RF-7 Question

[Flicker]

Hello,

I just signed up today, but I have been following along some of the discussions for the past few weeks. I have been learning as much as possible, trying to make educated decisions about my upcoming purchases, but have hit a wall (a few, actually), so I am seeking advice. Also, I was so impressed with the feedback people were receiving about their questions that I just wanted to become part of the community. Please bare with me; I have several questions scattered throughout this post, and I appreciate feedback on any of them, but I wanted "the big picture" available to anyone willing to take the time. If you do respond to any questions, would you please elaborate and explain WHY you feel the way you do, so I may better understand?

First off, here is a little background about what I "was" trying to accomplish:

I have an 18' x 10' finished basement that I want to turn into a home theater room (temporarily, as I plan on moving in a year or two), and I wish to have a smaller set up in my upstairs living room (mostly for music, stereo surround through the television, and basic entertaining purposes [nothing too elaborate]). Eventually, I plan on creating a true, dedicated home theater room (after I move), and I would like to be able to utilize both systems, possibly combining them into one larger package. In the meantime, I want to give myself a nice birthday present.

I have been looking at Klipsch Reference Series II speakers. I purchased a whole home theater package of Klipsch Synergy speakers, and before I even took them out of the box, I found a local electronic store (a certified Klipsch seller [confirmed by Klipsch's customer service representative] that was selling new Reference II speakers, along with some older Reference series speakers (the latter at a nicely discounted price), so I returned the the Synergy speakers because I fell in love with the Reference towers.

Here is what the salesperson suggested (along with prices) based on my taste for certain speakers and what they had in stock; the following "was" my plan:

-----Upstairs, I wanted to use 2 RF-82II ($540/each) either by themselves, along with an RC-52 ($200), or coupled with the RC-52 and 2 RS-42s ($150/each) as a 5.0 surround sound system, mostly for music/surround sound feel, but not really for movies and true Home Theater--my current receiver is an Onkyo TX-NR 609 ($350 [brand new]). I wanted to save as much money as possible on the upstairs system to I can really go all out downstairs, but the price for the older model reference speakers just seems too good to pass up--am I wrong? Is it a waste of money? Will they even work together? Can I use two RF-82II towers and an older RC-52 just for watching tv?

Downstairs, I wanted to utilize a 5.1 system (for now) and use 2 RF-7II ($1440/each) as my fronts, 2 RF-82II ($540/each) as my surrounds, an older model RC-64 ($650) as my center, and I am still torn with the subwoofer at the moment. The salesman suggested a Velodyne DPS-12 ($400), and to use the Yamaha RX-V1065 ($600) as my receiver.

Many of these products a left-over models (some from a few years ago), and I am FINE with it, but I wonder if the prices are good or do they just seem heavily discounted? Can I mix Reference II with previous Reference speakers. Can I use 4 towers in an 18'x 10' room, or is it overkill? I never intend to "drop the hammer" on the volume control (not in my present living situation, neighbors are too close), but I am now concerned about NOT pumping enough power (wattage?) to my speakers--I was told underpowering them will probably lead to damaging their tweeters. Do I need more than a 105-watt receiver to power 150-watt RF-82II or 250-watt RF-7II speakers? If so, do I buy a 140-watt receiver for three times the price, or CAN I simple buy a power amp or something of that nature to solve that problem?

Thank you to anyone willing to listen or comment.

[Pete H]

Welcome to the madness. Please fasten your seatbelt and hold on because it can be a fast, furious and expensive ride. You my friend have a lot of questions and can look at this many different ways and are going to get many different opinions, all of which are just that because we can think of lots of different ways to spend YOUR money. Here's my .02 worth.

Based on what you said about moving in 2 years and upstairs if really just for watching t.v. and maybe an occasional movie and to listen to some noise when you're not down in the basement, I would handle it this way;

1. Set your real budget for this first step and stick to the guidelines you set or your options are going to get crazy.

2. I would focus completely on getting the best major components and speakers for the basement and let this be the heart of your future system.

3. I would probably look at the used market for some selections, as an example, you could purchase a good sub for upstairs and scale down the other speakers to bookshelf speakers that could later be incorporated as additional surrounds in your ultimate system, but still be extremely effective for music and movies with the right sub, which by the way should be matched up IMHO with the sub for downstairs and then you can utilize those together for your future system or have 2 great stand alone subs.

4. If you're going to invest any kind of money to get started, and it sounds like you are, I would jump right into separates for downstairs and I might even consider that for upstairs (in the used market, or with amp matching with the downstairs system), again, looking at the future and having amps that can be integrated into one system is a nice option to have.

5. If you consider separates I would look at trying to get a great 9.1 or 9.2 processor, again, thinking down the road.

6. I would make sure that I've got plenty of power to drive the mains and center as they will remain the heart of the system now and in the future. The 7's are great speakers but they need to be driven properly to take advantage of their full potential. I haven't heard the RC64, but many on here can comment on that but I believe it can be a center that will keep up with your system for quite some time.

