why modify klipsch

[djk]

Design by Stewart Hegeman, director of Citation engineering for Harman Kardon.

5304746 should have referenced thabove 50s vintage products.

"A pattern of blocks or other features is formed on the diaphragm of an
electro-acoustic transducer."

Foam blocks on the first Hegeman, the raised blocks on the second cone.

"The
diaphragm may further be covered by a conformal coating which
allows
vibratory energy propagating through the surface to exceed the
speed of
sound through air.
"

Aluminum foil on the cone of the Hegeman.

[russ69]

My inclination is to trust the professional engineers more than the basement inventors or the shade tree mechanics.

You obviously never worked in an Engineering group. Projects don't always go to the "A" team nor do they always get the "A" budget.

[sheltie dave]

Why do so many people modify a can of soup before they eat it? Some like it hot.

You never know what mods will do unless you research and test them. PWK modded speakers all his life. Some were great, some were good, and some sucked. As an owner, it is your responsibility to figure that out.

[mike stehr]

You can almost eat soup out of that whizzer cone, Dave...

[Chris A]

As an owner, it is your responsibility to figure that out.

A bit harsh, but if you are trying to maximize your investment--in terms of achievement of audio nirvana--then essentially you're right: no one else is going to be the final judge but the owner. If you don't hear any issues then clearly:

"Good enough is the enemy of better."

[]

[sheltie dave]

Hey, I'm not going to tell anyone to spend money if they are happy.

[russ69]

...but if you are trying to maximize your investment--in terms of achievement of audio nirvana...

But Honey, I NEED those new cables. I'm just trying to maximize my investment. Yeah, that will work,LOL.

[Chris A]

My inclination is to trust the professional engineers more than the basement inventors or the shade tree mechanics.

You obviously never worked in an Engineering group. Projects don't always go to the "A" team nor do they always get the "A" budget.

If those basement engineers or shade-tree mechanics have some extensive engineering of loudspeakers or other related gear, and have done good solid testing to back up their designs and manufacturing, then I'd say that they were as qualified as others who claim to be "professional loudspeaker engineers". PWK learned his trade from hobbying, electrical engineering graduate school (on the side), and geophysical exploration equipment engineering. Richard Heyser was a hobbyist, as was Siegfried Linkwitz, Bruce Edgar and many others.

The common denominator: a good education in related engineering disciplines is a prerequisite for investing in someone else's loudspeaker designs. Even then, however, I'd be selective.

Chris

Edit (2 Jan 2011): The last sentence was meant to say:

"The common denominator in this discussion: if you are considering upgrading your speakers with someone else's home-brew add-ons or replacement gear, then I'd certainly look at the person that did that home brew carefully, and consider what you've got based on their background and abilities to understand the physics/engineering, and their ability to test their home brew add-ons or replacement gear for more than 'it sounds better', or even more egregiously--'it looks better'."

[Sandy West]

Chris,

Sure, I'd agree with you if the qualifications you mention are in place. Someone with the education, experience and requisite test equipment is essentially a qualified engineer. These are not the people to whom I was referring when I wrote "basement inventors and shade tree mechanics" and I suspect that qenuinely qualified speaker modifiers are quite rare in the general population of Klipsch (or any other brand) loudspeaker owners.

[ClaudeJ1]

I wounder why one of the best speaker manufacturers would not make a speaker as good as it could be.

Engineering labor cost and budget constraints. The hobbyist can put unlimited time and money into the changes, the factory designer cannot.

Exactly right. The manufacturer could make the "ultimate" speaker, but its high price would mean they'd sell very few units, so the company would not see economies of scale, so the price would have to stay high. It's a risky business model.

Many companies do make very high quality speakers, but it's the less expensive models that keep the company in business and help pay for the R&D for the top-end models. Ideally, what's learned in the process trickles down to the bread-and-butter models, which benefits everyone.

Also, with the Jubilee and JubScala being designed to be bi-amped and requiring the buyer to supply an electronic (or sometimes passive) crossover, they get into a level of expense and complexity that does not appeal to the majority of buyers.

It's great that Klipsch does help out the more dedicated enthusiasts who are willing to put up with non-plug-and-play setups in order to get even better sound than with stock Klipsch speakers.

Long before PWK sold the company to his cousin, a very good businessman, the HERESY is what saved it from the brink, which made 50% of the company gross sales. They also got into the PA market to compete with JBL...........ah the 70's...............

[ClaudeJ1]

My inclination is to trust the professional engineers more than the basement inventors or the shade tree mechanics.

You obviously never worked in an Engineering group. Projects don't always go to the "A" team nor do they always get the "A" budget.

If those basement engineers or shade-tree mechanics have some extensive engineering of loudspeakers or other related gear, and have done good solid testing to back up their designs and manufacturing, then I'd say that they were as qualified as others who claim to be "professional loudspeaker engineers". PWK learned his trade from hobbying, electrical engineering graduate school (on the side), and geophysical exploration equipment engineering. Richard Heyser was a hobbyist, as was Siegfried Linkwitz, Bruce Edgar and many others.

