Is front height worth bothering with? If so, which Klipsch speakers to get?

[plissken99]

So I just got the Pioneer 1120 reciever, which I'm using as a pre amp, as my 5 primary channels are hooked to the Emotiva XPA5, only the rear surrounds are driven by the Pio. And I see it does this new front height deal which I've heard little about. Is this worth messing with, or just a gimmick? It seems I can do the front height, AND keep my rear speakers in the 7.1, so effectively 9.1, which I'd thought wasn't possible.

If it's worth it, I have Klipsch RF-7 mains, RS-7 surrounds, RC-7 center, and RB-81s for the rear channels. Would I need another set of RB-81s for the job, or could the RB-61s work? I've got a friend barely using his 61s, who I could trade an old pair on Pinnacles for. Where the 81s are very expensive, $675 a pair is bargain basement.

[artto]

This looks like something relatively new. And from what I've seen in the Dolby demo, some movies, and games for sure, would probably benefit most. For music I see this as just another form of dilution (as PWK put it).

It doesn't appear that full range speakers are required for the 9.1 front "height"speakers. But as in pretty much all situations, you're probably better off sticking with speakers of the same manufacturer and type ~ same model line, as the voicing will match better. IMO the RB61 should be more than adequate for the front "height" speakers.

Please let know how this turns out ~ you're probably the first one here trying this. []

[plissken99]

Yeah the system is almost soley for movies, games and live concerts. I wouldn't have anything besides Klipsch speakers in my HT, I would think the 61s would work too. They'll damn sure be easier to mount at a downward angle than the 81s. Which I'm still trying to think up a way for btw. I'll def post on the difference they make, if any!

[garyrc]

• Yes, please do let us know how the illusion of height works out & how you like it, if you get the extra speakers. I assume that they use some kind of bass managememt, and send mainly midrange and treble to the height speakers, right? If that is true, it would be great if you could get height speakers with the same midrange and tweeters as you have in your mains(?).
• I get some sense of height in my set up as is, and so did the store I bought my Khorns from, many years ago. I could never figure out how. Who can explain it? An old audio test CD I had (Chesky?) from the middle 1980s had a test for height, and sure enough their special height images sounded from considerable above the speaker line -- almost twice as high as the tweeters -- but drooped a little on the right and left sides..

[Guest davidness]

I agree with the comment to use same brand/family of speakers as you use for the rest. The RB-61's should be fine.

I have a Yamaha RX-Z7 AV receiver that has a similar feature; front "Presence" speakers, that are supposed to be mounted high and outside of the fronts. On the Yamaha, they become active when you employ one of the DSP programs, like "Roxy Theater" and "Hall in Vienna", and are meant, I believe, to 'reframe' a stereo signal into the acoustical characteristics of these various venues, many of which have high ceilings with plenty of echo, etc.

On the Yamaha, the results are exactly what you'd expect. The stereo sound opens up, becomes less 'crisp', and comes at you from more angles. It sounds reasonably good.

On my Klipsch RF-7, RC-7, RB-75, RSW-15 setup, I added a couple of RC-35's as my front presence speakers, but am considering a swap to RS-7's. It won't make very much difference, though. The Presence speakers contribute in only a minor way to the overall sound field. Indeed, the only time I even use one of the DSP programs is when demonstrating the feature to guests. For my personal listening, I use straight stereo.

[plissken99]

The case may be different with your set up, but for front height, everything I've read says that only bookshelves should be used. Otherwise yeah, my thought would have been to use the RS-7s as well.

[RockOn4Klipsch]

I'm not familiar with the Pioneer your talking about so I'm not sure if you are talking about the new dolby PLz in terms of height speakers but from what I've read there are a few different tweaks or setup designs. So are height designs similiar to the Yamaha's presence speakers which is kind of neat. Then there's the overhead of the PLz and the extra wide setup (also similiar to theYamaha).

The overhead where they are placed on the ceiling to me seems the most interesting of the new dolby PLz scheme.

Hopefully some of the stuff will pan out and be more than just a matrix of sound processing. The sound processing dilutes the sound too much, if they become discrete channels it would be worth dealing with but then again how many speakers will our rooms and SO's handle. Eventually if things continue we'll have recievers that are nothing but 11 channels of half a$$ power to drive the 11.4 HT systems.

