SWL Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Room is 18x15x8' ceilings. Had the speakers on the short wall. No magic whatsoever. Reconfigured the room with the speakers on the long wall. Took measurments to achieve an equilateral triangle (equal distance from speaker to speaker to sweet spot). Nothing.....just two speakers jamming away. Checked all connections. Tried putting the speakers in-out of phase, toed-in, toed- out, forward backward, made them wider then narrower then wide again, in corners, out of corners. This is very frustrating. Cannot get them to image even a little bit. Nothing. Nada. This is for a friend of mine. He is passive bi-amping the Chorus ll's with a Mac 2500 on the woofers and an HH Scott 299 on the horns. A Jolida JD100 tube cd player. Any suggestions on why these fine speakers are not imaging? We're stumped here. Thanks, -Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Have you tried them with a single amp and not bi-amping? Just a thought... Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Do you notice the typical out-of-phase diffused sound in any frequency band? Presumably the mids/highs rely on the passive crossover, which means it must have been modded to accomodate bi-ampimg, so double check that none of the individual drivers, particularly the mids, are wired out of phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 Have you tried them with a single amp and not bi-amping? Just a thought... Bruce Thanks for the reminder! We will try this next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 Do you notice the typical out-of-phase diffused sound in any frequency band? Presumably the mids/highs rely on the passive crossover, which means it must have been modded to accomodate bi-ampimg, so double check that none of the individual drivers, particularly the mids, are wired out of phase. Didn't notice any out of phase diffused sound. We did wire them out of phase intentionally to test them. No luck.These speakers were modded to accomodate for the passive bi-amping. I'm very suspect of this. I think we'll have to possibly dig into the speaker and investigate further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Are you saying you are playing the CDP directly into the 2500 for the woofers (no preamp), and using an integrated amp (with preamp) for the High end? That sounds a little goofy. I would eliminate the Mac altogether and use only the Scott 299 to simplify the situation until the problem is solved. This weird combination may be the problem, although I also suspect miswiring in the networks. The Scotts are known to throw a very good stereo image. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 Are you saying you are playing the CDP directly into the 2500 for the woofers (no preamp), and using an integrated amp (with preamp) for the High end? To clarify: Preamp: Marantz Model 3600 HF's : HH Scott 299 integrated tube amp (20 watts) LF's: Mac 2500 (500 watts) Mark, The integrated amp on the HF's sounds goofy....I know. [] The solid state preamp may sound goofy as well....I know. [] But I have have practically the same setup with my KLF-30's and it's imaging/soundstaging is incredible. The best sounding system I've had to date. After my friend, the Chorus ll owner heard it, he went in the same direction. Speakers disappear, instruments in the air, the ability to visualize where every band member is on stage.....all that good stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 The Scotts are known to throw a very good stereo image. No doubt about it. [Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 These speakers were modded to accomodate for the passive bi-amping. I'm very suspect of this. I think we'll have to possibly dig into the speaker and investigate further. Scott, I did the mod myself. I had a copy of the Chorus II crossover schematic to do the mod. The only thing I didn't check was the replacement caps that the previous owner had replaced, he did a sloppy job and had used hot melt glue on the leads to ack as wire insulation. I was going to remove it and use "electrical spaghetti" but couldn't easily remove the hot melt glue. I could have used my heat gun but since Mike came over after work he wanted to take his modded crossovers home with him that evening so I left the caps as is. Since all I had were the crossovers, I suggest checking that the wiring from the crossovers to the drivers are in phase, don't go by the stripe on the wire since they may be out of phase at the connection to the drivers. Verify that both speakers are identical. You might want to try the test tone CD to see if there are certain frequencies that are a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 I suggest checking that the wiring from the crossovers to the drivers are in phase, don't go by the stripe on the wire since they may be out of phase at the connection to the drivers. Verify that both speakers are identical.Exactly. The day after he brought them home the wires on one of the tweeters were crossed. We corrected it but but I think we need to dig deeper into it and make sure everything else is correct in that crossover. We may very well need your expertise in checking out the x-over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Did you run the balance control over to one side and verify that everything was hooked up properly? A friend of mine had left bass and right treble coming out of one speaker, right bass and left treble out of the other. Sounds OK, but no image. