Anyone else notice this with RB-61 Vs. Rb-61II?

[robc1976]

I just got my last pair of RB-61II to replace my RB-61 and ran Audyssey and with the RB-61 Audyssey set them to -7.5 and it sets the RB-61II to -4.5 wich is a 3Db difference. I noticed with the RB-61II they have more detail/crisper and I wonder why there is a difference of 3Db....the Rb-61II actually seem louder so I was a bit surprised. Both sets of speakers are in the same location exactly with ISO series Auralex speaker-dudes. Any thoughts guys? any other difference's you have noticed? Needless to say they sound great!

[Heritage_Head]

They use different drivers and horns but 3 db is a lot so I’m

not sure. []

[robc1976]

They use different drivers and horns but 3 db is a lot so Im

not sure.

They also use a different crossover, I had them side by side and the RB-61II are louder so I am not sure what its going on lol!

[Zen Traveler]

I would be real surprised if they were that much different and thought they used the exact same drivers and only tweaked the crossover. Fwiw, Klipsch took the specs down off the originals on the website but have the RB-61ii rated at 95 dB/1 meter.

[CECAA850]

I would be real surprised if they were that much different and thought they used the exact same drivers and only tweaked the crossover. Fwiw, Klipsch took the specs down off the originals on the website but have the RB-61ii rated at 95 dB/1 meter.

The cut sheet is under the RB-61 system and they are rated the same as the II's, 95dB @ 2.83V / 1m.

[robc1976]

I would be real surprised if they were that much different and thought they used the exact same drivers and only tweaked the crossover. Fwiw, Klipsch took the specs down off the originals on the website but have the RB-61ii rated at 95 dB/1 meter.

The cut sheet is under the RB-61 system and they are rated the same as the II's, 95dB @ 2.83V / 1m.

That is correct, that is why I was so surprised.

[StephenM]

Let me get this straight, at one point you had run Audyssey with the RB-61s, and it set their trim level to -7.5dB. Later, you replaced them with RB-61 IIs, and Audyssey set their trim level to -4.5dB. And now you're wondering why the II's seem louder? If I'm understanding this right, I'd point at Audyssey for that discrepancy. I've found in my room with the exact same main speakers in the exact same position with the exact same main listening position, that the trim levels can vary by over 4dB on the mains. IOW, it's entirely possible that Audyssey just decided to throw you for a loop.

[robc1976]

Let me get this straight, at one point you had run Audyssey with the RB-61s, and it set their trim level to -7.5dB. Later, you replaced them with RB-61 IIs, and Audyssey set their trim level to -4.5dB. And now you're wondering why the II's seem louder? If I'm understanding this right, I'd point at Audyssey for that discrepancy. I've found in my room with the exact same main speakers in the exact same position with the exact same main listening position, that the trim levels can vary by over 4dB on the mains. IOW, it's entirely possible that Audyssey just decided to throw you for a loop.

No, Audyssey set the RB-61II's 3DB louder and I wondered why? I then put both speakers at 0Db and the RB-61II's seemed much louder and clearer...so I was wondering why it sets the trims the way it did....I woulfd have thought the RB-61 would have been turned down more not up?

[Zen Traveler]

I then put both speakers at 0Db and the RB-61II's seemed much louder and clearer...

Did you use an SPL meter or were you doing it by ear? I really can't imagine there would be much difference in sound and there shouldn't be any in SPL.

[StephenM]

Well as noted, at least in my case and possibly in yours, Audyssey isn't exactly perfect.

As far as the differences when both speakers are set to the same level: have you measured the difference with an SPL meter or anything? Other than that, I would suggest that manufacturing tolerances could lead to some variations, especially since we're talking about speakers years apart.

[robc1976]

I then put both speakers at 0Db and the RB-61II's seemed much louder and clearer...

Did you use an SPL meter or were you doing it by ear? I really can't imagine there would be much difference in sound and there shouldn't be any in SPL.