I really enjoy HT and when 5.1 is done right it sounds great and when 2 channel is done right it sounds as good as a great 5.1 system.

Sometimes there's so much happening in 5.1 it's difficult to appreciate what the sound engineers have actually done when the do it right and when they do it wrong, it's distracting.

[plissken99]

Well I got the front height speakers hooked up last weekend, and have watched several movies during the week. It's really hard to say what kind of difference they make, since their installation followed so closely on the heels of the new Pioneer 1120 reciever(and the Emotiva XPA5 a couple months ago). But imo, they do create a "wall of sound" effect.

I have the hardest time explaining audio upgrades, and how they sound better. The best example was the new Rambo, the action scenes were completely all inveloping with front height, rain filled the room, the gun battles were intense beyond belief. I am not even kidding in saying that my teeth hurt when the movie was over!

I do think the front height difference is small though. If your like me and have easy access to an extra pair of matching speakers, go for it, or likewise if you have disposable income. But if it means more than $300 or so for new speakers, I wouldn't bother.

[bigrig44]

I have a question about the front height...since it seems some of the 7.1 receivers give you the option of either front height or back rear surrounds...what would you guys choose? would you choose front height or would you go with the back rear surrounds? I havent heard anything with the front height setup yet but am very curious. I'd like to be able to do front height and back rear surrounds but dont have the money to put that together at this point.

[RockOn4Klipsch]

I helped my father in law setup his, he's got them all around front height, front wide and rear surrounds, to me the front wide was the most notable improvement. I will be doing this when I finally get a new pre/pro.

[bigrig44]

what are the layouts like for the heights? when you say wide...are they supposed to be set wider then your fronts?

[RyanRusty26]

I went ahead with the front height setup in my Klipsch Reference home theater and I'd thought I'd just share some information and my experience with it. There doesn't seem to be a lot of talk about it and there should be.

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Front height is the way to go. Imagine turning on 7 channel stereo and filling you entire wall with sound. Now imagine being able to hear helicopters land instead of just sounding like they are hovering on the screen. Birds will fly high and bullets reign. I can tell you first hand its something you want if you have a capable Yamaha Receiver.

--------------

The proper mounting setup for the Front Presence Speakers is 1.6'- 3.3' outside of your Front Left and Front Right Speakers with a maximum distance of 5.9' from the floor. You can go over and under these numbers without much penalty so don't worry to much about the numbers. You will still get the effect as long as they are higher than your front left and right speakers. Keep in mind that you will be pulling the sound from your entire front sound stage (Front Left, Front Right and Center) so you want it uniform, don't make the age old mistake of mixing and matching, especially if you own the unique Klipsch Speakers. I recommend buying the next smallest size for front height speakers. For example if you have RF62 Floor standing go with RB51 Bookshelf Speakers.

--------

Setup

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Once they are mounted point them at the sweet spot . Connect your calibration microphone and run that for automatic distance and leveling of your newly installed speakers.

--------

You must turn on the Front Presence Speaker by accessing the Main Yamaha Menu, go to Setup and then access Speaker Setup. Once inside this menu go to Configuration and turn them on.

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Its also very important to enter each one of your different Speaker Modes on the Yamaha Receiver and adjust them according to where the speakers are place and where you sit. These options can be accessed by going to your main Yamaha Menu, then going to Sound Program and then hover over what Mode you want to adjust and press Up. For example, I recommend changing the volume levels of each speaker in your 7 Channel Stereo Mode so they all blend perfectly with one another. Then switch between 2 Channel Stereo and 7 Channel Stereo to hear the unbelievable difference it makes.

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Don't forget to experiment with the different Cinema DSP Music and Movie modes while watching live performances on CD/DVD or Blu-ray. Some DSP modes you might like are The Bottom Line (equivalent of a small club) and The Roxy Theater (equivalent to a 500 seat venue in a rock theater.). If your fan of Opera, Classical, or Symphony then I highly recommend the various DSP modes for large concert sized venues, like Hall in Munich and Hall in Vienna. When your watching movies there is no better mode than Cinema DSP Standard Mode for movies. This mode replicates a movie theater.

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A final piece of advice is experiment with Dialogue Lift. Which takes the center channel dialog and mixes it with the front height speakers. If you have a large screen it will aise the voice and dialogue so that it feels as if its coming from the middle of the screen.

