Klipschorns Bleeding My Ears.

[2BRNot2B]

Hi, I'm new to the whole Klipschorn thing. Been a bang-for-the-buck audiophile for 20+ years.

I just got a pair of excellent condition 1993 walnut K-horns with AK-3 crossovers. Speakers/horn are stock. The midrange is bleeding my ears and imaging isn't the best. Any suggestions to mellow it out and improve imaging? I understand there is an inherent Klipschorn sound....but this midrange is too radical. Would any of the usual upgrades help (Crites, ALK, Volti, etc)? Who? What?

Room is large open basement with concrete corners and floor. Ceiling 8 feet high with wood rafters. I have placed multiple rugs and wall coverings on floors and walls to warm it up. The K-horns are driven with a 26 watt Decware tube amp. I listen at low-medium to medium levels.

Thanks for your help,

Rob

[Marvel]

Rob, welcome to the forums!

I assume you have the khorns tucked tight into the corners, so that the bass is working well.

You can adjust the mid output by changing sthe wiring on the crossovers (using a different tap on the autoformer). I had to bring the midrange down a couple of db on my La Scalas, to get a better balance.

Bruce

[sebrof]

I agree with Marvel that the first thing to make sure of is that they are tight to the corners else they do sound bright and tipped up, light bass. Pipe insulation tweak and other tweaks might help for that (do a search).

I replaced the crossovers on mine and it helped, but they were '65s with the original crossovers. I'm not sure how much you can expect by updating 1990s speakers because the crossovers are probably OK. I got Crites crossovers that were switchable from A-typ to AA-type and it did make a difference. I preferred them on AA.

I would guess your Decware amp is a very good match, and it sounds like you are at least trying to work with the room. It sounds like you are concentrating on taming Hi Freq (rugs, etc.), but the problem very well could be that the bass is cancelling and is therefore reduced. IOW - Get some bulk in there to soak up the excess bass that is (may be) cancelling the bass output.

Having said all that - I owned Klipschorns for about 1.5 years and never could get them to sound the way I wanted (driven by a 100-watt EL34 PP, a 4-watt 2A3 SET, or a 150 watt SS receiver) although I tried very hard because they did a lot right. I reluctantly sold them to another member here. They were a little bright for my tastes, but a far cry from "Bleeding my ears." Did you hear them at the seller's house?

[LarryC]

Where are you located?

[pzannucci]

Solid floors, solid walls, carpet, and locked tight into the corners (not a tiny room btw) and you should have more than adequate bass. Sometimes even too much. Considering the impedance swings significantly, especially in the midrange, they may not be the best match for the amp.

An amp that's frequency response swings with the impedance of the speaker would not be a good match unless you like where the sound is tilted up.

[pzannucci]

Oh forgot to mention, khorns don't produce punchy bass unless you are fairly far away from them in a larger room. Being too close will yield little bass with no punch. This is typical with many horns, especially larger ones.

[2BRNot2B]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I'm in the northern suburbs in the Detroit area. I listened briefly at the sellers home. They did sound a little bright but not as much as my current room. I purchased them because the price was a no-brainer and the condition is excellent. Even had the original boxes. Even though I'm not 100% happy, I'm not giving up on them.

The K-horn's are in the poured concrete corners of a 22' long rectangular niche area within the basement. The basement (a true man-cave) is not finished but has superficial treatments...wall coverings, rugs, carpets, LP racks, and a thin vinyl covering between the concrete walls and speaker. Actually the entire rectangular niche is covered with a huge vinyl freeway advertising sign that I cut to fit the area (poor man's wall paper). The corner fit is fair and definately not tight. There is a slight recessed area at the point where the walls meet. I stuck some egg-crate sound proofing foam in the corners and pushed the speaker right into them. I can run my fingers between the speakers and wall at certain points. I'm listening about 10-12 feet away.

Maybe I have to rethink the room and corner fit? Sounds like the most obvious choice is to improve the corner fit.

I'll try to improve the corner seals.......