I didn't do that yet, but there is a VERY big difference in sound quality and i was a bit surprised, even my wife noticed it.....sounds are much more smooth,crisp...I think maybe these image a lot better. Whatever it is it is a improvment to me at least!

[Rich_Guy]

Even if you change nothing and run Audyssey several times you will find the result will vary some and not always repeat identically. I would use an SPL meter, I have found my SPL meter to be much more accurate than using Audyssey to set my speaker levels.

I usually run Audyssey several times until I feel happiest with the results, then I always make two manual changes. First I reset my crossover settings to what I prefer which on my system are everything set to small, fronts and center set at 60hz and surrounds set at 70hz, LFE at 120hz, Second I reset my speaker levels using my SPL meter.

[robc1976]

Even if you change nothing and run Audyssey several times you will find the result will vary some and not always repeat identically. I would use an SPL meter, I have found my SPL meter to be much more accurate than using Audyssey to set my speaker levels.

I usually run Audyssey several times until I feel happiest with the results, then I always make two manual changes. First I reset my crossover settings to what I prefer which on my system are everything set to small, fronts and center set at 60hz and surrounds set at 70hz, LFE at 120hz, Second I reset my speaker levels using my SPL meter.

I agree with the above, but my surrounds are always at the same level...fronts, wides, heights and espeacially the sub are usually different by at least 1Db or more. I usually go up 1Db on my fronts and heights and 1.5 Db on the center. I was listening to music and these RB-61II have a lot better sound IMHO.

[nezff]

how are you placing your mic? seat backs up or down?

Audyssey set you speaker levels to what they should be. The audyssey mic will be much better than your spl meter. Why run audyssey and then use a spl meter to set them another way. doesnt make sense.

I cant imagine that you can hold your spl meter mic and audyssey mic in the exact same posistion.

[StephenM]

Audyssey set you speaker levels to what they should be. The audyssey mic will be much better than your spl meter. Why run audyssey and then use a spl meter to set them another way. doesnt make sense.

Suffice it to say in my experience running back to back runs while experimenting with subwoofer settings, I found that Audyssey gave me a 4.5dB variation on the trim levels of my mains between runs. My primary seating position, upon which trim levels are based, did not move, nor did my technique of setting up the mic. In the end, I got a result that accorded reasonably well (within 2dB) with what my SPL meter was reading. However, that experience disabused me of the notion that Audyssey is infallible.

[nezff]

I use xt32 and it is very accurate

[Rich_Guy]

how are you placing your mic? seat backs up or down?

Audyssey set you speaker levels to what they should be. The audyssey mic will be much better than your spl meter. Why run audyssey and then use a spl meter to set them another way. doesnt make sense.

I cant imagine that you can hold your spl meter mic and audyssey mic in the exact same posistion.

I've done considerable research on Audyssey and also taken some special recommendations by Chris founder of Audyssey as well as have a lot of experience with adjusting my own systems. The results are a very nice natural sounding well balanced HT and much more musical 2 channel.

I use Audyssey for what it does in the background and I also keep it's speaker distances, I change crossover settings and speaker levels which makes a considerable improvement over Audyssey's initial settings.

For Audyssey the mic is placed just as Audyssey recommends (see below), something many people get wrong. All positions should be used and you don't actually use other seats in a room, the positions are all based off the primary seating position. The mic is on a tripod at approximately ear height (slightly above for a direct path with no obstruction by seat).

Audyssey sets my front three speakers to large, it has been awhile so I am not positive but I think two of the surrounds are also set as large and the other two set at small with the crossover at 70hz. I prefer all my speakers set to small to use crossover settings at all speakers. Currently I run my front three at 60hz and my four surrounds at 70hz.