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 Did you run the balance control over to one side and verify that everything was hooked up properly?Yes, we checked the balance on both amps including speaker wires and interconnects. At one point we realized the interconnects were flip-flopped on the cd player but that didn't fix anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Scott, As we discussed over the phone the Chorus II schematic shows the tweeter wired out of phase. Make sure Mike has identified the + correctly for each driver. When Mike gets a chance to check you the wiring, give me a call, if I'm available I can shoot up to give a hand. Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davis419b Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Hey Scott, I know this is going to sound stupid but it happened to me awhile back. I replaced my old couch with a new set of H/T leather recliners and lost all that I had accomplished so far. The fantastic sound that I finally had was gone ! Needless to say I got rid of the H/T seating and put my old couch back in and WHAMO the sound was back. My suggestion would be to take the Chorus II,s to your house and put them into your proven system in place of your KLF-30,s and see what it sounds like. To me it is a full-proof test but hey I dont know alot about this stuff . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 My suggestion would be to take the Chorus II,s to your house and put them into your proven system in place of your KLF-30,s and see what it sounds like. Hi Don, Good suggestion. If we don't get anywhere with the x-overs....I have 2 pairs of KLF-30's so I was planning taking my second pair over there for a comparison. If nothing else, it will be the great "KLF-30 vs. Chorus ll" shootout. Should be fun. At this point I'm leaning towards a mix up inside one of those Chorus ll cabinets......hopefully that's all it is. [:^)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 The network board for the Chorus II was a real pain for DEANG to work on for me. Very time consuming to replace the caps correctly. I have never been a fan of bi amping outside of industrial PA systems. Just the thought of the cohesivenes hurdles keeps me buying better amps and sources than bi amping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 12, 2011 Author Share Posted April 12, 2011 Yesterday we took another crack at it. First thing we did was hang some thick moving blankets behind the listening position covering the window. After doing this we finally got some action going on between the speakers. A minor amount of imaging but we finally had something. [Y] Then we went inside the cabinets and checked the wiring with the schematics. Everything was correct. Next, we smacked each other because we discovered the balance was off. Flip-flopped the wires and gained a little more imaging. [Y] Added some ATS acoustic panels (24"x24"x2") at the reflection point behind the horns. At this point we're getting significant imaging and soundstage. It's not real "vivid" but we're getting somewhere. Thursday, I'm gonna drag some of my acoustic treatment over there so we can apply it to the early reflection points as well as a couple of bass traps. Should be interesting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 14, 2011 Author Share Posted April 14, 2011 Well, tonight we treated the early and secondary reflection points including right behind the horns. While it brought clarity and smoothed out the bass that was somewhat boomy prior.....we gained nothing in imaging or soundstage. We also tried running the speakers from the Scott 299 alone (not bi-amped). Still no improvement in imaging. It was a sweet reminder of how well passive bi-amping works when you put tubes on the horns and a powerful ss amp on the woofers. Can you say headroom? Next, we're gonna bring the Chorus ll's over to my house and put them in place of my KLF-30's where the imaging and soundstaging is kicking some butt in a treated room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Since I was present for some of the testing my obersations are that the Chorus speakers are leaking past the speaker gaskets. I did the push test on the woofer, the passive moved out then right back in. In a sealed cabinet the passive should stay out for a few seconds before moving back in. I also noticed that the speaker cabinets had alot of vibration (compared to my Forte's) when the volume was turned up. This may be due to the problem of having a 500WPC McIntosh amp powering the woofers or maybe there should be more internal bracing. This is my first time to listen the tractrix horn drivers. I thought that without treatment on the walls, the sound was large and disperssed but had an echo. I could localize the vocals but not to the point of having the speakers disappear. I feel that with the tractrix horn the sound midrange is covering a very wide angle that makes it difficult for the speakers to disappear. I would try your KLF30's (or my Forte's) in Mikes house to see if it's his room or the speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted April 15, 2011 Author Share Posted April 15, 2011 This may be due to the problem of having a 500WPC McIntosh amp powering the woofers or maybe there should be more internal bracing.500 watts from the Mac isn't the problem. Was there any internal bracing? I don't recall seeing any but didn't look real hard. The risers are loose.....possibly contributing to cabinet noise.We're gonna try the Chorus ll's in a tried/true room. Then we're gonna haul the 30's over to Mike's. Your Fortes are invited to join the party. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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