horn sections really sound good.

Chris

[dtel]

Easy choice IMO, 402 horn, Tapped horn sub, both are much better than anything else I have heard.

[chrapladm]

Well after checking out the links William had a nice tapped 60hz horn that would be nice with a CD but the TH only goes to about 260 I think. I know the BMS driver can go that low but is recommended to be crossed at 300hz.

Just wondering but how do low voices(baritone) sound through a "bass-midbass," tapped horn?

What is the ideal or lowest freq to cross the 402 at?

I didn't see any conical horns. WHo had them?

I feel like I am trying to make a Avantgarde clone now.[]

I wont toss out the idea of the Klipsch bass bin and 402 but after taking everyones advice and emails I am starting to wonder more about this tapped horn/ top. I have seen others with Lowthers and conical horns and wonderful results down to whatever hz. I have seen other conical and straight horn designs which were able to go down to 2-220hz and then they built a tapped horn or conical horn mountedto a 7" driver.

Many possiblities but I am thinking now that there are only 2 options that I need to learn alot more about. "Jub"Jamboree/402 and the 402/TH or other bass option. Of corse I am sure there are other options but I will stick with these for now.

[DrWho]

Yikes, don't try to mate a tapped horn to the K402, or any HF really.

I'd avoid the Lowther based approaches too.

[chrapladm]

Sorry I didn't mean to say I wanted to mix types of horns together just that I would have a bass section that would be good from 60-200hz and then have a conical horn mated to 2"CD or whatever.

Pass on the Lowthers. Alrighty.

Dont the Jubilees cost about $6000?

[Chris A]

Yikes, don't try to mate a tapped horn to the K402, or any HF really. I'd avoid the Lowther based approaches too.

I was referring to the bass bin, and I was also referring to the "Synergy horn" designs (both of which are patented designs by Danley) for the total system approach, not as a replacement for a K402 horn with P.Audio driver, etc.

Chris

[chrapladm]

Well........I think I am settled on building the Jamboree from Dana.

I am still having problems figuring out which top combo would be better though:

a402 or the BMS(4592 mid)/Beyma(CP25)

Between the options the 2 tops would cost almost the same but thats all I know.

The 402 if it costs about $1000 I would need 3 so thats $3000.

Now the BMS/BEYMA would cost about $17-1800 for just the drivers and then it woud cost about $1200 for 3 of Gregs V-Trac tops.

So I am guessing the shipping will be about the same cost so all things considered which would one to choose?

Because money is not really a matter between the 2 I can only really go by what others think and some specs I find.

I do know that the 402 is obvisouly been tested and proven so I am not worried about that one. Just curious about the other option.

I have read that some feel the only way to improve on the 402 would be to add a midrange horn to lower the bass bins upper range. BUT this is just what I have read not tested so I have no clue.

[Islander]

This may seem overly simplistic, but wouldn't those round and octagonal horns pictured work best outdoors or in a round or octagonal (in horizontal cross section, like in the International Space Station) room?

For a more typical room with a rectangular cross section (horizontally and vertically), wouldn't there be an advantage to using rectangular horns? That way, the sound bubble starts out closer to the shape of the room, implying better interaction with the air in the room and maybe lower distortion and minimal time/reflection issues. Make any sense?

[Coytee]

I thought the square/rectangle horn was how they helped to control the dispersion from bounding off the ceiling & floor prematurely?

In other words, I think we're saying the same thing?

[Islander]

In other words, I think we're saying the same thing?

Exactly. Roy knows the speakers have to interact with the room and designs the horns accordingly. At least, I think he does.

Of course, if you want speakers that look like they belong on a set for a movie about angels' trumpets or something, Avantgarde is the way to go. Maybe add some cotton-wool or nightclub smoke to complete the effect. []