2 inch driver/horn upgrade question

[Al Klappenberger]

Should I just sit back and take this abuse?

" If he really doesn't believe in the 2" format, ask yourself what is his motivation for the 2" Trachorn?"

I answered this before! I offer a 2-inch horn to spite the fact that they are a huge investment for a small reward over a 1-inch horn because I was forced to. The very fact that I offer BOTH sizes puts me in a credible position to say which is the best investment. SOMEBODY had to horn in on the horn market to make a buck and tried to convince me it would not impact my sales because the price will be so much higher and a 2-inch horn was a different kind of thing! Notice how that turned out not to be true by his own logic. If 1-inch is good, 2-inch must be better, so it's NOT the same thing! They are BOTH horn upgrades which a customer must choose between. I bought that silly "two different things" logic and refrained form making a 2-inch horn until it was obvious people are willing to spend big bucks for the small improvement you will get not knowing the facts.

It's the American way to allow any vendor to make any product he chooses. I didn't complain when SOMEBODY started competing with me on horns, it's his right to do that, but when I did it, I cought all kinds of hell including the spiteful cancellation of an agreement to build my Universal network kit version under license! Now it's my turn to be spiteful. REMOVE ALK Engineering from your web site! You are longer a distributor of my network, BY YOUR OWN CHOICE!

Al K.

[Arkytype]

Mike,

Your "thought experiment" is merely a straw man argument used as an attempt to discredit and distort Al's remarks. A square wave pulse train is completely different than an "impulse" such as a tap dancer's toe or heel click and has nothing to do with the well-documented example he correctly quoted.

From the article (link below) one reads: The most significant deficiency, in John Hilliard's mind, was the phase discrepencies between the WE555's and the other drivers. The 12' horn paths so delayed the midrange response that monitoring tests of a tap dance routine resulted in two taps being heard for every one recorded.

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/lmco/shearer.htm

What part of this "irrelevant material" did Al misquote?

The problem with your premise is that musical content does not consist of single sine waves.

Musical content does consist of a fundamental note plus the attendant harmonics which consist of an infinite number of sine and cosine harmonics. Thanks in part to Joseph Fourier, we are able to measure and visualize musical spectra.

Lee

[DrWho]

What part of this "irrelevant material" did Al misquote?

It's irrelevant because you're not hearing two distinct sounds. You're hearing the timbre shift of one distinct sound. Reverting back to the tap dancer analogy is a total red herring and has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Along those lines, the square wave is an easy way to visualize the timbre shift that occurs.

If anyone would like to swing by my place for a demo of super steep networks with and without time-alignment I would be more than happy to let you hear it for yourself. And if you're too deaf to hear it for yourself, then I'll demonstrate identifying which is which while completely blind. It's very easy to hear and doesn't really require any kind of exotic source material or a special listening environment.

If you don't want to hear it from me, then I would highly recommend browsing some of the latest articles published by IEEE and AES on the time-domain effects of signal processing. The material is arguably graduate level engineering so I'm not too hopeful to have a very productive conversation here on this forum, but the science is already out there for those wanting to learn more.

Or if you want a watered down version, check out the "LR-8 Transient Response" section near the bottom of this technote from Rane:
http://www.rane.com/note160.html
Yes, I'm aware that Rane mentions that the ringing from a LR8 isn't very audible, but it should be noted that the phase response of the LR8 is a lot better behaved than an elliptic filter, and it gets progressively worse as you go steeper unless you start implementing phase compensated filters, but that requires a DSP to achieve (it can't be done in the analog realm). Apparently DEQX is doing it though.

To claim that these well documented artifacts are completely inaudible seems more like a justification of mediocracy if you ask me. But then I'm here to learn and strive for the best in audio reproduction....not to peddle products. If you want to say that these artifacts are small, or that they don't bother you, then that's a totally different conversation. I would also be the first to point out that there are much bigger fish to fry...

[Guest " "]

Q-what is the opinon on going with the Selenium D408Ti 2" driver

paired with one of the the selenium 2" fiberglass horns that bob crites

sells.

A-not answered yet

Q-the specs say that the driver and horns are good from 400hz up

so will this combo work with the passives that cross at 400hz ok?

A-not answered yet

Q-would

this combo best the performance of simply upgrading to the trachorn

400s?

A-not answered yet

[kwingylee]

Mike:

Check out the Yuichi Arai A-290-S with a claimed Freq range of 600Hz to 20KHz using a TAD 4001 or JBL 244x driver. The frequency response curve is incredibly flat with the TAD...and not bad with the JBL. This horn has been around since 1990. Break out the wood shop......

I have a Jub clone bottom and am exploring possibilities.......

[Bigdnfay1]

I've been using JBL2445's on Goldwood 450's and 2404's on my Jub clones in a 3-way format and have been very happy so far.

Big D

[DrWho]

On topic....

Is there a 2" driver and horn that can be used with a Jubille as a two way system that does not need as much EQ as the K69 ( or EVDH1a) with the 402 ?