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If you get your front presence setup correctly and you take the time to fine tune it, your definitely in for a real treat. For those that are wondering, My setup consists of:

-----

RF62 II Front Left/Right

RB51 II Front Presence Left/Right

RB61 II Rear Left/Right

RC52 II Center

REL T3 Subwoofer

Yamaha 700BL AVENTAGE

Sony BDP570

Marantz CD5004

Panamax 5300

Audioquest Cabling

Panasonic 42ST30

[MikeFord]

Sorry to mess with your text, but I can't read it without some spaces.

I went ahead with the front height setup in my Klipsch Reference home theater and I'd thought I'd just share some information and my experience with it. There doesn't seem to be a lot of talk about it and there should be.
--------------
Front height is the way to go. Imagine turning on 7 channel stereo and filling you entire wall with sound. Now imagine being able to hear helicopters land instead of just sounding like they are hovering on the screen. Birds will fly high and bullets reign. I can tell you first hand its something you want if you have a capable Yamaha Receiver.
--------------

The proper mounting setup for the Front Presence Speakers is 1.6'- 3.3' outside of your Front Left and Front Right Speakers with a maximum distance of 5.9' from the floor. You can go over and under these numbers without much penalty so don't worry to much about the numbers. You will still get the effect as long as they are higher than your front left and right speakers. Keep in mind that you will be pulling the sound from your entire front sound stage (Front Left, Front Right and Center) so you want it uniform, don't make the age old mistake of mixing and matching, especially if you own the unique Klipsch Speakers. I recommend buying the next smallest size for front height speakers. For example if you have RF62 Floor standing go with RB51 Bookshelf Speakers.
--------

Setup
--------
Once they are mounted point them at the sweet spot . Connect your calibration microphone and run that for automatic distance and leveling of your newly installed speakers.
--------
You must turn on the Front Presence Speaker by accessing the Main Yamaha Menu, go to Setup and then access Speaker Setup. Once inside this menu go to Configuration and turn them on.
--------
Its also very important to enter each one of your different Speaker Modes on the Yamaha Receiver and adjust them according to where the speakers are place and where you sit. These options can be accessed by going to your main Yamaha Menu, then going to Sound Program and then hover over what Mode you want to adjust and press Up. For example, I recommend changing the volume levels of each speaker in your 7 Channel Stereo Mode so they all blend perfectly with one another. Then switch between 2 Channel Stereo and 7 Channel Stereo to hear the unbelievable difference it makes.
--------

Don't forget to experiment with the different Cinema DSP Music and Movie modes while watching live performances on CD/DVD or Blu-ray. Some DSP modes you might like are The Bottom Line (equivalent of a small club) and The Roxy Theater (equivalent to a 500 seat venue in a rock theater.). If your fan of Opera, Classical, or Symphony then I highly recommend the various DSP modes for large concert sized venues, like Hall in Munich and Hall in Vienna. When your watching movies there is no better mode than Cinema DSP Standard Mode for movies. This mode replicates a movie theater.
------

A final piece of advice is experiment with Dialogue Lift. Which takes the center channel dialog and mixes it with the front height speakers. If you have a large screen it will aise the voice and dialogue so that it feels as if its coming from the middle of the screen.
---------
If you get your front presence setup correctly and you take the time to fine tune it, your definitely in for a real treat.

For those that are wondering, My setup consists of:
-----
RF62 II Front Left/Right
RB51 II Front Presence Left/Right
RB61 II Rear Left/Right
RC52 II Center
REL T3 Subwoofer
Yamaha 700BL AVENTAGE
Sony BDP570
Marantz CD5004
Panamax 5300
Audioquest Cabling
Panasonic 42ST30

Wiki has a good reference piece. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surround_sound

I didn't have any luck searching for any source material with more than 7.1, so what do you play back, test segments or something?

[robc1976]

I have front heights and wides...wides have a much more uimpact than heights but without the heights it is missing something....have them both together is just amazing!!

Note: The fronts and wides are Rf-82II not Rf-7II...the pic makes the wides seem bigger than the fronts LOL!!