[sebrof]

I had a door molding in one of my corners so I got a 2' x 4' sheet of 3/4" MDF and put it in the corner. That way the corner wasn't perfect but it was at least flat to the speaker. You might want to try that, as well as the pipe insulation thing I mentioned earlier. It helps.

[dtel]

This is typical with many horns, especially larger ones.

Not all folded horn designs. []

[crd97086]

Straight up....this is your midrange/tweeter hitting you like a huricane. Mid bass and certainly not low bass dont burn your hair like a hot day in Hope Arkansas in August as you are describing. True enough? Improper horns are bad enough, but, pardon my french....when one is not using a very good level of compression driver, one is not going to get the best sound. The compression driver is where is all starts. If you aren't using that best possible compression driver, how would you expect to get the best possible sound out of whatever 'flare' horn you are using. In the case of Klipsch, sorry but the business model comes into play, they are not using the best iterations of the compression driver that is produced. Actually, they use the cheapest they can get away with. In this day in age that is an abomination to my ears. Commercialized audio is called that for a reason. It is what it is. Kick me off the Forum. I could care less. The truth is known. I have the same Volti Audio VTrac in my Vittoras that Greg uses for both midranges. It is phenomenally smooth and clear. Never in your face.

Yes, my experiences have been very happily handled by VotiAudio, as I have happily acknowledged on this forum. Greg is the consumate genlleman in all of highend audio. I have done a ton of research in many ways. He is an incredible resource, and 'author' on this subject.

[pzannucci]

This is typical with many horns, especially larger ones.

Not all folded horn designs.

It does happen, especially in certain rooms with khorns. []

This sounds more like room and placement (along with some treatment wouldn't hurt).

As for the advertisement above, it probably would be good if it was helpful instead of sad (nicest way I can put it). [:@] Khorns can sound very good stock. I wouldn't call them high high end though they can make you "THERE" like few other speakers.

[Groomlakearea51]

2b:

Welcome to the Forum,

Sounds stupid, but yah never know..... pull them out and make sure that the wires are hooked up correctly. Trace the wires to the driver terminals, etc. If either an input wire, or the bass bin to crossover wire is backwards and thus out of phase (+ vs -), then the symptom can be weird midrange.

If you have another amp, just for the h*ell of it swap out the decware and see if the issue remains.

And as said previously, make absolutely sure that the bass bin is sealed into the corner properly. A "trick" is to unscrew the wing nuts that retain the tops to the bins, then push the bins into the corners. then align the top, and carefully pull the speaker out by the bass bin (Don't pull on the top!!). Then re-tighten the wing nuts and put them back in the corners.

Basically just start to eliminate the problems.

[H]

[Chris Robinson]

I have many Heritage speakers ... Belles, Cornwalls, Klipschorns, Heresies ... I love them all, but like so many here, I have tweaked them over the last 12 years and have come to a few "pareto-ized" conclusions (biggest bang for the money). I'll limit my comments to the Klipschorn since that is where your concerns lie.

First big improvement was to upgrade the crossovers. I went with Al Klappenberger's ALK crossovers (the Universal) because years ago, they were all that was available. As stated before, there are other options out there, most built by contributors to this forum. Al's crossovers are still working great, seven years later, but by far the most beautiful are Greg Roberts' crossovers. They are works of art, like all his products. You could put them on top of the cabinet for display. His website is voltiaudio.com ...

The crossovers let you dial back the midrange which has the positive benefit of bringing up the bass midrange. I attenuated the midrange by 9db and that was just about right for my ears.

Second big improvement was to swap out the midrange for a tractrix flare. Again, Greg @ Volti has a very affordable midrange option with the V-Trac. You can still use your K-55 compression driver with this setup by using his adapters. The native V-Trac has a 2" throat and your OEM K-55 is a 1", hence the need to taper the flare.

If you have a few extra dollars, go with his BMS 2" drivers. I've had these in my own Klipschorns when demo'ing his equipment, and the music coming from the Klipschorns was incredible. They were the best speakers I've ever heard, period, and while I haven't heard every speaker out there, I've heard a few.