7. Depending on your skill level the subs might be a good DIY project or a kit build depending on the main focus of your subs (music or HT or if you're looking for something that does both well but neither best.

I could go on, but others will offer different ideas and I'm just trying to let you know what some of your options are that may serve you better now and down the road.

[Flicker]

Pete, thanks for all the information, and I like the idea of "focusing" my energy and money on making the downstairs awesome. A couple quick questions about your suggestions, however: first of all, how do I get spaces between my text when I post??? I don't want a page-long text box--nobody will wanna read that, and I cant get a line space to show on the post.

---TWO: what are "separates?" Do you mean separate pieces, not HT in a box?

---THREE: What is amp matching?

---FOUR: What "IS" enough power to drive the RF-7IIs?/ Can you recommend a minimum-wattage receiver? and/or amp?

__Can I just hook up two RS-42s upstairs and use them as stereo speakers for music and tv?--that would save me a grand right there.

I am apprehensive about buying used (not comfortable spending thousands sans warranty. And, I could not build a birdhouse, let alone a subwoofer, although I ONLY want a sub for HT, not really so much for music.

Thanks, Pete.

[Schu]

you got a lot of questions... GOOD!

It's a personal choice, but I would have slightly less concern about buying used klipsch... they are very well made. personally, I ONLY buy used.

since you are starting to get into that 600-700 range as far as integrated receivers go, take a look at the SC series Pioneer elites... I have seen SC35's go for about 600 and change and with the ICE amp's they are about as black as black can be... black equals zero background noise.

also, talking about amps. output per channel is really one one component... and for klipsch, maybe not even the most important component.

separates means separate processor/pre amp/amp... three separate components instead of one integrated unit/component.

[russ69]

I'll start with a simple answer. Buy the best pair of speakers you can afford. In the Klipsch lineup, that can be RFs or Heritage, it's your choice. That's a good place to start and you can add more as you go along. Run that for a year or two then you can think about other changes.

[Flicker]

Thanks for your to-the-point suggestions (always appreciated). When you mention using the Pioneer Elite SC35 with the ICE amp, I started looking at some of the specs. The Pioneer has a THD rating of .09%--the Yamaha RX-V1065 I was looking at for a similar price was only .06% Distortion. Now, I don't know much, but that seems like a huge difference (one and a half times more distortion) from what I believe to be an important component of a receiver, right? You said using it with the ICE amp would almost delete background noise--is that the same as harmonic distortion?--but is the ICE a company name or type of technology; I had trouble finding it online. I understand there is a difference between an amp and pre-amp (what it is I do not know) but what is a processor? Where does a power amp fit into this equation? I assume it IS better to have separate components than a simple integrated receiver, but why is it better??? Thanks.

[Schu]

.06 is NOT half of .09... that's pretty funny math there.

let me ask you something... do you think you can discern .03% out of 100%?

[StephenM]

is the ICE a company name or type of technology; I had trouble finding it online

http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/en/company/who/

he Pioneer has a THD rating of .09%--the Yamaha RX-V1065 I was looking at for a similar price was only .06% Distortion. Now, I don't know much, but that seems like a huge difference (one and a half times more distortion) from what I believe to be an important component of a receiver, right?

Either THD figure is generally considered acceptable for an amplifier/receiver. Presuming my math isn't too far off, in either case the sum of the harmonic distortion will be ~60dB down from the fundamental.

[Marvel]

first of all, how do I get spaces between my text when I post??? I don't want a page-long text box--nobody will wanna read that, and I cant get a line space to show on the post.

Welcome to the craziness!

You are probably using Safari on Mac... the forum software doesn't work well with it, but there are a couple of different things you can do.

1. You can switch to Firefox... It will put in the spaces when you hit the return/enter key

2. You can add simple html code when you want a break.

If you put in a < br > with no spaces between, when displayed there will be a break in the line. Not too difficult, and you can copy, then paste, again and again foreach time you want it.

I think there may be some problems with Google Chrome as well.

Bruce

[Flicker]

Hey, Stephen, thanks for the link; I will check it out! I don't know much about THD %, but I spoke with a Klipsch representative, along with another salesperson from a Best Buy Magnolia center, and both told me the difference between .06% and .09% would certainly be noticeable--something to the effect of .06% or .07% is NOT distinguishable to the human ear. What does that "~60db down from the fundamental thing mean?"

[Flicker]

SHU,

I thought this was a friendly forum where individuals could discuss such technical audio/ home theater issues like adults. I guess not. As for the answer to your question, I have no clue if I can "discern .03% out of 100%;" all I know is a Klipsch Technical Support Representative, along with a Best Buy Magnolia Representative, told me the same thing: "A THD rating of '.06% or less' is NOT distinguishable to the human ear;" therefore, anything above said level would be noticeable, so I just thought it makes more sense to buy a better product, unless I am wrong (which is ALL I asked in the first place), a product whose THD rating is low enough that you could not pick up its distortion. Incidentally, when you took that shot at my math skills and said "pretty funny math," did you mean "funny strange or funny ha, ha?" Either way, I assume you meant accurate, right? I guess your character is as well developed as YOUR math abilities: ".09% IS, in fact, EXACTLY 'one and a half' times ,06%--" grab a calculator, Mr. Wizard. Now, THAT is funny (sad funny). Thanks for your advice.

