HT not really loud enough - time to upgrade AVR?

[em.jay]

Hi guys, hoping for some advice.

I have F3 fronts, C3 center and S2 surrounds hooked up to a Denon AVR-789 (90 wpc).

For those not familiar with the Denon, the volume is labelled from -72db to +18db. I have set the maximum volume from the menu to 0 as I'm worried about it clipping and damaging the speakers.

I ran the Audyssey calibration when I got the new speakers, but don't (yet) have an SPL meter.

My problem is this - watching Iron Man on Blu-ray the other day, which has a Dolby TrueHD track, and the volume just wasn't that awesome at 0.

It sounds good, don't get me wrong, but not the sort of volume that I'd hoped for. Other sources appear to be a little better, particularly DTS-HDMA Blu -rays, and even some DTS sound-tracks on DVD.

I'm not keen to start a DD vs DTS discussion, I'm more interested in whether the Denon at 90 watts is a poor source for the F3s/C3 which are rated to 150w?

I've read plenty of posts that suggest you should have an amplifier capable of higher power than your speakers can handle, in order to provide 'headroom'.

Unfortunately I know a lot more now than I did when I bought the 789, or I would have spent a bit more and gotten something with pre-outs so I could think about a 2 or 3 channel amp for the L/C/R speakers.

But am I on the right track? Need more power?

This for me means buying a new AVR that has pre-outs, but it will have to have decent power capabilities on its own, as the new AVR will clear out my 'spendings' so the dedicated amp would have to wait. And the 789 will have next to $0 resale, I fear.

Setup is in a standard-sized living room, about 5m x 4m (or 16' x 13' if that's easier

Thanks for any and all input!

[chuckears]

em.jay,

With the high sensitivity of your Klipsch front soundstage, 90 wpc should provide plenty of power (unless you're trying to fill an auditorium, which is not the case). You REALLY need to score a SPL meter and calibrate properly - I have my own calibrated 10 dB below reference level (75 dB as opposed to the ear-splitting 85 dB), and my amps and speakers never break a sweat.

I have never clipped a Klipsch speaker - it's part of the wonder of the higher sensitivity of the horn-loaded design.

BTW, do you have a subwoofer? If you don't, it would be a better investment over a new AVR, IMHO...

[JJkizak]

The power rating on my Denon (110 watts) fell short on my 7.1 system so I had to use the old Denon 2 channel slaved to the Denon 7.1 to power the K-horns and the 7.1 Denon to power the rest of the system. I run it around 98 spl average according to the Rat Shack meter. Those receiver power ratings are suspect.

JJK

[em.jay]

Hi Chuck.

I have the sub10 - originally purchased the Denon with Quintets and this sub.

It's not lack of bass, it's that I want "knock you down and make you dizzy" volumes

Maybe I can reset the volume limit and crank it past 0, but I <i>did</i> blow 2 of the quintets!

Looks like a trip to the electronics store is in order for the weekend for an SPL, first.

And from what I've been reading, the Denon is unlikely to actually produce the 90 watts as stated, which is why I started thinking external amp...

[ClaudeJ1]

More watts won't do it. You need to move upscale with more efficient speakers. None are more efficient than Klipsch Heritage. La Scalas, Cornwalls, etc. Seve your money.

I had Khorns with a LaScala center for 30 years (since I was 23), until I went even MORE efficient and lower distortion with large format components. Now with 109 db/watt efficiency, about 4x that of Khorns, I am using about 100 Milliwatts with 1 Watt peaks on all types of music an movies. Loud is never aj problem, and distortion is non-existent.........ever.

[wuzzzer]

Audyssey has a built-in volume limiter. Try it out. Listen to some music or something with a steady beat and steady volume and raise the volume up. At some point it will stop getting louder.

I use Audyssey to measure speaker distance and to level match the speakers in my room and that's it. Its Dynamic EQ isn't to my liking. Go into your receiver's menu and see if there's a way to disable Audyssey's EQ but keep its distance and level settings.

