Alternate to Rc-7?

[JasonJCarney]

The centers are designed as a compromise for picky wives wives and furniture restrictions. 3 of the same speakers across the front always trumps a timbre/series matched center - it's just rarely practical.

To be clear that state is personal opinion. I couldn't disagree more.

[Brunt]

The centers are designed as a compromise for picky wives wives and furniture restrictions. 3 of the same speakers across the front always trumps a timbre/series matched center - it's just rarely practical.

To be clear that state is personal opinion. I couldn't disagree more.

Wow... Direct hit. I like it here.

[Rich_Guy]

Several years ago, when I first got into Klipsch, I picked up an RC-7 for $150 that was in great condition. Lady had a "Divorce Sale" on her craigslist ad. She was doing it just to spite her husband (soon to be ex) but as mentioned, those deals are very few and far between. Typical is $350 - $450 for an RC-7.

Now that is low, I wouldn't have even sold my RC-3 for that.

I knew I was paying about $100 above the average when I bought mine but I was happy to do it since it was completely like new (and still is) and it did not need to be shipped. Since it did not need to be shipped I did not need to pay for shipping, but even more so I was happy to not need to worry about shipping damage which seems to occur far too often with these speakers.

[cornfedksboy]

The centers are designed as a compromise for picky wives wives and furniture restrictions. 3 of the same speakers across the front always trumps a timbre/series matched center - it's just rarely practical.

To be clear that state is personal opinion. I couldn't disagree more.

For timbre matching, three of the same ARE ALWAYS BETTER. Same size box and same components will sound more similar/seemless than a center that is engineered to sound the same using different configurations/specification. For overall sound, different speakers will interact differently together in different rooms. Often times a non-matched system can sound very, very good under the right conditions.

[JasonJCarney]

The centers are designed as a compromise for picky wives wives and furniture restrictions. 3 of the same speakers across the front always trumps a timbre/series matched center - it's just rarely practical.

To be clear that state is personal opinion. I couldn't disagree more.

For timbre matching, three of the same ARE ALWAYS BETTER. Same size box and same components will sound more similar/seemless than a center that is engineered to sound the same using different configurations/specification. For overall sound, different speakers will interact differently together in different rooms. Often times a non-matched system can sound very, very good under the right conditions.

[cornfedksboy]

Here's some good links on the subject of the advantages of a vertical array speaker:

Interference (wave propagation) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://theaudiocritic.com/plog/index...Id=28&blogId=1
Interference
Seymour AV | Center Stage screens
Comcast
Vertical vs Horizontal Center Speaker Designs — Reviews and News from Audioholics
Live Sound International | Tech Topic: Practical Realities of Phase Interference
Can Line Arrays Form Cylindrical Waves? A Line Array Theory Q & A
http://www.mccormicksnet.com/techgui...usic_sound.pdf
http://www.shure.com/stellent/groups...c_sound_ea.pdf
Sound & Communications - Audio
Planar theory
Acoustics and Vibration Animations
Interference (wave propagation) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
HeadWize - Technical Paper: The Elements of Musical Perception by HeadWize
Mono Compatibility and Phase Cancellation - Tutorials
Speaker Articles (Alphabetical Sort) - eCoustics.com

Here's a good description from the AVS forum:

"Center-channel speakers, although designed to serve that function, are, in reality, an accommodation for people that need a horizontally-oriented speaker to "fit" in their center location. Most people can't place a vertically-oriented tower or even a bookshelf in the center; hence the need for "center-channel speakers".

But a vertically-oriented speaker actually disperses sound horizontally, into the room, much better than a horizontally-oriented speaker, which disperses sound vertically, toward the floor and ceiling, providing a very narrow "sweet spot" and producing unwanted reflections off the floor and ceiling. That's why most "normal" stereo speaker pairs are, and have always been, vertically-oriented; they disperse sound best, horizontally, the way you'd prefer them to. You also want your center speaker to disperse sound best, horizontally, with a wide "sweet spot", so that everyone in the room can hear it equally well.