[ricktate]

Im sure SHU didnt mean it that way,,,,and we are always poking fun at each other dont be so serious on your 4th post till you learn all our personalites. But welcome to the forum and hope we can help you looks like they have helped you already to me??? Rick

[StephenM]

I spoke with a Klipsch representative, along with another salesperson from a Best Buy Magnolia center, and both told me the difference between .06% and .09% would certainly be noticeable

Perhaps with measuring equipment; it's doubtful to be the case with human ears, with real world music, with real speakers that will add orders of magnitude more distortion, interfacing with a real room that messes things up even more.

What does that "~60db down from the fundamental thing mean?"

Suppose you have a 100dB 1kHz (fundamental) tone. If you had 0.1% THD (which equates to 60dB down), it means the harmonic distortion (second harmonic through nth harmonic) would sum together to be 40dB. Due to the masking effect, such small levels of distortion are nigh impossible to hear. If you enter real world material, it becomes considerably harder, as it is naturally composed of fundamentals and harmonics (timbre). Suppose you have a signal consisting of a 100dB tone at 1kHz and 70dB at 2kHz, and are running this signal through an amplifier that has a 0.1% THD, all of which is dumped onto the 2nd harmonic. The 100dB 1kHz tone would be unchanged, and the 70dB tone at 2kHz would have 40dB added to it from the harmonic distortion from the 1kHz tone. 70dB + 40dB in phase = 70.3dB.

[StephenM]

Just to answer a few of your other queries:

I understand there is a difference between an amp and pre-amp (what it is I do not know) but what is a processor? Where does a power amp fit into this equation?

For all intents and purposes, a processor is a modern day preamplifier. It's job is to switch between sources, adjust volume, and handle any processing of audio and video content, and send the final signal to the amplifier. The amplifier takes the voltage from the preamplifier, and amplifies it by a fixed amount (the gain) into a signal your speakers can use.

I assume it IS better to have separate components than a simple integrated receiver, but why is it better??? Thanks.

There are pros and cons to either approach. A simple integrated receiver is obviously...simple. One box, that's it; and with the performance of today's models (at least once you move past the $100 Sony's and the like), they make a very compelling case. Frankly, once you get into the higher end models, there is rather little to improve upon.

The draw of separate components is modularity. A good amplifier that you buy today can easily last over a decade. A good receiver that you buy today is outdated in a couple years. The modular setup allows one to simply upgrade the processor to get the latest and greatest without the additional expense of upgrading the whole package as you would with a receiver (although with the pricing on most processors, you're not saving much). In addition, because you've got separate boxes for everything, the potential exists for a lower noise floor and less crosstalk (although I would argue that modern receivers of reasonable quality perform sufficiently well in these categories that it isn't much of an issue). There is also the matter of power. There is a limit as to how much one can expect from a single box that is also home to a processor and tuner when you want it to drive 7+ channels. With separate amplifiers, you could potentially buy 7+ monoblock amplifiers and have power coming out your ears (or I guess, into your ears!).

[derrickdj1]

Pioneer avr are are excellent in the mid to elite price range for Klipsch speakers. Read this forum and see how many people are having problems with theYammies compared with Pioneer avr. The Elite Pioneers have enough power in all the channels to drive your speakers with out clipping with music or HT. I have never clipped my speakers with the Pioneer Elite SC 35. Even at reference level, things are clear, crisp and not strained.

Klipsch- Power, Detail and Emotion

Pioneer -Sound, Vision and Soul

Pioneer+Klipsch= Harmony and Great Entertainment

[Flicker]

Hey, you have a point there. Most people have been pretty helpful, and I could have taken that comment the wrong way, but there seemed to be definite pretentiousness in his comment--I'm all for having a good laugh, but insulting someone that is "trying" to understand and is "asking" for help is still pretty low in my book. Anywho, I was taking a road trip that day to look at some speakers, and I was just trying to get the best advice possible before I left. Do you have any suggestions concerning my setup?

[Flicker]

Derrick, is the Pioneer Elite SC-35 a really good receiver? I am just concerned about spending several thousand dollars on speakers alone and having issues with blowing out the tweeters. Even the Best Buy Magnolia salesman suggested I use separates, even though they did not sell them there, as opposed to buying a $1500.00 receiver. You really NEVER had any problems running your RF-7IIs with just a receiver?

[Flicker]

Derrick, as your name implies, I take it that you are a DJ? Therefore, I assume you play your speakers at a louder-than-normal volume--is that accurate? Given that, are you referring to Reference towers (RF-82 or RF-7)? If so, since I don't plan to really play them hard, maybe I can get away with only a really good receiver. You think that is a safe play? Thanks.

[Flicker]

Thanks for the explanation--very helpful and informative, Stephen.

[Flicker]

Hey, thanks, Bruce. I am using a pain-in-the-butt MAC via Safari--good call! I will give it a try; thanks again!