Don't worry about damaging your speakers. Your ears will hear any distortion that could cause damage.

[ClaudeJ1]

Audyssey has a built-in volume limiter. Try it out. Listen to some music or something with a steady beat and steady volume and raise the volume up. At some point it will stop getting louder.

I use Audyssey to measure speaker distance and to level match the speakers in my room and that's it. Its Dynamic EQ isn't to my liking. Go into your receiver's menu and see if there's a way to disable Audyssey's EQ but keep its distance and level settings.

Don't worry about damaging your speakers. Your ears will hear any distortion that could cause damage.

I can't verify that what you say is true, but in the case of super efficient, all-horn systems, it would not limit anything in the milliwatt range. 85 db is the nominal level at the seating position, with peaks at 105. With 104-110 decibel efficiency of all horn systems, dropping 10 db from "source to seat" still puts you at about 100 db with a 1 watt input. Since most receivers have 20 dbWatts (100 w/ch.) of power, even if your derate by 3 decibels when all channels are driven, you still have enough power to peel your face back, make yourself bald, and strip your studs of drywall in the process.

Higher power means higher distortion, one of PWK's basic principles. If you want loud you need to get more horns. Period.

[em.jay]

More watts won't do it. You need to
move upscale with more efficient speakers. None are more efficient than
Klipsch Heritage. La Scalas, Cornwalls, etc. Seve your money.

I shouldn't be surprised that the solution, on the Klipsh forums, is to buy more Klipsch! []

Unforunatley, in Australia, the cost is prohibitive. The Klipschorns RRP is AU$23,000, which is about US$20,000

And LaScalas are AU$17,000 (US$14,000), Heresy AU$4,500 (US$3,800)

As a consequnce of these prices, there's not much of a second-hand market either

Audyssey has a built-in volume limiter. Try it out. Listen to some music or something with a steady beat and steady volume and raise the volume up. At some point it will stop getting louder.

I use Audyssey to measure speaker distance and to level match the speakers in my room and that's it. Its Dynamic EQ isn't to my liking. Go into your receiver's menu and see if there's a way to disable Audyssey's EQ but keep its distance and level settings.

I don't know about that. I know it has 'night mode' which is Dynamic Range Compression - definitely switched off.

I turn off Audyssey for music, it just sounds muddy, but, for me at least, it makes a big improvement to movies.

But I'll retest this weekend once I buy an SPL meter and I'll disable all the Audyssey. This won't affect speaker settings.

I can't verify that what you say is
true, but in the case of super efficient, all-horn systems, it would
not limit anything in the milliwatt range. 85 db is the nominal level
at the seating position, with peaks at 105. With 104-110 decibel
efficiency of all horn systems, dropping 10 db from "source to seat"
still puts you at about 100 db with a 1 watt input

Is this the way it works? I've been trying to read up on this, but wasn't really able to get my head around it.

So, when the F3s have sensitivity of 97dB, they only need 1 watt to achieve this output? So, even if the Denon is only able to provide a tenth of the 90w claimed, they should still be capable of pretty big sound.

Definitely need an SPL, then, to get some objective data.

Maybe I'm going deaf??

you still have enough power to
peel your face back, make yourself bald, and strip your studs of
drywall in the process.

Now that's what I want!

[Youthman]

So, when the F3s have sensitivity of 97dB, they only need 1 watt to achieve this output?

97db with 1 pure watt with a microphone @ 1 meter distance. You normally do not sit 1 meter from your speakers.

[em.jay]

So, when the F3s have sensitivity of 97dB, they only need 1 watt to achieve this output?

97db with 1 pure watt with a microphone @ 1 meter distance. You normally do not sit 1 meter from your speakers.

I might have to, if I can't figure out how to get better volumes!

But at least now I get the concept.

And for every +3dB you need to double the power?

And -6dB for every doubling of distance from source?

I really enjoyed reading your HT-build thread, btw, youthman!

[ClaudeJ1]

So, when the F3s have sensitivity of 97dB, they only need 1 watt to achieve this output?