Additionally, horizontal MTM speakers (midwoofer-tweeter-midwoofer; the design that the majority of horizontal center channel speakers exhibit) suffer from something called "lobing", which is, basically, an interference phenomenon caused by adjacent placement of two identical drivers that are producing acoustically identical output. The result of lobing, with respect to the horizontal mid-woofer to mid-woofer arrangement and distance encountered in most MTM center channel speakers, is a dip in horizontal, off-axis midrange frequency response. Since most dialogue relies heavily upon the midrange frequencies for the reproduction of human voices, a midrange dip is exactly what you do NOT want from your center-channel speaker.

There ARE many designs that attempt to alleviate the problems associated with horizontal center channel speakers; both the dispersion issue and the lobing issue.

Horizontal MTMs are usually designed with a lower crossover point between the midwoofers and the tweeter, so that the single tweeter produces some of the midrange content that would normally have been cancelled due to lobing.

Sometimes, an offset tweeter design is used which allows for closer spacing of the 2 midwoofers, which helps reduce the lobing effect.

Another common method utilized in horizontal center speakers to reduce lobing is to simply add a midrange driver, arranged vertically with a tweeter, both located between the two midwoofers (the so-called WTMW design), which, for the most part, at least sidesteps the lobing issue altogether.

There are also some asymmetric 2.5-way crossover designs where both midwoofers operate at the lowest frequencies, but only one midwoofer operates through the critical midrange frequencies where lobing can occur.

One design which lends itself very well to center channel speakers, is the 'coincidental array' design (such as that used by KEF and Tannoy, among others) where the tweeter is located in the acoustic center of a single midwoofer. This design, with only a single midwoofer, completely eliminates the lobing issue.

But none of these designs can completely eliminate the vertical dispersion issue that is simply inherent to almost all horizontally-oriented speakers.

So, the horizontal center-channel speaker, no matter the design, is not ideal. It is a compromise. Many people incorrectly assume that the best choice for their center channel speaker must be the speaker that the manufacturer of their speakers markets specifically as a "center channel speaker". But the BEST center channel speaker would actually be a single, vertically-oriented tower, bookshelf, or LCR (vertical MTM) that identically matches your front left and right speakers."

[cornfedksboy]

Jason, I enjoy your often differing opionion on this forum. Here is a link from someone that disagrees with you. At the bottom are about 2 dozen additional articles that also share the opinion of thadeussmith and myself.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/speakers/89614-horizontal-center-channel-speakers-why-they-should-avoided.html

[CHASLS2]

I sure love my RC7. Still wanna try a RC64ll just fir kicks.

[JasonJCarney]

I've made numerous posts about "timbre" and it always ends up with "to each his own". I believe Klipsch made the rc64 different from the rf7's for a reason. (not just size) if you don't agree... Than "to each his own" lol

[Brunt]

How about the logistics? How many people have a theater area that will handle, oh I don't know, 3 RF-7's? Not only would most have to flip the center tower on it's side, but then you'd have to center the tweeter with the main listening position, which sort of defeats the purpose of 3 identical speakers according to that link. I fear it may look slightly on the retarded side. I have a decent sized room, and I wouldn't be able to handle the physical dimensions of the "3 identical front speakers" option. Obviously my point doesn't tackle sound, but aesthetics count for something too.

[cornfedksboy]

I've made numerous posts about "timbre" and it always ends up with "to each his own". I believe Klipsch made the rc64 different from the rf7's for a reason. (not just size) if you don't agree... Than "to each his own" lol

I think it always ends that way because you have a consistently differing opinion, and when faced with a multitude of industry experts that disagree with you, you continue to hold strong to what your ears tell you, and I think that's great. I certainly wouldn't want to tell you that what you heard in an A/B setting was wrong. The only reason that I do publicly disagree with you is because many people will read this discussion and think that it might be a 50/50 split, whereas in reality your opinion on this is very much a minority view.

And yes, to each his own!

[JasonJCarney]

Your industry experts do not include the Klipsch engineers..... Or did I miss the part when klipsch stop selling center specific speakers?