In my humble opinion, improving the upgrades and midrange got me nearly all the way there (I'm saving for the BMS drivers which I'll hopefully do this Fall). Greg is a class act and a gentleman. Look through the restoration pages on his site too and you'll see the kind of work he does. He loves Klipsch products like all of us here. He's just made them better.

Feel free to send me a message if you want to discuss further offline.

Chris

[Chris Robinson]

I recently upgraded my Belle center channel (between the two already upgraded Klipschorns). You can see the arrangement in the photo.

Again, I used my ALK crossover with the existing K55 driver and the K-77 tweeter.

Chris

[Colin]

Is it the tweeter or the mid horn? If you block the tweeter (try a sock), does the mid still sound too sharp? Is the room loud or shouty? Is it still too sharp when you sit at the sweet spot? Do you have isolation platfrom on the tube amp? On the CD player? Try these things, although it probably is the crossover...

[Ironsave]

Straight up....this is your midrange/tweeter hitting you like a huricane. Mid bass and certainly not low bass dont burn your hair like a hot day in Hope Arkansas in August as you are describing. True enough? Improper horns are bad enough, but, pardon my french....when one is not using a very good level of compression driver, one is not going to get the best sound. The compression driver is where is all starts. If you aren't using that best possible compression driver, how would you expect to get the best possible sound out of whatever 'flare' horn you are using. In the case of Klipsch, sorry but the business model comes into play, they are not using the best iterations of the compression driver that is produced. Actually, they use the cheapest they can get away with. In this day in age that is an abomination to my ears. Commercialized audio is called that for a reason. It is what it is. Kick me off the Forum. I could care less. The truth is known. I have the same Volti Audio VTrac in my Vittoras that Greg uses for both midranges. It is phenomenally smooth and clear. Never in your face. Yes, my experiences have been very happily handled by VotiAudio, as I have happily acknowledged on this forum. Greg is the consumate genlleman in all of highend audio. I have done a ton of research in many ways. He is an incredible resource, and 'author' on this subject.

Tell that to the thousands of satisfied K Horn owners.

Good Sound is subjective and you are only one of many......

I am sure Greg is great. So is Bob Crites; Dean G and I hear NOS kicks butt as well.....

Yes, there are more expensive drivers available that can improve the sound.

The sound is really good already.

Klipsch still makes the best widely available speakers on the planet. Period.

[2BRNot2B]

Thanks to all for the great advice.

The most unpleasant sound appears to be coming from the mid-horn. Just too loud and shrill and not blended well, like the bright sun shining on your face. Certain recording are worse than others but there is a definate boost in the overall mid-range. The tweeters seem fine. It is a naturally bright room that I have warmed up with rugs, wall coverings, bulky items, etc. The sweet spot is still sharp. I have the tube amp on a 2" maple butcher block. SACD (Onkyo) player is on a metal rack. Turntable (VPI Classic) is on a 3" butcher block.Turntable/CD both have mid-range shrillness albeit the SACD player a bit more.

The Decware amp is brand spanking new, still in break in mode, about 40 hours on it. There are all kinds of knobs on the amp, bias control, impedence controls, bass, treble controls... I have tried all the amp settings with no remarkable sound changes. I have played the amp on much smaller Sound Dynamic 300ti's for several hours, it sounded sweet.

Some archived posts made it sound like one should start with the basics; check wiring, room, and bass cabinet fit. That somehow the bass cabinet fit has some effect on mid-range performance(???).

I'll fiddle around with the various tweeks in a few days. I'm getting my butt kicked at work right now....not much free time.

[BE36]

Thanks to all for the great advice.