I have found that Audyssey is not nearly as accurate for speaker levels as my own SPL meter and my system sounds far better when I reset the levels using my SPL meter on the tripod in #1 main position. This sounds far more balanced and natural and also improves the surrounds considerably since Audyssey sets them extremely low. With my SPL meter the speakers sound very well balanced. I always prefer to zero my center channel level and adjust the rest to match the center channel.

Klipsch speakers being as efficient as they are can play havoc on
Audyssey and often can cause Audyssey to run off its level settings
bottoming out to the maximum negative speaker level settings (basically
run off the charts). A recommendation by Chris of Audyssey which helps
Audyssey with its settings and one of the tricks I use which I think adds a little warmer sound
and works well with Klipsch speakers is using inline attenuators. Using
the attenuators tames any harshness and gives a more detailed smoother sound, they bring out a warmer more refined detail. Using attenuators also allows Audyssey to work in its correct range and not bottom out at the maximum negative speaker levels.

I use -15db
attenuators between my processor and amps, I use them on my XLR
connections (RCA are also available). I then set my volume control about
15 db higher than without the attenuators. This does not decrease the
total volume it just adds more richness and detail, a blacker floor noise with better low volume detail.

Here are a few links on using attenuators

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0803/rothwell.htm


http://www.rothwellelectronics.co.uk/html/attenuators.html


http://www.rothwellelectronics.co.uk/html/hi-fi_plus_review.html


http://www.rothwellelectronics.co.uk/html/customer_feedback.html

The
links come from the Rothwell brand but there are other brands as well
this is what I use
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?PartNumber=240-414


XLR type attenuators



RCA type attenuators

Audyssey mic placement.

http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq/how-to

[Zen Traveler]

Audyssey sets my front three speakers to large, it has been awhile so I am not positive but I think two of the surrounds are also set as large and the other two set at small with the crossover at 70hz. I prefer all my speakers set to small to use crossover settings at all speakers. Currently I run my front three at 60hz and my four surrounds at 70hz.

...Klipsch speakers being as efficient as they are can play havoc on Audyssey and often can cause Audyssey to run off its level settings bottoming out to the maximum negative speaker level settings (basically run off the charts). A recommendation by Chris of Audyssey which helps Audyssey with its settings and one of the tricks I use which I think adds a little warmer sound and works well with Klipsch speakers is using inline attenuators. Using the attenuators tames any harshness and gives a more detailed smoother sound, they bring out a warmer more refined detail. Using attenuators also allows Audyssey to work in its correct range and not bottom out at the maximum negative speaker levels.

Fwiw, it's your Onkyo that sets your speakers to Large (or Full Range) and not Audyssey. They have always recommend going back and setting your speakers to Small and establishing a crossover. Secondly, your comment about Klipsch Speakers playing "havoc" on Audyssey is interesting given that the initial experiments with Tom Holman and Audyssey involved Klipsch speakers...Do you have a link to the conversation you had with chris on this matter?

[nezff]

Rich, I had a similar conversation with Chris on facebook. He told me to lower my seat backs when running Audyssey XT32. Audyssey also sets my RF63s and RC64 to 60hz-70hz. I did not adjust my speakers with my SPL meter this last time because Chris was explaining that the Audyssey mic is much more accurate that a ratshack meter. I do have a calibrated SPL meter from one of the guys over at AV forums. I used to be a stickler for using my SPL meter right after Audyssey. You just have to make sure you take mesurements from the EXACT same position as the other mic.

[Rich_Guy]

Fwiw, it's your Onkyo that sets your speakers to Large (or Full Range) and not Audyssey. They have always recommend going back and setting your speakers to Small and establishing a crossover.

Yes this is correct, it is the receiver/processor which does this while running Audyssey and Audyssey does recommend setting (resetting) speakers to small and using a crossover setting.

I have no links available right now on using the attenuators, I will see if I can find some of the info on this.

If running Audyssey sets all your speakers to the maximum negative level often -12 (but this varies by manufacturer) then the attenuators can help Audyssey work correctly. I found the attenuators to have many nice benefits for sound quality.