Every 2" driver on the market today is going to need EQ to reach out to 20kHz'ish. The real question is, do you want the EQ in the electronics or built into the horn? And how important is the system power response to you?

Are you going to allow any "EQ" to be built into the passive network? If not, then I would say you should stick to exponential horns in your searching...

[Coytee]

On topic....

Is there a 2" driver and horn that can be used with a Jubille as a two way system that does not need as much EQ as the K69 ( or EVDH1a) with the 402 ?

Every 2" driver on the market today is going to need EQ to reach out to 20kHz'ish. The real question is, do you want the EQ in the electronics or built into the horn? And how important is the system power response to you?

Are you going to allow any "EQ" to be built into the passive network? If not, then I would say you should stick to exponential horns in your searching...

Mike (Who) are you aware that he (Whatever) already has the 402?

Mike (Whatever), I don't know the whole answer but I am under the belief that the TAD driver uses fewer PEQ's than the K69. Without listing them all and doing a quick side by side, it looks to me like there .... pause.... ok.... I'll just see if I can list them rather than talk about them (illustrating that I don't know what I'm talking about!)

I'm looking at everything that is above the crossover point

K69: TAD 4002
Type Freq, Q/Slope Level Type Freq Q/Slope Level
PEQ 3.7K 8 -4 PEQ 4.2K 2 -1
PEQ 5.6K 6 2 PEQ 16.4K 5.5 -3
PEQ 9K 20 -3 PEQ 700Hz 16 -10
PEQ 1.56K 2.8 -4 PEQ 660 HZ 1.5 3
LOSLV 5.4K 12 -12 LOSLV 5.4K 12 -10
LOSLV 2.5K 12 -2 LOSLV 2.5K 12 -1
HISLV 14.8K 12 6
PEQ 700Hz 16 -10

I don't know what they all mean and SOME of them (the 700Hz) were in the LF output channel so I'm speculating they have more to do with shutting down the woofers than anything with the K69 however, they were above the crossover point so I included them as I said I would.

I don't see the HISLV in the TAD driver. I don't know what it really does but I'm thinking it's the paramater that boosts the entire top end over 14K?? Perhaps someone more versed in the details above can give their two cents on what (if any) significance is in the numbers.

[PrestonTom]

On topic....

Is there a 2" driver and horn that can be used with a Jubille as a two way system that does not need as much EQ as the K69 ( or EVDH1a) with the 402 ?

Every 2" driver on the market today is going to need EQ to reach out to 20kHz'ish. The real question is, do you want the EQ in the electronics or built into the horn? And how important is the system power response to you?

Are you going to allow any "EQ" to be built into the passive network? If not, then I would say you should stick to exponential horns in your searching...

Mike, these guys are not differentiating between CD and non-CD horns. Since CD horns will all require the obligatory CD-boost, they will not be happy. Their view is that if a horn requires EQing, it is somehow inferior (and not simply a design consideration).

Personally, I have become a big believer in CD horns. If I still had my Klipschorns, the modification I would make is to install a K-510 horn and use an active crossover (since you can get time-alignment also). There are other choices on the horn as well, but this would keep it "Klipsch".

[kevinmi]

OK, I have to chime in with my own 2 cents, and to see how many people I can piss off. First of all, let me say that I am not an engineer, nor am I a carpenter, and I'm not selling any product. I am a tinkerer and here's my story: I was intrigued with the idea of upgrading my Khorns to a tractrix wood horn after reading so much about it here on the forums. I couldn't afford to buy one, so I made my own 1 inch throat horn and used the original K-55 driver. The improvement was amazing! Of course, I couldn't leave well enough alone, so after reading about 2 inch horns, I built a pair myself. Again, the sound improved, but the gain wasn't as drastic as the first change, and I had to buy new drivers for the 2 inch horns. My next step will be trying an active crossover system as soon as I get done building enough amplifiers and can afford the active unit itself. What I've found out through my upgrade journey is that there is definately a law of diminishing returns at work here, but it is worth it to me. I used the knowledge gained from everyone on this Forum and put it to use for my own benefit, and I post my builds so others can benefit from my experiences. Without the knowledge of of people like ALK, Greg Roberts, Gothover, and a whole host of other smarter people than me, I wouldn't have been able to do my modifications. I am thankful for all the knowledge shared on this Forum, and I wish I could afford to have the "Professionals" build my stuff for me, but it's just not in my budget right now. In conclusion, this is what I've learned pertaining to the original question of this thread: a 1 inch tractrix horn is a vast improvement, a 2 inch horn is better, but way more costlier, a good crossover is essential in getting the most out of any configuration. As a side note, I discovered that the more improvements I made to my Khorns, the more disappointed I got with my solid state equipment I was using. Now I have all tube amps, and am really happy I made the switch. The upgrade bug is snowballing out of control!

[pocket.change]

Sorry you are not pleased with the audio from your SS gear.

My meager tube system does a excellent job too (but) I'm also

(very) pleased with the SX1250s output through my KHorns.

enjoy