97db with 1 pure watt with a microphone @ 1 meter distance. You normally do not sit 1 meter from your speakers.

Yes, of course. In my real world example, there is about a 10 db drop from the nominal pressure to the seated area, depending on the room, but in general, this is a good number. So, with 1 watt he should get 87 db at the seated position....BUT wait, if there are 2 speakers, then add 3 db which brings it up to 90 db at the seated position.......LOUD. The other 99 watts are for the 20 db of headroom.

If you look at my Avatar, you will see my 109 db stack, which means I have 12 db more efficiency and probably 17 db less distortion at the same listening level of 90 db because I will only use 0.08 watts to do the same thing, which also leaves me with 32 db of headroom (or about 1,600 times the power of the initial listening. At about 85 db normal listnening for me (THX home standard) I think I'm using about 13 milliwatts, or 0.013 watts base on voltage measurements

This is why non-horn speakers use up power so quickly and require hundreds or even thousands of watts to do the same job at MUCH higher distortion and wasted heat along with voice coil non-linearities.

Every 3 db loss in efficiency means you have to double the power each time, so that is why PWK was all about the efficiency of horns. In the days of tube amps (1920's and 1930's) they needed horns for theaters to run on the few tube watts available then. Now that we have a choice, it's still the best choice for serious musical fidelity and dynamics.

[synergyfreak]

I upgrade to the pioneer 1020 from an old hk 7.1 avr 247 and the eq, crossover, settings along with using the calibration tools helped a lot. I went from an older synergy setup which is now relocated to my other room, to the higher end rf-83's, rc-62 center and rb-61 surrounds with rs-62's as my outside 7.1 speakers. It made a huge difference, I dont know about everyone else here but when i finally got my system all calibrated, going below -30 on the receiver volums sometimes seems to loud, and a few times i have cranked to -2 and its just ear piercing to me at least.

[Buckeye_Nut]

I have F3 fronts, C3 center and S2 surrounds hooked up to a Denon AVR-789 (90 wpc).

For those not familiar with the Denon, the volume is labelled from -72db to +18db. I have set the maximum volume from the menu to 0 as I'm worried about it clipping and damaging the speakers.

I ran the Audyssey calibration when I got the new speakers, but don't (yet) have an SPL meter.

My problem is this - watching Iron Man on Blu-ray the other day, which has a Dolby TrueHD track, and the volume just wasn't that awesome at 0.

"loudness" shouldn't be an issue....... I think it has more to do with how you set your system up..... room layout and room acoustics.

[laager]

Unforunatley, in Australia, the cost is prohibitive. The Klipschorns RRP is AU$23,000, which is about US$20,000

And LaScalas are AU$17,000 (US$14,000), Heresy AU$4,500 (US$3,800)

As a consequnce of these prices, there's not much of a second-hand market either

Those prices are pretty savage. [] For the price of a pair of La Scalas you could have three jubes delivered to your door in Brisbane. (Trust me. I have the quote in my hands.)

In any event, if you're willing to spend you can have things like KHorns. Get a second hand pair stateside for $2000 - $2500K US. Even if you spend $2000 in shipping and then customs clearance you're still getting them in your grubby mitts for the price of a pair of Heresys.

[em.jay]

In any event, if you're willing to spend you can have things like KHorns. Get a second hand pair stateside for $2000 - $2500K US. Even if you spend $2000 in shipping and then customs clearance you're still getting them in your grubby mitts for the price of a pair of Heresys.

Believe me, I'm considering it! I'm thinking a pair of Cornwalls - 'one day' *sigh*

I was talking to the local Klispch sales rep about the price premium we pay here, and how with current exchange rates it's so much cheaper to buy them and bring them in yourself. She warned me about warranty issues. But really, for the price, it's worth the risk.

Anyways, I got myself an SPL today, and did some testing.

I'd say the Audyssey setup on the Denon did a good job - as did the guys in the Klipsch factory!

All 3 speakers across the front were within .5dB of 75dB when sitting between my 2 recliners with the meter at ear height.