[JasonJCarney]

Cornfed... If we r talking about timbre matching making a difference then it's personal opinion. If your talking about a 3rd floorstander being a better option at center than a center specific speaker then your flat out incorrect. Just wanna verify what we disagree on.

[cornfedksboy]

Klipsch makes very good center channels! The RC-64 is one of the finest around. Also check out the Klipsch THX Ultra II center channel and the ProCinema center channels. Both are phenomenal!

[cornfedksboy]

Cornfed... If we r talking about timbre matching making a difference then it's personal opinion. If your talking about a 3rd floorstander being a better option at center than a center specific speaker then your flat out incorrect. Just wanna verify what we disagree on.

We disagree on both.

[JasonJCarney]

Lol.... Good tip. Thank you

[JasonJCarney]

Cornfed... If we r talking about timbre matching making a difference then it's personal opinion. If your talking about a 3rd floorstander being a better option at center than a center specific speaker then your flat out incorrect. Just wanna verify what we disagree on.

We disagree on both.

Can you explain why klipsch makes a separate center channel for HT?

[wuzzzer]

Cornfed... If we r talking about timbre matching making a difference then it's personal opinion. If your talking about a 3rd floorstander being a better option at center than a center specific speaker then your flat out incorrect. Just wanna verify what we disagree on.

We disagree on both.

Can you explain why klipsch makes a separate center channel for HT?

Most people can't fit a 'normal' speaker as a center speaker. Space limitations, size of TV stand, size of TV, etc. are all factors in this. As a compromise, speaker manufacturers made a speaker that can lay flat and is easier to find a place to install than a floorstanding or even a bookshelf speaker.

If a person truly wants the most seamless front soundstage they can possibly have, using 3 exactly identical speakers is the way to do it. Each speaker will sit at exactly the same height, have exactly the same sensitivity, have exactly the same drivers, exactly the same cabinet size, exactly the same xxHz to xxkHz frequency range, and disperse sound exactly the same into the room.

[cornfedksboy]

The center placement of a tower speaker is awkward for the placement of a television, hence the development of the vertical speaker which can easily be placed under a television or on the TV stand/shelf. It is not easy to produce a good center (the most important speaker in an HT), and much development goes into making these sound good. The RC-64 and 64 II, for instance are 2.5 way speakers, whereas the Reference towers are 2 way. This is done to better distinguish dialogue. Also, I believe I read that the square tractix horn orientation is changed in order to accomplish a wider array of dispersion, open the sweet spot, and decrease coning. All of this extra engineering makes the RC-64 (and other Klipsch center channels) ideally suited for dialogue heavy use, as you elluded to above (paticular output of the center), thus you have a center that is nearly as good as the associated towers for this one function. For all of these reasons, I would recommend that one would use a true center channel rather than a tower for most applications.

On the other hand, if I were to build a 3000 cubic foot HT with an accoustically perforated screen, I would put three loudspeakers behind it as the soundstage becomes truely seemless and life like at that point. All directivity caused by two different types of speakers alligned in a different fashion is gone, and of course you have a near perfect timbre match.

[JasonJCarney]

Cornfed... If we r talking about timbre matching making a difference then it's personal opinion. If your talking about a 3rd floorstander being a better option at center than a center specific speaker then your flat out incorrect. Just wanna verify what we disagree on.

We disagree on both.

Can you explain why klipsch makes a separate center channel for HT?

Most people can't fit a 'normal' speaker as a center speaker. Space limitations, size of TV stand, size of TV, etc. are all factors in this. As a compromise, speaker manufacturers made a speaker that can lay flat and is easier to find a place to install than a floorstanding or even a bookshelf speaker.

If a person truly wants the most seamless front soundstage they can possibly have, using 3 exactly identical speakers is the way to do it. Each speaker will sit at exactly the same height, have exactly the same sensitivity, have exactly the same drivers, exactly the same cabinet size, exactly the same xxHz to xxkHz frequency range, and disperse sound exactly the same into the room.

True on all accounts. One problem though... Your center channel is playing a different signal than your right and left channels. In all channel stereo then sure. But not for home theatre.