Upgrading from KL-650's ??? Khorns???

[Trey Cannon]

How about a layout of your room...that may help me at lest.

I still say LS is the way to go. Big live sound, plenty of product on the use market, easy to replace drivers and xover.

I had the LS for a long time and a few different times in the past. I have THX now... Worked on the THX every time we have done anything to it...so I know that product.

As for the THX drivers, They are built to exced THX Ultra 2 standards. The HF is a 1 inch TI with a 14oz mag. It is the same (short of the arc of the dome) driver as in some of our pro gear. (KI prodcut, KPT and Heritage)

In truth, in a correct size room and the gear all set to THX U2 settings, you will need to turn the speaker levels down to about -4db to meet THX spec. At lest that is the case in our THX room. I NEVER run the sub on THX. NEVER!

Many pre-pro sub outs can not even driver the amp in to max out in THX mode. (it takes 3 volts to get there)

[sunburnwilly]

In truth, in a correct size room and the gear all set to THX U2 settings, you will need to turn the speaker levels down to about -4db to meet THX spec.

To give you an idea of LaScalas vs the THX difference . My Pioneer THX select 2 receiver when using the set up mic cuts my Belles to -10db . Always p!sses me off so I immediately bring em back up to -0db , screw you THX standards LOL . Actually I end up setting my rear surrounds to -6db while the center and mains are at 0 .Right rear surround .

[Kain]

Secondly, this speaker is TRI-amplified internally. 300 watts powering the tweeter, 700 watts powering the midrange, and 1000 watts powering the 12" woofers. This speaker can hit 130 dB.

OK, 4000 watts for just the L and R ft speakers not including center, sides or back. That's more than one 30 amp breaker can handle at full tilt, and that's just for 2 speakers. Am I missing something here, or are you going to have to rewire your living room to push these?

I'm pretty sure I've read people running these speakers without any alterations to their home's electrical "layout."

[CECAA850]

I'm pretty sure I've read people running these speakers without any alterations to their home's electrical "layout."

I'm just doing the math, you can correct me if I'm wrong (wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong[]). To hit their projected max SPLnumbers they'd be running at full gain. How do you get 4000 watts out of a 15 amp 120v circuit? You can run them without overhauling your electrical system, but your not going to get the SPL numbers you've quoted.

[garyrc]

I'm pretty sure I've read people running these speakers without any alterations to their home's electrical "layout."

I'm just doing the math, you can correct me if I'm wrong (wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong). To hit their projected max SPLnumbers they'd be running at full gain. How do you get 4000 watts out of a 15 amp 120v circuit? You can run them without overhauling your electrical system, but your not going to get the SPL numbers you've quoted.

CECAA850:

• Wouldn't the full 4,000 watts only be used for an instant (repeatedly, an instant at a time), and wouldn't the circuit be able to deliver that?
• He should have a 20 amp 120v circuit, dedicated, if possible.
• McIntosh has an amp system that delivers 2,000 wats, true RMS, per channel that costs what houses do in rural areas. They are a pretty honest company, and they claim 8,000 watt peaks which is 4X the RMS. The Dope from Hope twice puiblished a chart of SPLs v. watts in 3K cu. ft. for various Klipsch Heritage speakers which indicated that a good amp will pass very brief peaks at 10 dB over RMS, which happens (a fluke) to be approximately 10 x the RMS power, so McIntosh's 8,000 wt claim is much more conservative than that. I wrote McIntosh with questions on the house wiring issues. They said to fire up the power amps before anything else, so the caps could charge, then turn on the other stuff. They said a 20 amp circuit would be O.K. .... not that I need, or could afford, such amplifiers!

Kain:

• On another forum, I noticed that you speculated that sensitivity might not be important in a powered speaker. I assume you meant the sensitivity of the speaker itself if it were not powered, or before it was connected to the built in power amp. IMO, it would still be important. Since the speakers you are talking about appear to be direct radiators (rather than being fully horn loaded), but are described as efficient ones, their sensitivity is probably somewhere between that of a typical direct radiating speaker (90dB @ 2.83 v --1 w into 8 Ohms -- @ 1M; many reviewed in Stereophile are less sensitive) and that of a fully horn loaded speaker (e.g. a Klipschorn sealed into the revloving door corner in Klipsch'e anechoic chamber, which measures 105 dB @2.83v @ 1M). To get the SPL of a single Khorn being fed 100 watts, a single typical direct radiator as described above would need 3,200 watts. So sensitivity still matters[].

[CECAA850]

[ CECAA850:

• Wouldn't the full 4,000 watts only be used for an instant (repeatedly, an instant at a time), and wouldn't the circuit be able to deliver that?
• He should have a 20 amp 120v circuit, dedicated, if possible.

Thanks for the post Gary. If the speaker amps have enough capacitance, I guess they could briefly hit those peaks but it looks like you'd need a circuit for your sub, one for your L and R mains etc.

I'm not sure what a circuit can deliver in bursts, I was going off Ohms law, 120v, 15 amp circuit = 1800 watts. 20 amps would be 2400 watts. I did NOT factor in burst wattage (with line sag) or capacitance. When I set up my living room, I went a little over on wiring as I didn't want any any of my amps starved for juice. If I owned a set of the above referenced speakers, I'd certainly re-wire. I've always erred on the side of caution (overkill).

[dgoreck]

Secondly, this speaker is TRI-amplified internally. 300 watts powering the tweeter, 700 watts powering the midrange, and 1000 watts powering the 12" woofers. This speaker can hit 130 dB.

Where can I find this spec?

Has anyone (manufacturer or reviewers) reported distortion figures, especially ones comparing, say, these to Klipschorns, Jubs, various JBL high end or pro models?

Do you have any "raw" sensitivity figures for the speakers without the internal amps, so we could get a sense of the SPL that 1,000 wats produces when fed into the 12" woofers? "Can hit 130 dB" gives us a hint, but it doesn't say for what duration (neither do the max SPLs published for various Klipsch and JBL units, as far as I know) -- I'd rather get an idea of the program SPL which can be compared (approximately) using sensitivity and power handling figures.

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3569963&goto=nextoldest

I'm going by this from the link instead for my calculations... "A single Catalyst can produce a good
123-126dB @ 1m at any one frequency in their operating range"

So lets take the 1024Watt AMP and work back from 126dB. (1024 works better then 1000 for caclulation purposes, and at that point its 3% margin error.) Figuring that it is also harder to drive the woofers then the tweeters....hence bigger amps.

dB - Wattage
126 - 1024
123 - 512
120 - 256
117 - 128
114 - 64
111 - 32
108 - 16
105 - 8
102 - 4
99 - 2
96 - 1

I'm going by the double wattage to get 3dB more sound. So it looks like these Seatons are 96dB...

But at what distortion level?

Anyways, if you going to stick with Klispch for the KH or LS route imho. I have only really experiences the Heresys as I own them. Not much room for stuff in my "2000sq/ft" studio apt....thats living and bedroom together in one..... :-)

[tragusa3]

Wanted to wrap up my part of this conversation. I did bring home a "new to me" pair of 88' La Scalas yesterday! There are performance differences between the KL's and the LS's. Too early to make definative comments yet, but I think the change is mostly for the good. Some areas are "different", and not sure about....

I'll start a new thread in the Home Theater section with photos and comments. Thanks for all the help here.