Strangely, the 2 S2s registered a little lower, even though they're physically closer, and the Denon had both set at about +3dB above the fronts already.

I wonder if that's because the mic on the tester was facing away from them, and towards the fronts?

The sub registered only around 60dB during the test.

But I'm not worried about that - my house has a wooden floor which seems to carry the bass anyway. And it's not bass that is lacking.

I did disable the 'artifical' volume limit, and cranking above 0 definitely made a difference (actually got the volume to +9 before I lost my nerve!).

Maybe I should just be happy with what I''ve got - I remeber when I first set up the F3s I thought the sounds was awesome! (and compared to what I had, that's definitely true)

Thanks everyone who has posted thoughts and suggestions

[em.jay]

What a fun toy the sound pressure meter is! I don't mknow why I didn't get one ages ago

I've been able to answer a few questions with it - for example, I wondered how accurate the volume adjustments on the Denon actually are.

So I listened to the same piece of music (intro to Money for Nothing) over and over in +3dB increments, and the meter reported about 3dB increase in maximum sound each time (something like 2.8 or 2.9)2

Also found the answer to the question 'are the ads louder than the shows?' - not according to my little toy they're not

[synergyfreak]

The dolby volume built into my receiver actually limits it from channel to channel. The way mine is setup, lot of the newer receiver has this feature built both my hk avr 3600 has this one room and pioneer 1020 in the other room.

[ClaudeJ1]

But I'm not worried about that - my house has a wooden floor which seems to carry the bass anyway. And it's not bass that is lacking.

I did disable the 'artifical' volume limit, and cranking above 0 definitely made a difference (actually got the volume to +9 before I lost my nerve!).

Maybe I should just be happy with what I''ve got - I remeber when I first set up the F3s I thought the sounds was awesome! (and compared to what I had, that's definitely true)

Thanks everyone who has posted thoughts and suggestions

Keep in mind that Audyssey takes the relative gain of each channel and drops it down quite a bit vis-a-vis the "typical" plastic speaker with about 88 db of efficiency. My Onkyo 706 knocks down each channel by about -12 db, which is the limit because my efficiency is about 100 times more (+20 db) more than the typical speaker that would be part of the front 3 channels. So the "relative gain" numeric display on your receiver may not be giving you the same output relative to the usual insensitivity of most speakers. In other words, by being about 8x more efficient than most speakers, it's quite possible that Audyssey has set your gains for each channel to about -8 decibels, thereby forcing you to us a +8 on your overall gain to reach the true Zero DB output of your surround amplifiers. Also, keep in mind that even that is NOT the true output either (at +8 if you dare) since most receivers keep an 18 db of headroom before full output. These guys don't want fried units to come back, so they build in an awful lot of safety features. You probably need to get a Radio Shack Peak Output level meter to do fast measurements of the actual voltage at your speaker terminals. To a nomial 8 ohms of impedance, you will be surprised at how little power you are using (not ridiculously low like mine, but low nonetheless). It's what's happening at the speaker terminals that counts, not what these digital displays on the front panel are telling you..............false information..........only good in the realive sense, not the absolute like metering the speaker terminals.

Good luck.

[ClaudeJ1]

Forgot to mention that with the -12 db in each channel, on my all-big-horn setup, my overall volume display reads between -20 to -30 db during loud to moderate level listening. I can't stay in the room at -10 to 0 db settings, it's painful.

[em.jay]

OK, testing with the sound meter on the opening scene of the Iron Man Blu Ray with the Denon set to 0 gives maximum of around 90dB.

This has Dolby TrueHD

Testing with the battle scenes in District 9 with the Denon set to 0 shows maximum of around 98dB.

This has a DTSMA-HD track.

But it's impossible to know whether the maximum is different due to the track or the codec.

Either way, that's a fair bit of volume.

I guess what it comes down to is that I'm reluctant to go above 0 on the Denon, in case it damages the spaakers.

Having an external amp would allow me to go to higher volumes withour fear that the sound will clip and damage the speakers.

Or am I still failing to understand how it works?