The common denominator: a good education in related engineering disciplines is a prerequisite for investing in someone else's loudspeaker designs. Even then, however, I'd be selective.

Chris

As a counterpoint. Digital design and analysis tools are available to everyone at a reasonable price. Thiele Small parameters are an industry standard for drivers. There are many good horns, new and used, available at a reasonable price, and lumber is $50/4x8 foot sheet. The internet is full of forums and PDF documents. So yes, someone with enough engineering aptitude with or without a college degree can design and build speakers. There are more of us than you think.

[Zen Traveler]

I think your basic question is a valid one. Any product can potentially be improved, but I wonder how many users have the technical expertise to change (in a positive way) a highly researched and developed product like modern Klipsch loudspeakers. My inclination is to trust the professional engineers more than the basement inventors or the shade tree mechanics.

I was with you right up until I saw Mr Cannon recently confirm that Dean's crossover cleans up a flaw in the old RF-7s....Of course Trey then went on to say not everyone hears that flaw so I am befuddled, but still enjoying my "stock" RF-7s going on the 9th year. [Y] [H]

[sheltie dave]

If Klipsch builds speakers that cannot be improved, then they really only need to build a single model. It will be the best, and shall not be modified in any way.

[chambers1517]

Think about this, If you were in the market for a set of Heresy's (which I am) and there was a stock set and a set that had been modded, which would you buy. I'll take a stock set and not even consider a set that has been messed with. At least with a stock set you know what you're getting.

[djk]

If I was looking at a used car and it had been modified with new tires and shocks, I would buy it in a heartbeat over an old stock model.

Likewise, If I had the choice between a stock Klipsch speaker, and one with an ALK network and a BEC driver, I would go for the modified one.

"At least with a stock set you know what you're getting."

Some leaky oil caps and a nasty sounding K77?

About 30 years ago I asked PWK why he didn't use something like the JBL 077 instead of the K77. His answer was EV sold him the K77 for about $12, and asked me what my dealer cost was on the 077?

In my opinion:

Bose speakers aren't bad, but they may be a bad value for the money.

Klipsch speakers aren't great, but they may be a great value for the money.

[chambers1517]

I bought a boat a couple of years ago that I still have. When I was looking there were several for sale with a (new engine). That brings up way more questions than all original does. To me I'll take a nice boat or car with the original engine any day over one with a (new engine).

[JBryan]

I agree that PWK and crew made their products to a price point and I think that's true for all but the most elite builders/manufacturers. I always thought of the Khorn as a great design but quickly learned that the implementation had limitations and could be readily improved upon. While I bet some user modifications have the folks at Klipsch scratching their heads or even rolling on the floor at times, I'm sure they appreciate that some tweaks can certainly improve the sound. IIRC, the Jubilee was originally designed to address some of the Khorn's short-comings and was actually considered as a Khorn replacement by Paul & Co. until the marketing department nixed the idea.

I have come to prefer 2-way designs (actually a full-ranger would be ideal but I haven't come across one with enough range and 'thump' to do the trick) and I've always considered PWK's folded bass bin one of the best (and affordable) ways to get full, tight and authoritative bottom end. Where I found the Khorn lacking for my purposes was the tweeter which was a bit shrill and emphasized the forwardness in the Khorn's sound. Also, the integration between the mid-horn and woofer which crosses at 400Hz pushes the woofer beyond its comfort zone introducing distortion above 200Hz and muddying things up a bit.

While the Klipschorn sounds good right out of the box..er, crate, I changed a few things to address my needs and did them to my price point. The speakers measure better in my room and sound right to me but there are plenty of other modifications mentioned on this forum that will sound good to others willing to give them a try. As well, I'm sure that more mods will come and with the right budget, the Khorn can be improved beyond what any of us have heard. Why we're even discussing modifications is a tribute to PWK's ingenuity. While many speakers are more easily replaced than modded, Paul's original folded-horn has been around for over 60 years and can still hold its own against the latest designs and its so easy to approach, the better question might be..."Why not modify?'.

[jacksonbart]

imperfect marketing

[ClaudeJ1]

I have been building or modding speakers since I was 12 years old. My Detroit News paper route station was 2 blocks from a Klipsch dealer. After hearing Khorns there, at 14, it became my goal to own them someday. It took many iterations of speakers for me to get Khorns and a center LaScala at 23 years old.....even got a bank loan for them to establish credit. I lived with that setup for over 30 years......no mods. I got the bug when I joined this forum. After hearing Jubilees and the commercial line of products in hope, I was hooke on the "bigger is better" concept. One look at my avatar confirms my disease, which, is a very mild case compared to others on this board and elsewhere on the Web.

[sheltie dave]

Some people go to a deli every day and get their sandwich on white bread. Others get white bread, but if their mom is working, she'll trim the edges off. The hippies will get seven grain bread. Russians will clamor for rye.

Enjoy your stock Heresys when you get them.