The most unpleasant sound appears to be coming from the mid-horn. Just too loud and shrill and not blended well, like the bright sun shining on your face. Certain recording are worse than others but there is a definate boost in the overall mid-range. The tweeters seem fine. It is a naturally bright room that I have warmed up with rugs, wall coverings, bulky items, etc. The sweet spot is still sharp. I have the tube amp on a 2" maple butcher block. SACD (Onkyo) player is on a metal rack. Turntable (VPI Classic) is on a 3" butcher block.Turntable/CD both have mid-range shrillness albeit the SACD player a bit more.

The Decware amp is brand spanking new, still in break in mode, about 40 hours on it. There are all kinds of knobs on the amp, bias control, impedence controls, bass, treble controls... I have tried all the amp settings with no remarkable sound changes. I have played the amp on much smaller Sound Dynamic 300ti's for several hours, it sounded sweet.

Some archived posts made it sound like one should start with the basics; check wiring, room, and bass cabinet fit. That somehow the bass cabinet fit has some effect on mid-range performance(???).

I'll fiddle around with the various tweeks in a few days. I'm getting my butt kicked at work right now....not much free time.

I loved the Klipsh Heritage sound but I would get a Headache, literally, after a half hour or more of listening.

The K400 & k401 produce a distortion/ringing, others can better explain technically, that makes your ears bleed.

Tractrix horns solved the problem.

FYI - Klipsch uses the crossover to attenuate the Mid Range, the distortion in K400 Series makes the midrange sound louder then the woofer and tweeter. When you go to a non distorting Midrange horn you will need to turn up the midrange. Must be hard for you to believe right now.

The ALK have a feature that allows you to adjust the midrange, I raised over 6dB when I switched to Dave's Fastracs.

I have a extra pair Dave's Fastracs.

Fastracks are a drop in replacement for the K-401.

Tubes or the correct solid state amp can also help solve the problem.

Fastracs/Trackrix horns are fastest and easyest solution.

I assume you are not far from 14 and Woodward?

You can stop by and listen to my system and pickup some fastracs ALKs to demo in your system

Send me PM for Contact Details.

http://mysite.verizon.net/res12il11/id96.html

http://www.alkeng.com/trachorn.html

FYI - I do not get paid to endorse ALK, NOS Valves VRDs or Dave from Fastrac. I do it to save and promote Klipsh Heritage.

[dtel]

This is typical with many horns, especially larger ones.

Not all folded horn designs.

It does happen, especially in certain rooms with khorns.

You are definitely right about that, in 2006 we were looking for what design speaker we wanted for 2 Ch, We went to a pilgrimage to listen and around that time also went to different forum members homes listening. We heard Khorns in a few different rooms and the problem I had was it sounded really different in every room. I would say most of it was the bass that was different. I know much of that was the room but it left a big question mark as to how it would sound in our room, so we just waited a while and eventually ran across something different, i still wonder how Khorns would sound in this room ? But have no reason to find out anymore.

This sounds more like room and placement (along with some treatment wouldn't hurt).

As for the advertisement above, it probably would be good if it was helpful instead of sad (nicest way I can put it). Khorns can sound very good stock. I wouldn't call them high high end though they can make you "THERE" like few other speakers.

I agree 100%, that whole thing gets on my nerves, but I will behave. [:#]

[Don Richard]

....when one is not using a very good level of compression driver, one is not going to get the best sound. The compression driver is where is all starts. If you aren't using that best possible compression driver, how would you expect to get the best possible sound out of whatever 'flare' horn you are using.

The K55V (Atlas PD5V) is about the only 1" driver in current manufacture that can go down below 200 Hz and still deliver enough output. It has to go that low in order to use a 400 Hz crossover point. If you know of a "better" mid driver that would work in a Khorn, tell us about it.

Sometimes the metal K400 horn can ring in the 2-4 kHz range. This can be solved with rope caulking or other damping methods if that is the problem. A forum search will turn up lots of information on that subject.

2 inch drivers can be made to work well, but then you will need to change the horn and crossover and take the time to tune the system to work with those components. At that point it might be better to go with an active crossover and triamp the system along with delaying the MF and HF to the woofer for time alignment. This would be an ultimate setup that would allow for greatly enhanced adjustability and performance.