Here is mine 9.1 (Surrounds not pictured)

[pite]

I have front heights and wides...wides have a much more uimpact than heights but without the heights it is missing something....have them both together is just amazing!!

Note: The fronts and wides are Rf-82II not Rf-7II...the pic makes the wides seem bigger than the fronts LOL!!

Here is mine 9.1 (Surrounds not pictured)

Nice...Like you said, those RF-82 IIs (wides) almost look like RF-7 IIs in the pic...lol!

[pite]

So I just got the Pioneer 1120 reciever, which I'm using as a pre amp, as my 5 primary channels are hooked to the Emotiva XPA5, only the rear surrounds are driven by the Pio. And I see it does this new front height deal which I've heard little about. Is this worth messing with, or just a gimmick? It seems I can do the front height, AND keep my rear speakers in the 7.1, so effectively 9.1, which I'd thought wasn't possible.

If it's worth it, I have Klipsch RF-7 mains, RS-7 surrounds, RC-7 center, and RB-81s for the rear channels. Would I need another set of RB-81s for the job, or could the RB-61s work? I've got a friend barely using his 61s, who I could trade an old pair on Pinnacles for. Where the 81s are very expensive, $675 a pair is bargain basement.

Per 'Audysse, Wides Before Heights'

Ref: http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/audyssey-dsx

[pite]

So I just got the Pioneer 1120 reciever, which I'm using as a pre amp, as my 5 primary channels are hooked to the Emotiva XPA5, only the rear surrounds are driven by the Pio. And I see it does this new front height deal which I've heard little about. Is this worth messing with, or just a gimmick? It seems I can do the front height, AND keep my rear speakers in the 7.1, so effectively 9.1, which I'd thought wasn't possible.

If it's worth it, I have Klipsch RF-7 mains, RS-7 surrounds, RC-7 center, and RB-81s for the rear channels. Would I need another set of RB-81s for the job, or could the RB-61s work? I've got a friend barely using his 61s, who I could trade an old pair on Pinnacles for. Where the 81s are very expensive, $675 a pair is bargain basement.

Per 'Audysse, Wides Before Heights'

Ref: http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/audyssey-dsx

Realized that Pioneer has MCACC system and you might not have 'front wide' option with 1120...

[robc1976]

I have front heights and wides...wides have a much more uimpact than heights but without the heights it is missing something....have them both together is just amazing!!

Note: The fronts and wides are Rf-82II not Rf-7II...the pic makes the wides seem bigger than the fronts LOL!!

Here is mine 9.1 (Surrounds not pictured)

Nice...Like you said, those RF-82 IIs (wides) almost look like RF-7 IIs in the pic...lol!

The lens truly makes them "wides" LOL!!!

[robc1976]

So I just got the Pioneer 1120 reciever, which I'm using as a pre amp, as my 5 primary channels are hooked to the Emotiva XPA5, only the rear surrounds are driven by the Pio. And I see it does this new front height deal which I've heard little about. Is this worth messing with, or just a gimmick? It seems I can do the front height, AND keep my rear speakers in the 7.1, so effectively 9.1, which I'd thought wasn't possible.

If it's worth it, I have Klipsch RF-7 mains, RS-7 surrounds, RC-7 center, and RB-81s for the rear channels. Would I need another set of RB-81s for the job, or could the RB-61s work? I've got a friend barely using his 61s, who I could trade an old pair on Pinnacles for. Where the 81s are very expensive, $675 a pair is bargain basement.

Per 'Audysse, Wides Before Heights'

Ref: http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/audyssey-dsx

The RB-61II will be better IMHO...easier to hang put on a shelf, wont take up as much room and you can angle the 61II's easier...I had Rb-81II and went to RB-61II.

[derrickdj1]

Front Height speakers work depending on your setup. In a 7.1 or 7.2 channel receiver they are more prescence speaker and add a vertical dimension to your sound stage If you have a 9.1or 9.2 channel receiver you get even more out of the like rain drops from the ceiling in Forrest Gump or foot step from upstairs in Master and Commander Far Side of the World. I have a 7.1 receiver with a 9.1 setup. I like the Height effct and use SV 14s, four and a half feet directly above my VF 35's. Dolby recommends Height speaker directly above the front mains. Remember that there are not a lot of 7.1 moves out there. You really notice the special effect with 6.1 or 7.1 BD.